Post on What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!

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    • #25110
      Tobias G
      Participant

      What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!

      As explained in the post dhamma are rupa, too. Dhamma are below suddhashtaka level. How can a dhamma even be below this level when a suddhashtaka is the base unit and cannot be divided?

      Also can someone please add an abhidhamma reference?

    • #25111
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “How can a dhamma even be below this level when a suddhashtaka is the base unit and cannot be divided?”

      Dhammā are rupa that are not detectable with the five physical senses. They are rupa detected with the mana indriya. See, #9 of “What are Dhammā? – A Deeper Analysis.”

      Also see, “Our Two Worlds: Material and Immaterial.”

      Dhammā are, “anidassan appatighan dhammāyatana pariyāpanna rūpan“. I need to find a reference for this particualr verse. If anyone has the reference, please post. I am providing a related reference below.

      The following reference is in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka. Āyata­na­vibhaṅga
      Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅ­khā­rak­khan­dho, yañca rūpaṃ ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ dhammā­yatana­pariyā­pannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.

    • #25112
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Thanks. What means that?:
      Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅ­khā­rak­khan­dho, yañca rūpaṃ ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ dhammā­yatana­pariyā­pannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.

    • #25113
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Dhammā can be analyzed at various levels and in various ways. The above quote is one way to express it.

      Dhammā includes kamma bija, which are in vinnanakkhandha (our future hopes and expectations; of course, expectations do not materialize “as expected”). Those are energies. Kamma vipaka materialize due to them.

      Dhammā includes memories, which do not have any energy. The other three khandhas are included in memories. They are also called nama gotta.

      Finally, Nibbana (asankhata dhatu) is also grasped with the mind. “Mananca paticca dhammeca..”

    • #25114
      y not
      Participant

      mn38/en/sujato:

      The Longer Discourse on the Ending of Craving Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhayasutta

      “….Sāti, the fisherman’s son, had the following harmful misconception:
      “As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, it is this very same consciousness that roams and transmigrates, not another.”
      Several mendicants heard about this.
      “Is it really true, Reverend Sāti, that you have such a harmful misconception.
      “Absolutely, reverends. As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, it is this very same consciousness that roams and transmigrates, not another.”
      Then, wishing to dissuade Sāti from his view, the mendicants pursued, pressed, and grilled him,
      “Don’t say that, Sāti! Don’t misrepresent the Buddha, for misrepresentation of the Buddha is not good. And the Buddha would not say that.
      In many ways the Buddha has said that consciousness is dependently originated, since consciousness does not arise without a cause.”
      (Anekapariyāyenāvuso sāti, paṭiccasamuppannaṃ viññāṇaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā, aññatra paccayā natthi viññāṇassa sambhavo”ti.)

      Now, from Lal’s last entry (above): “…Dhammā includes kamma bija, which are in vinnanakkhandha (our FUTURE hopes and expectations…Those are energies. Kamma vipaka materialize due to them….Dhammā includes memories,….. The other three khandhas are included in memories. ”

      Is that not saying that vinnanakhandha ‘roams and transmigrates’ (along with the other three khandhas, although all four are constantly undergoing change?) Are these dhamma or memories not ever with us? (ready to be accessed, as it were). Or else, a new vinnana and the whole set of khandhas arise for every new bhava, but that has been ruled out.

      It must be that I am missing something fundamental and pivotal here because the distinction is too stark (it seems to me).

    • #25116
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes, y not. You need to see the difference between “rupa” and rupakkhandha. Same for other four khandhas (with the exception of part of vinnanakkhandha; see below.)

      See, “Difference Between Rupa and Rupakkhandha.”

      The vinnanakkhandha is a bit different. All other khandha just go to “memory records” or “nama gotta” as they go to the past.
      – Kamma vinnana are (only associated with mano vinnana) have energies. They are basically kamma bija.
      – The other five types of vinnana (cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya) come to the mind momentarily and then recorded as past events. Same for “vipaka mano vinnana”.
      – See, “Viññāna – What It Really Means.”

      Also, even in kamma vinnana. it is not just one. There can be numerous kamma vinnana (kamma bija) waiting to bring kamma vipaka (including many possible future existences.) Those kamma vinnana that can bring future existences are also called “patisandhi vinnana.”
      – One needs to spend time, contemplating and grasping the ideas.

      Also note that we cannot recall all our memories, especially from past lives. Some children can just recall the immediate previous life.
      – But by cultivating abhinna powers one can recall many past lives. The Buddha could recall as many as he wished.

    • #25315
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I have re-written the post, “Our Two Worlds: Material and Immaterial.”

      Hopefully, it will help further clarify these concepts. Let me know if there are any unresolved issues.

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