[Lal]

“But it is all necessary for maintaining life in a human body. That is how devas must look upon human bodies, much like we look upon pigs – careful to keep a distance, more so due to the much finer sensitivity of their senses.”

OK y not. I see that you had the right idea.

[Lal]

I think most of the points y not is making, are correct.

“…seeing that this box we are in is but a processing mechanism that converts liquids and solids to urine and faeces; the aromas and flavours we so relish turn into detestable waste.”
– That is true.

But the next sentence, “Yet we cannot do otherwise, because we are impelled by thirst and hunger.” could be written in a different way.
– There is nothing wrong with eating and drinking (even tasty foods). In fact, we have to eat and drink to maintain our lives. And there is no point is forcibly eating foods that are not tasty.
– The only thing we need to do is to consume any food WITHOUT craving. That loss of craving comes naturally as one realizes the futility of enjoying those “pleasures”. Such cravings keep one bound to the kama loka.

What he says next is true too: “Moreover, it is beset by disease, aches, and pains, ending in old age and death. Such is the existence we have to bear;”
– That should be an incentive to make effort without delay to attain Nibbana, at least the first stages of Nibbana.

[Lal]

Yes, y not. You need to see the difference between “rupa” and rupakkhandha. Same for other four khandhas (with the exception of part of vinnanakkhandha; see below.)

See, “Difference Between Rupa and Rupakkhandha.”

The vinnanakkhandha is a bit different. All other khandha just go to “memory records” or “nama gotta” as they go to the past.
– Kamma vinnana are (only associated with mano vinnana) have energies. They are basically kamma bija.
– The other five types of vinnana (cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya) come to the mind momentarily and then recorded as past events. Same for “vipaka mano vinnana”.
– See, “Viññāna – What It Really Means.”

Also, even in kamma vinnana. it is not just one. There can be numerous kamma vinnana (kamma bija) waiting to bring kamma vipaka (including many possible future existences.) Those kamma vinnana that can bring future existences are also called “patisandhi vinnana.”
– One needs to spend time, contemplating and grasping the ideas.

Also note that we cannot recall all our memories, especially from past lives. Some children can just recall the immediate previous life.
– But by cultivating abhinna powers one can recall many past lives. The Buddha could recall as many as he wished.

[Lal]

Dhammā can be analyzed at various levels and in various ways. The above quote is one way to express it.

Dhammā includes kamma bija, which are in vinnanakkhandha (our future hopes and expectations; of course, expectations do not materialize “as expected”). Those are energies. Kamma vipaka materialize due to them.

Dhammā includes memories, which do not have any energy. The other three khandhas are included in memories. They are also called nama gotta.

Finally, Nibbana (asankhata dhatu) is also grasped with the mind. “Mananca paticca dhammeca..”

[Lal]

“How can a dhamma even be below this level when a suddhashtaka is the base unit and cannot be divided?”

Dhammā are rupa that are not detectable with the five physical senses. They are rupa detected with the mana indriya. See, #9 of “What are Dhammā? – A Deeper Analysis.”

Also see, “Our Two Worlds: Material and Immaterial.”

Dhammā are, “anidassan appatighan dhammāyatana pariyāpanna rūpan“. I need to find a reference for this particualr verse. If anyone has the reference, please post. I am providing a related reference below.

The following reference is in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka. Āyata­na­vibhaṅga
“Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅ­khā­rak­khan­dho, yañca rūpaṃ ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ dhammā­yatana­pariyā­pannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.

[Lal]

The need for interaction with other humans is inherent in a human. It is like “kama guna” that I discussed in the post “Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā).”

The need for social interactions starts to diminish as one attains higher and higher magga phala starting as a Sotapanna Anugami. An Ariya (Noble Person) is one who starts seeing that things in this world (including the need for “social life”) have no value.
– At that point, one just tends to interact with similar minded people who are also on the Noble Path. Such interactions are different from social interactions like “get together and have a good time.”

The need for attention is critically important in the early years, as a baby. That is when we develop our character with the influence of especially the parents.

It seems to me Wta, that you seem to have a good family, even though you did not get along with your Dad. Otherwise, you would not be coming to this website and the forum.
– My advice regarding your Dad is to try to be respectful to him and not do anything to aggravate him. It could just be that your personalities (which are part of “gati“; see below) are different. We MUST respect our parents no matter how bad they are. It is very hard to get a human body (you may not know much about gandhabba yet), and we have a human body thanks to our parents.
– Having conflicts with those who are close leads to an agitated state of mind. That is especially true regarding a parent.
– Staying away is better than having arguments. But it is best if you can slowly improve bonds with the parents and family. Take the initiative to be respectful to the parents, even if it is hard.

