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“Lal, do i understand you correct that you teach that Nibbana is something individual, personal and local?”
Nibbana is ragakkhaya, dosakkhaya, mohakkhaya.
That is what is in the Tipitaka and that is what I have explained.“It is just the cognitive proces (or mind) definitely freed from lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa and amoha?”
Yes.
“Why does a personal lifestream have no beginning? It is has an end why does it not have a beginning?”
I have explained in this post that according to the principle of Causality, there cannot be a beginning to life. The Buddha kept recalling his past lives and could not see a beginning.
What you say is exactly right.
This is why some people are unable to get the correct results by repeating the “rice experiment”:
“The Rice Experiment (Video)“.Experiments on inert matter (most scientific experiments belong to this category) can be correctly repeated by anyone. Those do not involve the “mental state” of the experimenter. Of course, the experimenter needs to competent in carrying out the steps involved.
But in the “rice experiment” or the “water experiment” that you referred to, the mental state of the experimenter plays a key role. One has to “put one’s mind into it”, rather than just following the necessary steps mechanically.
Our state of the mind CAN affect mindless things like rice, water, and plants. There is an interesting book, “The Secret Life of Plants” by P. Tompkins and C. Bird. They describe some interesting experiments with plants. But others have objected by saying that when they tried to repeat those experiments, they did not get the same results.
– That is because they were mechanically repeating the experiments, just like other scientific experiments.
– These experiments involve “mind power”.Siebe wrote: “The sutta’s also talk about: …” an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned” (Udana 8.3)
Does this not go against causality?”No. It does not. I have explained this before, but since this is very important, I will lay it out one more time. If there are any questions, please ask them now after reading the following carefully.
1. There are six causes for things to arise in this world: lobha, dosa, moha and alobha, adosa, amoha.
– Akusala kamma (immoral actions) done with lobha, dosa, moha give rise to births in the four lowest realms or apayas.
– Punna Kamma (moral deeds) done with alobha, adosa, amoha give rise to births in the human and higher (good) realms.
2. However, even births in good realms do not solve the problem of suffering, because based on one’s temptations, one could do kamma with lobha, dosa, moha and then be born in the apayas.
3. When one comprehends 1 and 2 above, one would have realized the anicca nature: That existence in any realm WILL NOT bring permanent happiness, or more correctly it will not REMOVE future suffering.
4. When one understands that, thereafter any punna kamma will automatically become KUSALA kammma.
– KUSALA kamma are better than PUNNA kamma. Instead of leading to rebirth in the good realms, they lead one to Nibbana.
– This is a point that is hard for many people to understand. With the comprehension of Tillakkhana (that anicca nature leads to dukkha, which in turn leads to anatta or helplessness), one AUTOMATICALLY does kamma without any (hidden) expectation of a “good return in terms of good birth”.
– That is because one has understood that even births in the good realms WILL NOT solve the problem of future suffering.5. When one proceeds this way, lobha, dosa, moha are removed in four stages: Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant.
– By the time one gets to the Arahant stage, one has removed lobha, dosa, moha completely.
– By that time, one has also removed any contamination of alobha, adosa, amoha as well. That is because one would have seen the futility of getting births in those good realms also.6. Therefore, Nibbana (Arahanthood) is attained by REMOVING ALL SIX ROOT CAUSES.
– However, since an Arahant still has a live physical body, previous kamma vipaka can still result in bring bodily pains like injuries or body pains or sicknesses. However, any mental suffering would be gone.
– Then that Arahant attains Parinibbana (full Nibbaba) when the physical body dies at his death.
– AT that point, full Nibbana is realized and NO MORE SUFFERING will ever materialize.7. It is important to understand that Nibbana IS NOT REACHED due to causes. Nibbana is reached when all six root causes are REMOVED.
– That is what is meant by asankata, unborn, unmade, unconditioned, etc. for Nibbana.
– On the other hand sankata (things in this world) arise due to those six causes. Words like born, made, conditioned, are associated with sankata.So, it is very important to understand the difference between punna kamma and kusala kamma.
– Until one comprehends the anicca nature, all moral deeds are just PUNNA kamma. After comprehension of Tilakkhana, any moral deeds will automatically be KUSALA kamma.
See, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma“.
P.S. Today, I re-wrote the above post.Hi Tobias,
Of course, those who believe in a cReator think that a “First Cause” is necessary.
But that idea of a “First Cause” is not an accepted theory or principle. It is made up by those believers! As I explained, it runs against the Principle of Causality. That is the point.
P.S. Please post a link a to the relevant post at puredhamma.net. Here the post in question is: “Wrong View of Creationism (and Eternal Future Life) – Part 2“.
Also, the title of the post should be started with “Post on xxxxx”. Otherwise, there could be problems with the search box. I have changed the topic of this thread so that it will be clear.
Thanks for the video.
