Sabbe Sankhara

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    • #15494
      Kalayanamitta1
      Participant

      Dear Followers

      When somebody says Sankara and Sabba Sankara. Is there are a difference between the two. Is there any Sanakara that we can reference externally that is outside of 5 aggregates.

      Am not referencing to the Sankatha nature.

    • #15496
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Kalayanamitta1 said: “When somebody says Sankara and Sabba Sankara. Is there are a difference between the two. Is there any Sanakara that we can reference externally that is outside of 5 aggregates.”

      Welcome to the forum, Kalayanamitta1!

      Sankhara is very broad. One can get an idea of that by looking at “pada nirukti”: “san” + “kara”.
      – As we know “san” is anything that is do with this world of 31 realms. When we eat, walk, talk, etc all those are sankhara.
      – “Sabba sankhara” means ALL sankhara, the ones in this broad category.

      Those that involve dasa akusala OR dasa kusala (i.e., involve moral/immoral values) have a special prefix of “abhi”; they are abhisankhara.
      – One should first see the anicca nature (i.e., not suitable/ dangerous) of those worst abhisankhara that could lead to rebirth in the apayas; the Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna stages).
      – Then, one should see the anicca nature of those abhisankhara (done with craving for sense pleasures) that could lead to rebirth in the human realm (Sakadagami stage), and any realm in kama loka (at Anagami stage).
      – In the above cases, we discard only apunnabhisankhara (apunna abhi sankhara or immoral), AND cultivate punnabhisankhara (punna abhi sankhara or moral). This is important to remember.
      – When one becomes an Arahant, one would have seen the anicca nature of ALL sankhara. This is what is stated as “sabba sankharesu anicca sanna” in the Sabbasava sutta. So, we all don’t need to worry about the anicca nature of sabba sankhara yet!
      – At the Arahant stage, one will still do punna kriya to help others, and will still engage in sankhara (to live), but has comprehended the anicca nature of all sankhara.

      Make sure to know the real meaning of sankhara: “Sankhāra – What It Really Means“.

    • #15516
      Kalayanamitta1
      Participant

      Thanks Lal. That summarises most of it. I also came across a deshana, if i have understood that correctly it mentioned, when we commit an abisanakara, from what you’ve explained above, the energy or hetu that gets accumulates in the kamma bhava will being results or pala when the right conditions are met. These energy give rise to constant Sans Karana- sinhala word or sakas weema, that produces the Sankatha nature.. That sankara refers to the non living side.. That will complete the full Sabbe Sankara picture. Hope I’ve explained this correctly, from what I grasped.
      Theruwan Sarani

    • #15519
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Just to make sure, sankata includes BOTH living and inter things. Both have mind as the precursor, i.e., it is those sankhara that give rise to sankata.

      Remember that paticca samuppada cycles start with “avijja pacca sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana“, and end up in “dukkha domanassa upasaya sambhavanti, i.e., to all suffering. It also lead to the arising of THINGS that help induce suffering.

      I have not yet discussed paticca samuppada cycles that discuss the creation of inert things via sankhara. That is not necessary to attain Nibbana.

      We need to see how our conscious thoughts (vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara) lead to births in various realms, and first suppress/remove those sankhara that lead to births in the apayas.

      Just published a new post on two key Dhammapada verses regarding this topic:
      Manōpubbangamā dhammā..“.

    • #15527
      Kalayanamitta1
      Participant

      Sadu Sadu sadu..

    • #15535
      sybe07
      Spectator

      “We need to see how our conscious thoughts (vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara) lead to births in various realms, and first suppress/remove those sankhara that lead to births in the apayas”.(Lal)

      sutta references for the relation between our kind of mental, verbal and phyiscal actions and their results are:

      From Anguttara Nikāya:
      -AN3.111, AN4.233, AN6.39, AN10.216

      From Majjhima Nikāya:
      -MN45, MN46, MN129,
      also ofcourse the sutta on kamma MN135 and MN136

      AN10.47 is also interesting. It lists greed, hate and delusion as causes and conditions for the doing of bad kamma, like usual in the sutta Piṭaka but lists also careless attention and wrongly directed mind as causes and conditions
      It lists also non-greed, non hatred, non delusion and carefull attention and a rightly directed mind as causes and conditions for doing of good kamma, for the occurance of good kamma.

      This list of sutta’s is not complete.

      kind regards,
      Siebe

    • #15538
      sybe07
      Spectator

      Can we say that due to sankhara we operate in a re-active way? In a certain sense we are at that time not really ourselves. Our behaviour is just habitual, conditioned, like an animal or machine.