My other suggestion is to continue learning Dhamma. Listen to those desana that Johnny and Christian suggested if you find them useful. If you have a temple closeby go there and participate in the activities there. Not all temples are the same. But that is much better than getting together with bad friends, having bad social interactions. Participating in the forum and discussing Dhamma concepts with like-minded people is another. When you are on the path, Dhamma will direct you in the right direction, and you will start connecting with like-minded people.
– Many people, especially young people, fall into the trap of trying to make friends just to overcome loneliness. Many start associating with bad people and develop bad habits.

The joy of Dhamma is unlike another. One comprehending Dhamma will never be lonely.

You may want to read the following section when you have time (just pick topics of interest):
Moral Living and Fundamentals

These are some initial thoughts. If you have specific issues we can discuss.

P.S. I mentioned “gati” (pronounced “gathi”) above. Those are one’s character/habits; see, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas)” and the posts referred to in there.

[Lal]

Welcome to the forum, Wta!

I am having a really busy day today. I just saw your post. I may not be able to respond to your questions today.
If anyone has suggestions, please feel free to respond. I am sure Wta would appreciate any suggestions.

[Lal]

Thanks, Tobias. You asked, “Just to make it clear, I understand asava as defilements deep down in a being. Those asava become anusaya when the asava start to surface as gati. Is that right?”
– Yes. We can also say that hidden asava can be triggered by a strong arammana and they come to the surface as anusaya.
– If one cultivates gati that are compatible with those asava, then those asava will get stronger.

I had terms wrong in the post, The Amazing Mind – Critical Role of Nāmagotta (Memories).

I have revised both posts to make things a bit more clear. Please let me know if I missed something.

[Lal]

As you quoted, I wrote, “being brain dead is virtually equivalent to being dead…”

I did not say “equivalent’, I said, “virtually equivalent”.
– Yes. As long as the gandhabba has not left the body permanently, one has not died.
– But with the brain not functioning, one cannot see, hear, smell, taste, touch, or think. That is what is I meant by saying “virtually equivalent” to being dead. It is “as if” one is dead.

[Lal]

Thank you for sharing your experience, Iolonyo.

Each person walks on the Path in one’s own way. There are three things to remember:

1. Nibbana (cooling down of the mind) is dependent on getting rid of greed and anger. That takes time and is dependent on getting rid of one’s bad gati (habits/character qualities) and cultivating good gati (the opposites). That itself involves taking control of one’s actions and conscious thoughts gradually. See, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas).”
2. Getting rid of wrong views and learning Dhamma accelerates that process.
3. As one makes progress, one should be able to see changes in one’s gati over time (and the associated “cooling down”). That is the only “measure” we have on making progress. This progress may be not apparent for a while, but once it starts, it will accelerate.

You seem to be making progress.

A few comments on some of your statements:
“Cultivated more of sukkha, discard immediately all dukkha”.
– You probably mean cultivate the causes and conditions for sukha and discard the causes and conditions for dukkha.

” I am essentially trying to ease my suffering and if experiencing “cooling down” as an alternative will do it, I will do it. I would like to use and teach this model but only after living it amd experiencing real effects for a long time.”
– Excellent! But note that some strong kamma vipaka (bringing suffering) cannot be stopped, even though maybe reduced. The main goal is to stop such future vipaka by not making NEW causes and conditions. For example, when one gets a headache that could be due to excessive drinking, and thus can be stopped by stopping that bad habit. But if one gets cancer, that is due to a strong past kamma, and one can only follow medical procedures to get rid of cancer.

“how can we “STOP” the ongoing karmas/actions effectively?”
– I hope you can see the answer to this question in the my statement above. The only way to stop past kamma vipaka is to live a moral life, so as not to make CONDITIONS for such vipaka to materialize. Some can be avoided and others may not be avoidable.
– The hard part of the practice is to bear those bad vipaka and be determined not to do new bad kamma.
– See “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”

” how can we KNOW the obvious sukkha/dukkha effect of a particular action?”
– If an action is based on greed or anger that is guaranteed to bring dukkha in the future, if not in this life in future lives. See, “How to Taste Nibbāna.”
– If an action is based on non-greed, compassion, kindness, etc, those are bound to bring sukha or happiness in the future.
– Learning Dhamma makes one truly understand that. That is how one gets rid of wrong views and learn how certain actions lead to corresponding results. That is Paticca Samuppada that you mentioned at the end.

