Kusala/Akusala and Punna/Pāpa Kamma

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    • #16353
      AngeloPeiris
      Participant

      I have a question regarding Punna Kamma and Kusala Kamma as explained in the page titled “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma”. In that it is mentioned that some Punna Kamma can be Kusala Kamma too.

      However it is the Kukkuravatika Sutta that talks about black karma and white karma, which I thought to represent Papa Kamma and Punna Kamma respectively, with the Karma that is neither black nor white being the real Kusala Kamma, leading towards Nirvana. With that interpretation the Punna Kamma and Kusala Kamma seemed mutually exclusive.

      Could you please clarify?

    • #16354
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Welcome to the forum, Angelo!

      This is a bit deep sutta. I need to think about how to formulate the answer. I may have to write a new post. Thank you for the excellent question.

    • #16355
      AngeloPeiris
      Participant

      The way I understood that Sutta is that all ‘Black’, ‘White’ and ‘Black and White’ kamma are Akusal, and only the kamma that is ‘Neither Black nor White’ is Kusal.

      I am not at all an expert on this, and stand very much to be corrected. Just writing my understanding so that it can be corrected by your reply.

    • #16393
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Just published two posts related to this question. These two posts are VERY important since they also clarify kammakkhaya (and removal of asava/anusaya and gati):

      Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya

      Kukkuravatika Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 57) – Kammakkhaya

    • #16394
      inflib
      Participant

      Hālo,

      Mārayi veb põst! Bohoma stūtiyi, Lal!

      Would the following anāpānasati bhāvanā done throughout the day be considered kusala kamma because it is eliminating defilements?

      As asavas, anusaya due to vipaka arise, I’ve been focusing on the effects of the outcomes (kamma beeja, more vipaka, another bhava like this one…oof!) of allowing the thoughts about that vipaka to continue. I’ve noticed this eliminating defilements.

      For example, at work today while stocking a particular food item (peanut butter covered pretzels), I felt a craving arise. So instantly, I thought about how the bonds (kamma raga) would grow stronger if I allowed the “wheeling”/abhisankhara process create new kamma beeja and the stuff for a new “bhava”. Also, thoughts of how it is so not worth coming back here for peanut butter pretzels and other thoughts like “feeding the fire”, etc. Now, thoughts of eating those pretzels isn’t creating the asava.

      So, would this be a form of kusala kamma as it is eliminating defilements? Does it matter that I’m the only one benefiting from it?

      It’s even working in tough/tearful situations with a little longer contemplation. There’s definitely a loosening of the bonds of attachment to situations and persons.

    • #16395
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Please see the post
      Kukkuravatika Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 57) – Kammakkhaya

      #11:
      “…Being touched by such contacts, he feels sukha and dukha feelings interchangeably, as in the case of human,deva, and vinipatika realms. …”

      What are vinipatika realms?

    • #16396
      Tobias G
      Participant

      @ inflib: What you describe is a mixture of satipattana and anapana bhavana. It removes defilements and thus it is kusala kamma. This should be done the whole day. After a while one will get rid of craving for various things (ragakkhayo Nibbanan). With metta bhavana one will ged rid of hate (dosakkhayo Nibbanan). With learning and comprehending the Buddha Dhamma incl. tilakkhana one will remove ignorance about the true nature of this “bigger world” (mohakkhayo Nibbanan).

    • #16397
      SengKiat
      Moderator

      @Tobias G said: What are vinipatika realms?

      Vinipātika,(adj.) [fr.vinipāta] destined to suffer in purgatory,liable to punishment after death.

    • #16398
      Johnny_Lim
      Participant

      Lal mentioned: “9. Khammakkhayāya kamma (or kamma that lead to kammakkhaya) or kusala kamma do not directly remove existing kamma beeja. They lead to a state of mind where existing kamma beeja are UNABLE to bring vipāka.”

      Does it imply that during the last moments of death of an Arahant, he/she would not see any nimitta? Or does he/she still see nimitta but is unfazed by it? I would think the former is what is meant by existing kamma beeja unable to bring vipāka.

    • #16400
      Lal
      Keymaster

      @inflib: Yes. The Buddha said that the best way to overcome cravings is to think about their bad consequences.

      inflib said: “So, would this be a form of kusala kamma as it is eliminating defilements? Does it matter that I’m the only one benefiting from it?”
      – Of course. Each person can only cleanse one’s own mind.

      Johnny_Lim said: “Does it imply that during the last moments of death of an Arahant, he/she would not see any nimitta? Or does he/she still see nimitta but is unfazed by it?”.
      – It is the latter. An arammana (or nimitta) comes to the mind based on what types of kamma beeja are there. An Arahant would not grasp any.
      A Sotapanna‘s mind would not grasp any nimitta corresponding to a birth in the lowest four realms.

    • #21472
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Hi Lal,
      please see the post Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya,
      #11:
      “…A purified mind of an Arahant will not have either sōbhana or asōbhana cetasika. The “mental hooks” are due to those cetasika….”

      Do the sobhana cetasika really cease? I thought the citta will be sobhana, but only functional.

    • #21475
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Hi Tobias,
      Thanks for pointing out the error. I just revised the statement as follows:

      “A purified mind of an Arahant would have maximized sōbhana cetasika, including paññā (wisdom). Once that is done one would not grasp any bhava at the cuti-patsandhi moment, since one has fully comprehended the futility of any existence in the 31 realms”.

    • #23848
      Johnny_Lim
      Participant

      Is pina and pawa another word in Sinhalese for punna kamma and pāpa kamma, respectively?

    • #23849
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes, Johnny. That is right.

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