      In a re-active mode of behaviour, even when this can be called morally good, we still are alienated from ourselves. At least, this is how i can experience this.

      This reactive mode, even when the result is morally good, such as the habit to take care of somebody, the habit to help somebody, it still is a kind of alienated or corrupt behaviour. It is not really truthfull or right. Maybe in an mundane sense it is right, but i think it can also be sensed as not really authentic behaviour. In a sense all habitual behaviour is a kind of imprisonment, fettered, not free.

      Can we say that this conditioned behaviour, this reactive modus operandes is in the end due to avijja? So avijja is a kind of fuel for the habitual mind and our not really authentic habitual behaviour?

      kind regards,
      Siebe

    • #15543
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Sybe07 said: “Can we say that due to sankhara we operate in a re-active way? In a certain sense we are at that time not really ourselves. Our behaviour is just habitual, conditioned, like an animal or machine.”

      This is a critical point that I have been trying make all this time. See, “Sankhāra – What It Really Means” and “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“. Please read the posts that I recommend carefully, and ask questions from there if something is not clear. It is important to understand what is meant by each of the Pali words mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara.

      The way we first react (automatically) to situations is habitual and are based on our gati/asavas. The thoughts that are habitually and automatically generated are mano sankhara. We don’t have control over them DIRECTLY.

      However, we do have control over vaci and kaya sankhara that are associated with our conscious thoughts (talking to oneself), speech, and bodily actions.

      When we start acting mindfully (Anapana and Satipatthana), and catch any “wrong/immoral thoughts that arise”, and willfully control our vaci and kaya sankhara, our gati/asavas will change for the better. That in the long-temr will lead us to respond automatically the right way, i.e., mano snakhara will change accordingly. That is how we make progress on the Path.

    • #15544
      Johnny_Lim
      Participant

      Hi Lal,

      “The way we first react (automatically) to situations is habitual and are based on our gati/asavas. The thoughts that are habitually and automatically generated are mano sankhara. We don’t have control over them DIRECTLY.”

      Does the Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda cycle depict the mano sankhara process of how nature impart kamma vipaka onto us?

    • #15545
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Johnny asked: “Does the Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda cycle depict the mano sankhara process of how nature impart kamma vipaka onto us?”
      There are three steps involved and I am going to describe them using the post, ”Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna” :

      1. We get sense inputs (seeing, hearing, etc) due to kamma vipaka. These are analyzed by the first part of the citta vithi (see #15) labelled “kamma vipaka”.
      2. Then, based on out gati, a decision is made by the mind on how to react to that sense input at the vottapana (labelled “V”) citta in the middle of the citta vithi.
      3. Now, javana citta run based on that decision. Those initial javana citta are therefore mano sankhara. They get started without our conscious thinking, just based on our gati.

      Now, a normal person without knowledge of Dhamma will just go along with those same lines of thought. If it is an attractive subject, they get attached to it and think about how to possess/enjoy it, for example. Then one may speak to oneself and also speak out (vaci sankhara), and do bodily actions (via kaya sankhara), to get that enjoyment. If those involve dasa akusala, then one generates new bad kamma. That is why that part of the citta vithi is labelled “new kamma“.

      However, within a few seconds of starting that process we will become aware of those “bad vaci and kaya sankhara”, if one is being mindful. Thousands of citta vithi with such bad thoughts may run during that time initially.

      Now, when we become aware of those ‘bad thoughts”, we should think about their bad consequences and immediately stop them. THIS IS WHERE WE HAVE CONTROL.

      Initially, this is hard. The temptation is to just continue with those enticing thoughts. And when one first starts, one may be done with talking/acting by the time one even realizes it. But one should not be discouraged, and make a determination to “catch it” early next time.

      With time, one will be able to “catch such bad thoughts” at the early vaci sankhara stage (before using speech or the physical body via kaya sankhara). So, now one will have “good javana citta” in the “new kamma” stage of the citta vithi (per #15 of that post).

      Then, with time, ones’ gati/asavas will change. Then when a new sense input comes, the mind will make the “right decision” at the vottapana (“V”) stage.

      That is a summary. I recommend one prints that post and spend some time going through it carefully. It may be easier if one has some knowledge in Abhidhamma. Even otherwise, just try to get the general idea.

      Please ask questions and GET THIS RIGHT. This is the key to making progress in meditation (whether in formal meditation or in responding to real life situations).