[Lal]

Welcome to the forum, Austin. Thank you for sharing your experiences on the forum.

Austin has been writing to me for a little while. I am impressed with his devotion at such a young stage.

I do not know those other “gurus” and techniques mentioned in his comment. I encouraged Austin to share his experience so that he may get some feedback from those who may be familiar with those techniques.

[Lal]

Vedananupassana in Satipatthana involves both those, Akmal.

1. While doing Vedananupassana one is supposed to contemplate how both types of vedana ARISE.

– In particular, one needs to contemplate on how samphassa-ja-vedana arise, and that those are the ones that are going to bring FUTURE vipaka vedana.
– Those bad samphassa-ja-vedana can be avoided and one should contemplate on that and avoid them.
– Those bad samphassa-ja-vedana can be reduced only by changing one’s gati (or anusaya).
– Most people do not realize that one can acquire “bad gati” by just engaging in “bad conscious thoughts” or bad vaci sankhara based on samphassa-ja-vedana. See, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra.” Of course, bad kaya sankhara MUST BE avoided too. But vaci sankhara come before kaya sankhara (upon the arising of samphassa-ja-vedana), and that is why focusing on vaci sankhara is important.
– For example, an alcoholic sees an accessible bottle of alcohol, he gets a nice warm feeling (samphassa-ja-vedana). First, he thinks about having a drink and then, of course, proceeds (with kaya sankhara) to have a drink. So, it must be stopped with the first idea of having a drink (vaci sankhara).

2. Vipaka vedana are the RESULTS of past deeds or past kamma. One may be able to avoid some by acting wisely, but many are UNAVOIDABLE.
– So, one should really investigate how future vipaka vedana can be STOPPED by being mindful and avoiding bad deeds (kaya sankhara) AND bad conscious thoughts and speech (vaci sankhara).

3. By engaging in Vedananupassana, one can reduce bad gati (and thereby anusaya), AND cultivate good gati. That helps cultivate samadhi and panna (wisdom). Getting to samadhi means “cooling down the mind” and a “cooled, calmed” mind can grasp deep Dhamma easier and thereby cultivate panna (wisdom).
– Those results are common to the other three types of Satipatthana too.

4. I am glad that Johnny, y not, and Akmal all thought of the significance of these factors. I hope that we can “connect more dots” and get a better overall picture with the remaining posts in the “Origin of Life” series.

[Lal]

To answer y not’s question: This is the reason that I am writing the new series on the “Origin of Life.”

Our experiences are just a series of events.
– Our experiences are the results of past kamma. We need to remember that kamma can be good, bad, or neutral. Thus vipaka are also good, bad, and neutral.
– Therefore, our experiences are just the results of past causes.
– There is no need for the concept of a “self.”

However, we cannot say that there is “no-self” either since each person responds differently to sensory inputs. That is because each person has different temporary gati. So, this is related to Johnny’s question in the previous comment.
– Therefore, even though there is no “self” like a “soul”, there is a “self” who, based on those experiences starts doing NEW kamma (to enjoy more pleasurable experiences or to avoid unpleasurable ones.)
– Of course, those will bring vipaka in the future, and that is why the rebirth process continues.

Instead of debating whether there is a “self” or “no-self”, we can explain everything in terms of Paticca Samuppada. It may take a few more posts in this series to get there.

[Lal]

y not has sent me the following comment to publish. Apparently, he ran into a problem getting it published at the forum. If anyone else has that problem, please let me know ([email protected]).

y not’s comment:
The Great Discourse on Causation
4. Regarding a Self

The whole section (as well as the whole sutta, for that matter) is worth reading and reflecting upon. With regard to Vedana, the highlight comes just past the half-way point:

“So those who say ‘feeling is my self’ regard as self that which is evidently impermanent, a mixture of pleasure and pain, and liable to rise and fall.”
(Iti so diṭṭheva dhamme aniccasukhadukkhavokiṇṇaṃ uppādavayadhammaṃ attānaṃ samanupassamāno samanupassati, yo so evamāha: ‘vedanā me attā’ti)

Here ‘vedanā me attā’ti’ is translated ‘feeling is my self’ in the sense of asmi mana’, I take it: ‘I’ cannot be other than these feelings; and not in the sense ‘these feelings are anatta’. Is that how it is?