Yes. There are some indications that the Big Bang theory could be wrong. There is some evidence of stars older than the Big Bang:
“Big Bang Theory Questioned As Star Older Than Universe Discovered”
“Strange ‘Methuselah’ Star Looks Older Than the Universe”
“The Greatest Cosmic Puzzle: Astronomers Find Stars That Appear Older Than The Universe”
The bottom line is that life has existed forever. There is no traceable “beginning” to life. They will have to discard the Big Bang theory sooner or later.
This is actually a collection of verses from several different sources.
The first verse is from the Mahā Parinibbāna Sutta (DN 16):
“Aniccā vata sankhārā
Uppāda vaya dhamminō
Uuppajjitvā nirujjhanti
Te san vūpa samō sukhō”I have explained this verse to have a bit different meaning here: “Aniccā vata Sankhārā…“.
The next two verses are Dhammapada verses 153 and 154.
The three verses after that are Dhammapada verses 277 through 279. There was a discussion about “sabbe sankhara” at the forum: “Sabbe Sankhara“.
I will try to translate those in the future when I have time. I am not sure where the last few verses are from.
It is interesting to see the difference in the recital of the first verse by Goenka and Waharaka Thero (in my post).
Hello Invo,
Welcome to the forum!
Thank you for your kind words. Looking forward to having fruitful discussions.
With metta, Lal
Lang wrote, “In the example of seeing the tree, I used to think of the tree as a vanna rupa.”
You are not alone in that, Lang. Many people have that misconception.
“Instead of a tree, let’s say it is a very attractive, enticing object. If I remember correctly from the Abhidhamma section, then the cakkhudvara citta vithi from seeing that object is followed by 3 manodvara citta vithi. Does the samphassa happen in those three manodvara citta vithi?”
Every time a pancadvara citta vithi runs, three manodvara citta vithi will run following that.
– Samphassa happens in the first pancadvara citta vithi and will also be there in the additional manodvara citta vithi.“..then for an arahant, are there still 3 (pure) manodvara citta vithi following the cakkhudvara citta vithi, or are there no manodvara citta vithi following it at all?”
Yes. Even for an Arahant, the sequence is the same. But without any samphassa.
– This has to do with the fact that an Arahant will also engage in “neutral activities” like walking, eating, etc. It is just that no abhisankhara will be generated.Tobias asked: “What rupa are experienced by a gandhabba when he/she is in paraloka or by a deva or a brahma? There is no brain to produce vanna, sadda, rasa, ghanda, pottabba rupa.”
Gandhabba does not need eyes/brain and ears/brain to see and hear. Like for brahmas, they can see and hear at long distances without eyes/ears. See, “Body Types in 31 Realms – Importance of Manomaya Kaya“.
– However, gandhabba can “absorb” scents and can get a bit denser. The word gandhabba comes from “gandha + abba” or “taking in aroma/scents”.Tobias asked: “As I understand all rupa are made of the 4 great elements. Thus even vanna rupa and also cakkhu rupa are made of these 4 great elements. What determines a cakkhu rupa or what is the “addon” here compared to e.g. a photon?”
– That is the difference between a live being and an inert object. Live beings have hadaya vatthu and a number of pasada rupa (five for humans to zero pasada rupa for the arupavacara brahmas).
– In other words, a living being ALWAYS has a hadaya vatthu to generate thoughts (citta). The only exception is the asanna realm. An asanna being does not generate thoughts, and the fine rupa is maintained by kammic energy.
– This can be easily seen when a human or an animal dies; their mental body with hadaya vatthu gets separated from the dead body, and a dead body is inert just like wood or stone.
– By the way, when the mental body of a yogi comes out of his physical body (say during astral travel), it is still connected to the physical body via kammic energy. That is why that physical body will still have body heat. Of course, at his death, the mental body would be separated and the dead body will get cold.
P.S. In a dead body, there are physical eyes but no mental body with cakkhu pasada rupa.Tobias wrote: “I wrote above “The eye, for example, comes in contact with photons.”
No. You wrote more than that. ” The eye for example comes in contact with photons. But the tree is not made of photons.”
I have revised my reply above to include the whole statement. It did not explain where actual contact (phassa) is made. From your statement, someone could get the wrong idea that contact is with the eye with photons.
I have explained what happens with the photons.
– Nothing wrong in your statement per se. But it did not clarify what happens. I was trying to explain exactly what happens, and what is meant by “phassa”. I was just trying to help, not to criticize.
– By the way, when I write a comment, I am trying to explain things to the general audience. I try to provide a comprehensive picture, when possible.P.S. Of course, a tree is not made of photons. But photons (light particles) need to bounce off a tree for the tree to be seen. That is why we cannot see trees (or anything else) at night. Again, this is a general clarification, and not to you, Tobias. You are an engineer, as I remember.
Tobias’ last question: “Also photons are made of the great elements, thus they are not vanna rupa but a mixture of apo, tejo, vayo, patavi, correct?”
Yes. That is correct.
Y not wrote: “On the change of bhava, a being gets a new set of the khandhas”
That is not correct. But it is a common misconception. Pancakkhandha is all mental, basically records in the mind.
You should carefully read the two posts that I mentioned in my first comment.