      P.S. I am glad that Siebe started this discussion. Let us make sure to get any remaining questions answered.

      P.P.S. I am not saying it is necessary to learn Ahidhamma. It is necessary to learn the meanings of the terms mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara: “Sankhāra – What It Really Means” and “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
      For those who are familiar with Abhidhamma, the post, “Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna“, could provide more deeper knowledge.
      We can discuss both aspects here, so that one can come back and review things here.

      • #15662
        Johnny_Lim
        Participant

        Hi Lal,

        I am trying to understand the whole picture. Please kindly advise if my understanding is correct.

        “We get sense inputs (seeing, hearing, etc) due to kamma vipaka. These are analyzed by the first part of the citta vithi (see #15) labelled “kamma vipaka”.”

        Since coming into contact with sense inputs at this stage is a neutral event, does it imply only Vipaka Vinnana is aroused at this stage?

        “Then, based on our gati, a decision is made by the mind on how to react to that sense input at the vottapana (labelled “V”) citta in the middle of the citta vithi”.

        This stage triggers our Kamma Vinnana to arise. If abhisankhara is performed, it is equivalent to saying samphassa ja vedana has been executed. If samphassa ja vedana has been executed, either somanassa or domanassa is present. Consequently, our strong actions cause kamma beeja to arise and gets deposited in the mano loka (contained inside kamma bhava) and awaits for the right conditions to be unleashed in the form of dhamma or kamma vipaka again for the person to ‘bear’. Abhisankhara, if performed frequently enough and becomes habitual, might even build up into a nimitta and gets manifested at the forefront of a dying person during his last moments of death.

        “Now, javana citta run based on that decision. Those initial javana citta are therefore mano sankhara. They get started without our conscious thinking, just based on our gati.”

        Citta activities are way too fast for us to discern, and I would think knowing the criticality of the vottapana stage is good enough from an academic perspective. From a Paticca Samuppāda standpoint, which I think is more practical for us to react to sense inputs, can we say to get rid of a bad habit, the most critical link to tackle is samphassa-paccaya-vedana & vedana-paccaya-tanha. i.e. we must place strong emphasis to watch over our feelings since it is impossible to cut off all forms of contacts. Afterall, vedananupassana is one of the Satipatthana we should constantly practise.

    • #15547
      sybe07
      Spectator

      i struggled with this theme a lot,

      but i have come to see it this way that “doing right” is the best guaranteed when in certain situation i am not overwhelmed by any habitual force.

      i have come to see that to do really right, i have to be beyond the force of all habits, unconditioned, authentic, not in a re-active mode.

      I have come to see that to do really right, i must be authentic. If i am a slave of a habit, also a good one, i have seen this is not really doing right.

      Siebe

    • #15548
      y not
      Participant

      Sybe:

      By ‘doing right’ you of course mean doing what needs to be done or what you feel you should so. Is that it?

      There in something in the way of your authentic self and therefore what you want to express. The habits or natural tendecies of how to react (shyness, reticence, apprehension,fear) form a wall. It has cost me. At one time I saw it as a ‘struggle to the death’ between heart and mind. And the done cannot be undone. Or, the undone cannot be done.

      Or can it ever? Nietzsche spoke of the idea of ‘eternal recurrence’ Luckily he was only a philosopher.

      y not

    • #15550
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Siebe said: “i have come to see that to do really right, i have to be beyond the force of all habits..”

      This is the point. One has to break away from old habits (they are closely connected to one’s asavas/gati). The key here is to stop those vaci sankhara (fantasizing/enjoying) bad conscious thoughts.

      Then, over time, such asava/gati will wear out, and one will not generate such bad thoughts. That is what leads to niramisa sukha.

      @y not: “doing right” means doing what is moral (not doing dasa akusala).

      If an action, speech, thought involves asobhana cetasika (greed, anger, jealousy, etc) that is “not doing right”. These are akusala kamma.

      What is right are actions, speech, thoughts that involve sobhana cetasika (generosity, compassion, giving, etc). These are kusala/punna kamma; see, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.

      This is what the Buddha explained to the Kalamas in the Kalama Sutta: “Don’t do things to others that one would not want others to do to oneself”.

    • #15552
      sybe07
      Spectator

      I sense that doing automatically good, on auto-pilot, driven by a habitual force, like automatically taking care of somebody, is not really doing good. I tend to see it this way that all this habitual driven behaviour is in the end not really good. It is not really authentic. It is mind in a re-active mode. Also results, i find, are doubtful at least.