“That’s why it’s not acceptable to regard feeling as self.”
(Tasmātihānanda, etena petaṃ nakkhamati: ‘vedanā me attā’ti samanupassituṃ).
Again, the same question here.

“Now, as to those who say:
‘Feeling is definitely not my self. My self does not experience feeling.’ You should say this to them
“But reverend, where there is nothing felt at all, would the thought “I am” occur there?’”
“No, sir.”
“That’s why it’s not acceptable to regard self as that which does not experience feeling.” *
(‘na heva kho me vedanā attā, appaṭisaṃvedano me attā’ti, so evamassa vacanīyo:
‘yattha panāvuso, sabbaso vedayitaṃ natthi api nu kho, tattha “ayamahamasmī”ti siyā’”ti?
“No hetaṃ, bhante”)

*This verse needs some clarification. It appears to say: that which does NOT experience feeling is anatta.(??)
So, does it follow that which experiences feeling be atta? That cannot be so either, as per the next verse:

“Now, as to those who say:
Feeling is definitely not my self. But it’s not that my self does not experience feeling. My self feels, for my self is liable to feel.’
You should say this to them,
‘Suppose feelings were to totally and utterly cease without anything left over
When there’s no feeling at all, with the cessation of feeling, would the thought “I AM THIS” occur there?’” (my capitals)
“No, sir.”
“That’s why it’s not acceptable to regard self as that which is liable to feel.”
(na heva kho me vedanā ATTA, nopi appaṭisaṃvedano me ATTA, ATTA me vediyati, vedanādhammo hi me ATTA’ti.
So evamassa vacanīyo—
vedanā ca hi, āvuso, sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ aparisesā nirujjheyyuṃ.
Sabbaso vedanāya asati vedanānirodhā api nu kho tattha ‘ayamahamasmī’ti siyā”ti?
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“Tasmātihānanda, etena petaṃ nakkhamati: ‘na heva kho me vedanā attā, nopi appaṭisaṃvedano me attā, attā me vediyati, vedanādhammo hi me attā’ti samanupassituṃ

…then follows the hurdle to surmount:
“Not regarding anything in this way, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.(So evaṃ na samanupassanto na ca kiñci loke upādiyati)
Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.(anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati)

It is clear that vedana are of anatta nature, but in what sense is ‘atta’ intended here? For a person thinks:
‘if I am not my feelings, what else can I be (made of), what else is it worthwhile being made of’? ‘(vedanā me attā’ti samanupassituṃ)’

The hurdle is this: for all but Anagamis and Arahants, it is impossible to conceive of a state of being where sukkha can be (made of) anything else but somanassa vedana. One knows that this is not so in actual fact (for one sees that vedana are anicca), yet one still cannot help perceiving it otherwise. Or, it can be said, the ditthi about dukkha is correct but not the sanna: one still hopes for an existence where to experience those pleasant feelings, even taking occasional unpleasant feelings and the risk of upheaval due to unexpected change (viparinama dukkha) in the bargain, taking even the inevitability of the end of that existence, death, in the bargain.

I would be very grateful if Lal would provide the correct translations of ‘atta’ as the word occurs above, IF they be other than ‘atta’ in the sense of ‘beyond our control’ or ‘beyond our power to influence’, as well as anything that may have escaped my notice, for the full import of at least this section 4 of the sutta.

[Lal]

Gati are not a form of vipaka vedana. But certainly, gati can influence what kind of vipaka vedana can materialize (or prevented).

Gati are habits/character qualities.

Your reference to “Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya” post is exactly right.
– Past kamma are waiting for the right conditions to bring vipaka.
– By acting wisely, one can avoid bad vipaka and also make it likely for good vipaka to happen.
– In the same way, if one is living foolishly, one can (without even knowing) setup conditions for bad past kamma to bring vipaka, and avoid receiving good kamma vipaka.

If one is eating junk food and not exercising, those are bad habits. They can make one get sick often. And the opposite lifestyle will avoid getting sick, injured etc.

If one is an alcoholic/drug addict, those are bad gati and can help set up conditions to get sick, get into fights, lose one’s job, etc.
– If one cultivates gati to engage in meritorious deeds, one is setting up conditions for good vipaka to materialize.

There are many ways to contemplate this.
– Of course, following the Noble Path is the guaranteed way to get rid of bad gati and to cultivate good gati.

[Author]

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