Then read through the comments above again. I know that this is a bit hard to understand. Buddha Dhamma is deep, and it takes a real effort to “get” the key concepts.
– However, once a concept is grasped it will stay and will help clarify many other related concepts.In a new bhava, what one gets is not new khandhas, but a set of new pasada rupa together with a new hadaya vatthu.
– In other words, a new bhava comes with a new mental body, which is called a gandhabba for humans and animals. For brahmas, it is just the mental body and no physical body.That is right!
The same for sadda rupa. External sounds are captured by the ears, that signal processed by the brain, and sent to sota pasada rupa as a sadda rupa.
The same for rasa rupa. Taste of food is captured by the tongue, that signal processed by the brain, and sent to jivha pasada rupa as a rasa rupa.
The same for gandha rupa. A smell is captured by the nose, that signal processed by the brain, and sent to ghana pasada rupa as a gandha rupa.
The same for pottabba rupa. A touch is captured by the body (skin), that signal processed by the brain, and sent to kaya pasada rupa as a pottabba rupa.
The same for dhamma rupa. That a little bit different. For example, a memory comes to the mana indriya in the brain (which has not been identified by science yet), that signal processed by the brain, and sent to hadaya vatthu (in one’s mental body).
– It is to be noted that the first five signals (cakkhu, sota, ghana. rasa, pottabba) are also “seen” by the hadaya vatthu, which is the “seat of the mind.”
– In the mental body (gandhabba), five pasada rupa are located around the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind). Thoughts (citta) arise in the hadaya vatthu. When a signal comes to a given pasada rupa (say cakkhu pasada), it makes contact with the hadaya vatthu. That is actually how the contact (phassa) is made.More details at: “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.
Tobias asked: “Can I conclude that the tree is made of vanna rupa because a tree is something visible?”
No. The tree is made of four great elements: patavi, apo, tejo, vayo. OR, in terms of modern science, a tree is made of atoms/molecules.
– Vanna rupa is the “picture of that tree registered in one’s mind.“As I understand external rupa make contact with the internal rupa”.
Yes, but the contact is not directly made with the external rupa (in our example, the tree).
– The contact (phassa) is made between the vanna rupa (the picture captured with the aid of eyes) and the internal rupa, which is the cakkhu pasada rupa that is in our mental body (gandhabba).
– That contact (phassa) can become a “defiled contact” (samphassa) if one’s greedy gati automatically incorporated by the mind; see, “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa“.“The eye for example comes in contact with photons. But the tree is not made of photons. ”
No. The photons (light) just help in capturing an image of the tree by the eyes. Then the eyes pass that captured image to the brain. The brain processes that information and passes it along to the cakku pasada in the mental body.
– That last step is when the “contact” (phassa) is made and the cakkhu vinnana arises.
– This is stated in “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppaddati cakkhu vinnanam”. Here “cakkhu” is cakkhu pasada rupa. “Rupa” is the signal of the image received by the cakkhu pasada rupa. Cakkhu vinnana is the overall “mental defiled consciousness” of that external rupa (in our case, the tree).
-That cakkhu vinnana is automatically contaminated with our gati (if we had any liking for that tree or even if just seeing the tree generated a liking for that tree).The post in question is: “Does any Object (Rupa) Last only 17 Thought Moments?“.
For those who may not be familiar with the term “vanna rupa” (or “varna rupa”), it is something (person or object) that one sees.
– Sadda rupa is a sound that one hears, rasa rupa is a taste, etc.Now, the question raised by Tobias requires one to understand the following.
1. There is a sankata out there in the world (a person or an object like a tree).
2. A “picture” of that rupa is captured by the eyes, processed by the brain, and that signal is sent to the cakkhu pasada rupa (which is part of the gandhabba). This “picture” is what is seen by us (or more precisely, our gandhabba or our mental body).
That second one is the vanna rupa. The first one is a sankata that is “out there”.
Let us say we look at a tree. Then the tree is a sankata. It will germinate, grow, and die one day.
If we look at the tree, our eyes capture a “snapshot” of that tree and that “vanna rupa” is seen by us.
– So, what we see is a “picture of the tree” that existed at that precise moment that we looked at it.
– That vanna rupa is captured by the mind within 17 thought moments (in a cakkhudvara citta vithi).
– A moment after we see it, it becomes a “nama gotta”, or a “recorded event” in our mind.
Suppose we never get to see that tree ever again.
– If the tree was unusual for some reason, we may be able to remember it even a couple of years later. But it is possible that someone may have cut off that tree and it may not even be existing at that time.This is what is needed to be understood. A sankata (the tree) is different from the “picture” that is included in our pancakkhandha. The “picture of that tree” is in our rupakkhandha forever.
If we liked that tree for some reason, it may be part of our rupa upadanakkhadha (a rupa that we like and crave for).
So, I hope your questions are unanswered. This is VERY important, so if it is not clear to anyone, please ask questions.
More details at: “Difference Between Rupa and Rupakkhandha” and “Pancakkhandha or Five Aggregates – A Misinterpreted Concept“.