      I understand that ‘automatically taking care of somebody’, is not bad or immorel. In a mundane sense it is moral to take care of people or animals etc. In that sense it is good and appreciated. But i can also sense it is not really good, it is not really nobel, it is also often not really wise and intelligent. I belief, re-activity isn’t. There is something to re-activity which is not oke.

      Isn’t all re-active behaviour a kind of delusion? A kind of being overwhelmed, being fettered, being attached to habitual forces? Can it ever be really called wise in the sense the Buddha meant?

      I understand an arahant or Buddha does not automatically, from habitual forces, do good. I belief this is really “doing good” in the most wise and sensible sense.

      In a certain way buddha-dhamma is about abandoning immoral thoughts and habits en developing moral thought and habits. That part is a main theme in the sutta’s and also in Lal’s posts. It is meritorious. Sutta’s illustrate that the Buddha was very active in this kind of practise. It is, as it were, a way to close the gates to the lower worlds and to open the gates to heaven. At least, making the changes bigger. It fuels the path to Nibbana too. Ignoring this kind of work is the path of Mara.

      But, at least for me, buddha-dhamma is also about becoming really authentic, in the sense that one enters more and more the unconditioned and cuts through the forces of habits. Habitual forces are not who i am, not mine, not myself, but just habitual forces arising. This is also true for moral habitual forces. The ultimate goal, at least that’s how i understand this, is not to do automatically good by force of habit, but to end such force-ful behaviour.

      kind regards, Siebe

    • #15553
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Siebe said: “Isn’t all re-active behaviour a kind of delusion?”.

      I do not understand why people try to make things complicated than necessary.
      Whether automatic or not, anything related to dasa akusala are bad and should not be done. How hard is it to understand that? If that is not right, tell me why not.

      Siebe said: :”I understand an arahant or Buddha does not automatically”

      Where did you see that? Of course, a Buddha or an Arahant would do things right automatically. They have removed their bad gati/asavas by the process that I described above. So, even their mano sankhara (that arise automatically) are without blemish.

      Siebe said: “The ultimate goal, at least that’s how i understand this, is not to do automatically good by force of habit,but to end such forceful behaviour.”

      Tell me why you do not want to “good things automatically”? What is wrong with that? This is the strangest thing I have ever heard! What is the point of that? Why would anyone ever want to stop doing good things???

    • #15555
      y not
      Participant

      Lal:

      Perhaps the following is relevant to what Siebe is trying to convey.If it is not, please treat seperately.

      For myself, the hard bit, not so much to understand, but to accept, is that even doing good is in the long run a hindrance and must be abandoned.

      That is of course from my standpoint. Others may have gone beyond the irresistible urge to do and yearn for ‘the most good’ to those they are attached to and to all others in a general, universal sense (AND DOES THIS CONSTITUTE DASA AKUSAKA, OR LOBHA EVEN TO A DEGEE?)- they have reached where the Metta is exclusively universal. And |I am not there yet.

      As I read Siebe, what I think he means is that when a Buddha or Arahant or even anyone else with the gati to do good and distributes Metta all around, he does that automatically, meaning HE HAS NO CHOICE. If you do something because you have no choice, then where is the merit? If you have a choice to choose between loving and hating and you choose to love, that has merits, it is noble. But where you cannot do otherwise, where is the virtue of it? This is what I think he means.

      The way I see it one works for one’s good gati for lifetimes to attain. So the merit is there. Then one acts ‘automatically’, subconsciously in other words, because he has dispelled all wrong. True, he has no choice. He is UNABLE even to do wrong now. He can only do good. But AT THAT STAGE, HAVING ATTAINED THAT STAGE, all that is done away with.

      Please comment.

    • #15557
      y not
      Participant

      Lal:

      Perhaps the following is relevant to what Siebe is trying to convey.If it is not, please treat seperately.

      For myself, the hard bit, not so much to understand, but to accept, is that even doing good is in the long run a hindrance and must be abandoned.

      That is of course from my standpoint. Others may have gone beyond the irresistible urge to do and yearn for ‘the most good’ to those they are attached to and to all others in a general, universal sense (AND DOES THIS CONSTITUTE DASA AKUSAKA, OR LOBHA EVEN TO A DEGEE?)- they have reached where the Metta is exclusively universal. And |I am not there yet.

      As I read Siebe, what I think he means is that when a Buddha or Arahant or even anyone else with the gati to do good and distributes Metta all around, he does that automatically, meaning HE HAS NO CHOICE. If you do something because you have no choice, then where is the merit? If you have to choose between loving and hating and you choose to love, that has merits, it is noble. But where you cannot do otherwise, where is the virtue of it? This is what I think he means.

      The way I see it one works for one’s good gati for lifetimes to attain. So the merit is there. Then one acts ‘automatically’, subconsciously in other words, because he has dispelled all wrong. True, he has no choice. He is UNABLE even to do wrong now. He can only do good. But AT THAT STAGE, HAVING ATTAINED THAT STAGE, all that is done away with.

      Please comment.

      y not

    • #15562
      Lal
      Keymaster

      @y not: First, what I see is what you see at the forum. I can delete existing posts, but if a post cannot be seen I cannot do anything about it. I have deleted those other posts you made about a missing post. They clutter the board. Please make sure to type the post in a word processor so that you can re-post if it does not get posted for some reason. That has never happened to me, so I don’t know why it happened to you.

      You said: “For myself, the hard bit, not so much to understand, but to accept, is that even doing good is in the long run a hindrance and must be abandoned.”

      Who said that “doing good is in the long run a hindrance and must be abandoned“? Did I say that or did the Buddha say that? I cannot imagine ANYONE sane saying something like that.

      You said: “As I read Siebe, what I think he means is that when a Buddha or Arahant or even anyone else with the gati to do good and distributes Metta all around, he does that automatically, meaning HE HAS NO CHOICE. If you do something because you have no choice, then where is the merit?”

      If you do good things automatically ALL THE TIME, you have attained Nibbana. There is no need to accrue any more merits at that stage. However, Arahants keep on doing punna kamma or such such deeds, simply because that is the right thing to do.

      One needs free will to choose between acts that lead to suffering and those lead to happiness. Once one attains Arahanthood, one has attained permanent happiness. Why would one need to have choice at that stage?

      This is a problem with philosophers. They are not focused on the real issue, but on nonsense like choice, free will etc. That is because they don’t have any idea about Nibbana or ultimate happiness. There is a difference between NEED for free will (which a normal human ALWAYS has), and NOT NEEDING free choice when one gets to the pinnacle (one has reached there by MAKING the right choices); one will NEVER do the wrong thing at that stage.

    • #15563
      sybe07
      Spectator

      When mind gets entangled by some habitual force, even morally good ones, how can mind not be fettered at that moment? It is chained at that moment.

      The arising of a habitual force is at that moment wrongly grasped as; “this i am, this is mine, this is myself’. Habitual force is at that moment not seen with wisdom.

      When an arahant does automatically good, i belief, this does not mean that he/she is driven by the power of some good gati. The goodness arises differently, not based on gati, but based on the unconditioned state.

      Siebe

    • #15564
      y not
      Participant

      Lal:

      I asked you to re-post only because when it happened last, Inflib (Donna) somehow caused it to show on my page and she said so. I do not know how she did it. So excuse me for asking. Terribly sorry taking your time on this.

      As to my reference to Siebe’s question, it seems we are agreed. Regarding philosophers, they ask more and more questions but provide no answers, only more and more questions arise because they do NOT KNOW. That is why I am on here.

      Now as to “…Who said that “doing good is in the long run a hindrance and must be abandoned“? Did I say that or did the Buddha say that? I cannot imagine ANYONE sane saying something like that.” This was my main point; Siebe came in only as an afterthought, yet most of your ‘answer’ deals with this.

      My position is this (I hope to be understood at last): More than one participant has pointed out that the attainment of Nibbana is of necessity a selfish endeavour, for one must put aside all attachment. Now then, love for your children, for instance, is a personal attachment. From the human through to higher realms there will be personal attachment, but at the Arahant stage that ceases. What??..to love is wrong?? because it impedes one’s way to the ultimate goal? So I am not mad after all. To love is not wrong. Only IMPERSONAL love survives there, Metta for all, but that is not attachment (this much I see).

      If now at the Summit personalized affection is a no-no ..that State
      would lack ‘humaneness’, warmth, all the feelings that make us feel alive. And here is where the Mahāyāna references to that State as absorption, evaporation, emptiness, sunnyata etc come in. Just because of this. I am not agreeing to Nibbana being that by any means, I am just providing a frame of reference.

      I do not want to argue the point any further. I cannot see a way of accepting that there can be no personal love at ANY Stage on the Path.It would be that I am not at that stage.

      Grateful as ever

      y not

    • #15565
      y not
      Participant

      Lal:

      Furher to my question: an apt analogy would be asking a mother to love all childen as much as she loves her own. With all the good-will in the world, will any mother be capable of it?

      Now should the objection come, ” in beginingless samsara ‘ it is hard, monks, to find that some one has not been one’s father or mother or son or daughter’..” again the answer is no, because we do not remember those attachments, except perhaps the ones that are renewed in the present life.

      y not

    • #15566
      Lal
      Keymaster

      @y not: This is why I say one should follow the Path step-by-step. Don’t worry about not loving your children, because that is not going to happen any time soon. Just focus on first getting to a stage of “peace of mind” by staying away from dasa akusala, and getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi. That is, if you agree with my explanations.

      Buddha dhamma can be very deep; one can read posts in the latter subsections of the “Living Dhamma” section and see that. But most will not be able to fully comprehend those. One should start at the first subsections, and other sections at the website: “User’s Guide to Pure Dhamma Website“.

      It is of course up to each individual. I am not going to comment any more on this issue. It is pointless to have this abstract discussion.

      It is impossible for one starting on the Path to understand the mind of an Arahant. One may even get discouraged, because that is not what a normal human envisions as “happiness” (i.e., sense pleasures). But what the Buddha said is that it is those sense pleasures that lead to suffering. That is contradictory to normal logic of a human. That is why the Buddha said: “This Dhamma has never been known the world” or “pubbe ananussutasu Dhammesu“.

      The problem is that most people don’t want to start at the beginning either. I always say, one has to learn to basic addition before trying to learn calculus; one could waste a lot of time trying to do that. But in a way, I am glad that we had this discussion, so that anyone interested can read through the above posts, and see arguments with different point-of-views. No need to go through this again!

      I also know that there are at least a few who have comprehended this, and are pursuing the Path correctly.

    • #15572
      sybe07
      Spectator

      I have understood, but correct me if i am wrong, that the javana citta’s of an arahant are not akusala anymore but also not kusala.

      The citta’s that succeed the votthapana citta are kirya citta’s. There is no impuls or habitual force to do bad but also not to do good.
      In my own words, there is not that kind of moral and immoral re-activity anymore in the mind.

      I think a nice way to talk about this is that an arahant has become completely authentic. All habitual behaviour is not really authentic, but re-active. It is a kind of alienation. I can sense this. An arahant has ended this process of alienation. If, for example, somebody becomes really angry, he is in an alienated state, he is not really himself. Reactivity is a kind of alienation.

      Yes, also habitually doing good is alienation. It is not really authentic or nobel. I do not say it is bad, but i can sense that doing habitually good, as a kind of re-ativity, is something completely different then doing good in a nobel sense.

      That an arahant automatically does good, i belief, does not mean he/she does automatically good because of kusala citta’s or gati/habit. It is another kind of automatically doing good. It is not based on gati or habitual forces. Behaviour based on gati is Always reactivity and cannot be called nobel.

      Hope, this is of use

      kind regards,
      Siebe

    • #15573
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes, Siebe. Your above descriptions are mostly correct. Specifically:

      “I have understood, but correct me if i am wrong, that the javana citta’s of an arahant are not akusala anymore but also not kusala.”

      Correct. Arahant’s citta can never be akusala; they are not kusala either (because there are no “ku” or defilements to get rid of “sala”). But they can be punna kamma. See, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“. They are called “kriya citta”, which just lead to actions.

      “Behaviour based on gati is Always reactivity and cannot be called noble.”

      Yes. An Arahant has removed all gati (for the same reasons that he/she does not generate any kusala/akusala citta mentioned above).

      But an Arahant may still have some kammically neutral habitual actions. A young Arahant jumping over mud puddles mentioned in the Tipitaka is one good example. Another Arahant actually could not help uttering “rough speech” out of samsaric habits. But there was no javana power in that speech. This is why we cannot judge other people; they only know that they did not have bad intentions (no dosa cetasika in those cittas).

      • #15574
        sybe07
        Spectator

        Thanks Lal. Does an arahant also has less javana citta’s running after votthapana or does this number stay the same?

        Siebe

    • #15576
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. An Arahant‘s citta vithi will still have the 7 javana citta. However, they don’t have any kammic energy.

      It is to be noted that it is those javana cittas that that provide power to body muscles to do physical work, and even speech. That is in addition to kammic energy in them.

      For example, when you lift an extra heavy package or when pushing a stalled car you give a bit more “oomph” to those javana citta.

      In other words, a javana citta may impart kammic and physical energy. An Arahant‘s javana citta provides only physical energy for necessary physical work and speech.

      However, that physical energy is only a small fraction of the energy needed, for example to lift a package. Most of the energy comes from the food we eat. The energy of javana citta only sends a message to the brain. That is why one is unable to do much physical work when physically weak.

      I started writing and it got longer and longer!

      • #15577
        sybe07
        Spectator

        Thanks, this makes things clear to me. kind regards, Siebe

    • #15579
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Lal wrote:
      Arahant’s citta can never be akusala; they are not kusala either (because there are no “ku” or defilements to get rid of “sala”). But they can be punna kamma.

      The kusala-mula PS starts with “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara”, which means: deeds done with alobha, adosa, amoha. See also the link: https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppada/kusala-mula-paticca-samuppada/

      But an Arahant has removed all six causes (also alobha, adosa, amoha). Can I conclude that an Arahant does not have the kusala-mula PS? Then which type of PS is still executed by an Arahant?

    • #15581
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias asked: “But an Arahant has removed all six causes (also alobha, adosa, amoha). Can I conclude that an Arahant does not have the kusala-mula PS? Then which type of PS is still executed by an Arahant?”

      Good question. One can learn a lot by carefully thinking about this.

      1. One is born in this world due to the six root causes.
        • One is born in the apayas or dugati due to bad gati arising mainly due to lobha, dosa, moha. The akusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts take place with these three root causes.
        • One is born in the remaining “good realms” or sugati due to good gati due to alobha, adosa, amoha. The kusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts take place with these three root causes.
      2. Therefore, NEITHER of the PS cycles operate for an Arahant. If either one operates, that would lead to making new kamma and new bhava and more rebirths.
      3. For those who are into Abhidhamma, a citta vithi always starts with an external sense input due to a past kamma, i.e., due to a kamma vipaka. So, an Arahant will have sense inputs, and experience the vipaka during the first stag of the citta vithi (those citta before the vottapana (“V”) citta in the citta vithi; see #15 of “Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna“.
        • A decision is made at the vottapana citta automatically (based on one’s gati) on how to respond to the sense input. Then appropriate javana citta will run, and new kamma will be done.
        • But an Arahant has removed ALL gati, and as we discussed above, his/her javana citta will have no kammic power.
      4. Furthermore, it is essential that one stay away from dasa akusala (and thus minimize akusala-mula PS), and also to CULTIVATE kusala-mula PS.
        • That is Anapana (Satipatthana). And that in the long run will lead to cultivation of panna (wisdom), and to the Arahant stage via four intermediate stages.
        • All six root causes are eliminated at the pinnacle of panna, at the Arahant phala moment.
    • #15582
      Tobias G
      Participant

      So for an Arahant the avyākata PS cycle is still running. That’s it.
      Thank you very much for the explanation!

      The kusala-mula PS operates only for Ariyas, starting at the Sotapanna stage. For a normal human (a “worldling”) the akusala-mula PS is always applied. See also https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/what-is-intention-in-kamma/

    • #15583
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias said: “The kusala-mula PS operates only for Ariyas, starting at the Sotapanna stage. For a normal human (a “worldling”) the akusala-mula PS is always applied. See also https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/what-is-intention-in-kamma/”

      This is not right. If I implied that, I must have made a mistake. One can do kusala even before the Sotapanna Anugami stage.

      We need to remember that amoha is not necessarily the same as panna, and thus anyone can act with alobha, adosa, amoha.

    • #15584
      Tobias G
      Participant

      From the mentioned post https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppada/kusala-mula-paticca-samuppada/, #1:
      “…Kusala-mula (pronounced kusala– müla) PS describes the PS process for Ariyas, starting at the Sotapanna stage.”

    • #15588
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Thank you, Tobias, for catching that error. I just revised #1 in that post. I will read that post carefully and make any more necessary corrections.

    • #15593
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Dear Lal,

      I think it is still not correct. In the new post “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma” you say:

      #2 “Kusala comes from “ku” + ”sala”, where “ku” refers to “kunu” or keles or defilements, and “sala” means “to get rid of”. “akusala” is the opposite of “kusala”. Kamma is an action. … an akusala kamma is an action that defiles or contaminates one’s mind (one of dasa akusala). Any kusala kamma involves an action that involves removal of defilements or dasa akusala from one’s mind

      Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma

      From the above I conclude that kusala deeds always involve the understanding of the tilakkhana.

      For every kusala kamma a kusala-mula PS is required. But if you say the kusala-mula PS also works for Anariyas before the Sotapanna Anugami stage, then how do they remove defilements (without comprehension of the tilakkhana)?

      Also in the post “kusala-mula PS” you describe it as the PS to attain Nibbana (#1 “… the PS process for attaining Nibbana has NOT been described for over 1500 years”). In #13 it says: “The appropriate jati (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami) will result in an appropriate realm”.

      Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda

      This can work only for Ariyas, starting at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.

      Overall the kusala-mula PS starts only on the Noble Path with knowledge about the true nature of this world, i.e. with a kind of samma ditthi.

      On the other side an Anariya always acts with micca ditthi, even when doing good deeds (i.e. with dasa akusala). An Anariya will also develop tanha for good deeds. But tanha is not part of the kusala-mula PS.

      Please be patient with me if I don’t get the idea right.

    • #15596
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Hi Tobias:

      Yes. It is a subtle point. The key is the is that just by doing kusala kamma one CANNOT remove the ditthi anusaya. This is why it is not possible to attain Nibbana just via moral conduct (sila).

      Without removing the ditthi anusaya (and vicikicca anusaya, which is also related to getting to Ariya Samma Ditthi), one cannot start removing the other types of anusaya. This happens only at the Sotapanna stage.
      – But anyone can do kusala kamma with alobha, adosa, amoha. That does not require panna (wisdom), which is the comprehension of Tilakkhana.
      Ditthi anusaya cannot be broken just with alobha, adosa, amoha. Without breaking the ditthi anusaya, one cannot remove the remaining anusaya.

      Those remaining anusaya are then removed at higher magga phala; see, “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbana“.

      It is amazing that ditthi anusaya is responsible for 99+% of the akusala kamma conducted by a given person. At one time, the Buddha took a bit of dirt to his fingernail and told the bhikkhus that if the soil in the whole Earth (or is it the amount in a given mountain?, I don’t remember) is compared to the defilements of a normal human, then the amount that a Sotapanna has remaining can be compared to that bit of dirt. The point is that what is remaining to be removed (by getting rid of other types anusaya) is relatively very small.

      People tend to think about killing, stealing, etc (those done by the bodily actions and speech) to be the prominent dasa akusala. But one does more akusala by the mind (conscious thinking or vaci sankhara) based on wrong views (which under tempting situations can easily lead to akusala by the body and speech). This is why removing ditthi anusaya is so important!

      It is also important to realize that ditthi anusaya or wrong views are removed at two stages, as I keep emphasizing: First, the 10 types of micca ditthi removed before the Sotapanna stage, and then wrong views on nicca, sukha, atta nature of this world removed starting at the Sotapanna stage.

    • #15598
      sybe07
      Spectator

      “Without removing the ditthi anusaya (and vicikicca anusaya, which is also related to getting to Ariya Samma Ditthi), one cannot start removing the other types of anusaya. This happens only at the Sotapanna stage” (Lal)

      I have seen that the sutta’s treat sakkaya ditthi as the first (and very important) fetter to be abandoned. I belief also Patisambhidamagga does, but i am not sure about the translations.

      The treatise on knowledge (from §355 and further) of the Patisambhidamagga describes the gradual path of purification. The stream-entry path cuts of 1. the [wrong] view of individuality, it is said (translation nanamoli), 2. uncertainty, 3. misapprehension of virtue and duty. It also cuts to underlying tendency to [wrong] view and uncertainty.

      These are 3 of the 5 lower fetters (MN64).

      I remember also other sutta’s who mention sakkaya ditthi as the first fetter. It seems like sutta’s say that sakkaya ditthi is the very important micca ditthi to end first.

      These sakkaya ditthi’s are of 20 kinds. This is treated in MN44. It is not only our identification with the body but all we experience. At least that one can understand from MN44.

      When the dustfree stainless dhamma-eye opens, the first three lower fetters are broken (AN3.94).

      Sakkay ditthi (and the other fetters) hinder right view (AN6.89)

      Our understanding of ourselves seems to be the key factor to the sotapanna stage.

      i realise sotapanna stage does not mean a sotapanna does not have any conceit “I am” anymore. He/she has.
      But ending sakkaya dithhi means that mind does not become really afflicted anymore due to changes. This is nicely illustrated in SN22.1.
      If one is not identified with the body, feelings, perception, mental formations and conciousness, mind also does not get afflicted anymore when these experiences change, for better or worse.

      Siebe

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