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Welcome to the forum, Adomsonh!
It seems that your comment is on a statement by Christian at the beginning of this thread. I will let Christian address it as he thinks appropriate.
Siebe has sent me an email clarifying what he was trying to say in the first question above.
Sieber wrote in the email the following:
“I read this post: https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/rupa-aggregate/what-are-rupa-dhamma-are-rupa-too/
Under point 8 you say….”Kamma beeja — that are generated by our minds (via our thoughts) — are also part of dhammā.
so, there are dhamma generated by our minds, that’s what i said.
and in point 17 you say:…”The basis for making dhammā are our thoughts with javana citta. Those javana generate “kamma beeja” and they give rise to future kamma vipāka. So, those kamma beeja are dhammā. They are very tiny packets of energy below the suddhāshtaka stage.”
That is all correct, Siebe.
Yes. kamma beeja are created by javana citta, and they are part of dhamma.But that is not how you worded your question in your earlier post. That question, in full, was: “From reading the posts it seems dhamma can also come from the mind while produced in javana citta? Can those dhamma that are created in javana citta’s contact mana indriya?”
I am not going to try to analyze what you meant there, Siebe. But it confused me.
Anyway, what you wrote in the email is correct.P.S. I hope everyone will take a bit of time to formulate the questions to make it clear what the question is. Refer to relevant posts with bullet numbers if it is a question about a particular point made in a post. That way, we can avoid misunderstandings like this one.
“From reading the posts it seems dhamma can also come from the mind while produced in javana citta?”
That statement does not make any sense.
– Just like rupa (sights, sounds, smells, etc) come from the external world, dhamma (memories, kamma vipaka, etc) come from the external world. One is a “material world” and the other is an “immaterial world”. That is explained in one of the posts I recommended for you in my previous comment.
– We can see a tree out there or that a sound is emitted when two objects hit each other or that a certain odor is emitted by a flower… But dhamma cannot be “visualized” that way.“I think it needs some attention to explain how it is possible that the experiencing or sensing happens around the heart-region, while we clearly experience all kind of things like emotions, memories, thought in our head?”
– That is because you have not read the posts carefully.
– In recent posts, I have explained in detail how the brain is “working overtime” while watching a movie, for example. It has to process sights coming through the eyes and the sounds coming through the ears continuously while watching a movie.
– That is why we may get a headache if we watch two movies at a stretch.
– And that also explains why we have the perception that thoughts are created in the brain.On the other hand, when we hear traumatic news like the death of a parent or a child or a spouse, we feel that close to the heart. Those feelings are felt in the hadaya vatthu which is located in the mental body overlapping the heart. People say, “my heart became burdened”.
– In especially joyful instances we also feel that close to the heart, not in the head. People say, “my heart became overjoyed”.Siebe asked: “Where do those dhamma come from that are detected by the mana indriya?”
Just like visual signals come to the physical eyes from the external world, dhammā come to the mana indriya from the external world.
– But unlike visual things (trees, people, etc), dhammā cannot be “seen” or “touched” (dhammā are: anidassanam, appatigham dhammayatana pariyapanna rupam).
– Dhamma are in the immaterial world, compared to rupa in the material world. See, “Our Two Worlds: Material and Immaterial.”“Do i understand it correctly, that when there is no mana indriya in a gandhabba that has left the body, there are also no memories in this gandhabba?”
Gandhabba does not have eyes but can see. In the same way, gandhabba does not have a mana indriya but can receive dhammā.
– It is only when a gandhabba is inside a physical body that it needs those six indriya to receive external rupa and dhammā.You may need to go through the relevant posts again to get the idea. Here si another relevant post: “Citta and Cetasika – How Vinnana (Consciousness) Arises.”
Dhamma are rupa below the suddhatthaka stage: “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!.”Good question. Some others may have this question too.
The key is to understand the following:
1. Citta (“thoughts”) arise in the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind). That is located in the manomaya kaya (gandhabba) overlapping the physical heart.
2. Mana indriya is in the brain. Of course, scientists are not aware of that. But mana indriya is like eyes or ears (or other three physical senses).
– Rupa rupa “come in” through the eyes.
– Sadda rupa “come in” through the ears.
– Dhamma rupa (memories, kamma vipaka, etc) “come in” through the mana indriya.3. The brain processes all six types of “incoming” sensory signals. Then those signals are transmitted to the heart (hadaya vatthu) area.
– Signals from the five physical senses received by the five pasada rupa located around the hadaya vatthu and transferred to hadaya vatthu (one at a time). That is what we discussed briefly in recent posts.
– Signals from the mana indriya are transmitted directly to hadaya vatthu.
– More information at, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body.”4. When the physical body dies, the mana indriya dies.
– But the gandhabba comes out with the hadaya vatthu and the five pasada rupa. (That is if there is more kammic energy left in the human bhava.) In that case, the gandhabba may get into another womb and then a new brain will develop with a new mana indriya in the new physical body.Thanks, Siebe and y not.
Very useful information. Much merits to you both.
I have added the links to y not’s post. It is a good idea to read the English translation.
Lang asked, “Is this gandhabba the same word used in a different context? Or is it just mistranslated into “musician”.”
It is definitely not correct to say a gandhabba is a musician.
But as Seng Kiat points out, such descriptions are in dictionaries and in other texts.
As we have discussed, there can be human and animal gandhabbas. Both kinds have subtle “bodies” (more like “energy bodies”), that can get a bit denser by taking in the aroma (smells) of various kinds. Even then we cannot see them.
There are also some (lower level) devas called gandhabbas. In fact, there is a Tipitaka account of such a “deva gandhabba” who was a musician. I don’t remember the name of the sutta, but one time the King of the devas (Sakka) came to see the Buddha, accompanied by a deva gandhabba who was a musician (in deva loka). He played some kind of a musical instrument to get Buddha’s attention in that case.
– That could be how that definition got into the dictionary!I just entered, “suddhatthaka” and it gave one reference.
Thanks, Seng Kiat.
The link did not work for me. However, the link under the other topic did work. So, it could be just me.
But in case others run into the same issue, here is Seng Kiat’s link that did work for me:
Tipitaka SearchHere are the results for “hadayavatthu”
This seems to be a great tool.
Much merits to Seng Kiat!A reference is probably in one of the three original commentaries included in the Tipitaka. I will add that when I have time to look for it.
But “hadaya” means “heart”. “Hadaya vatthu” is the seat of mind that is located (on the gandhabba or the mental body) overlapping the physical heart.
– There is communication between the brain and hadaya vatthu (and the physical heart too). As Lvalio’s post says, modern science is beginning to realize that connection, even though they have no idea about hadaya vatthu.Good question.
I used the wrong word “memory” implying “nama gotta.” It is retained in “temporary bhavanga” or a “temporary state of mind.” I have added #5 there to address that issue as follows. Let me know if it needs further explanation:
5. In the last two Tadārammana (T) cittā, the mind takes in the “flavor” or the “essence” of the sense object and then falls back to the bhavanga state at the termination of the pancadvāra citta vithi. Only the very strong (mahantārammana) citta vithi have them, and such strong impressions are “retained in one’s memory” for a period of time (i.e., one will not forget immediately.)
Until one loses that “temporary memory” it becomes one’s “temporary bhavanga.” For example, when one hears about the death of a parent, one will become sad and that “sad state of mind” will be there for days.
That is explained in detail in the post, “State of Mind in the Absence of Citta Vithi – Bhavanga.”
Of course, ALL happenings are recorded as nāma gotta. Even unimportant events are recorded. The ability to recall events and what detail depends on one’s capabilities. Sometimes, such limited capabilities become possible due to “puñña iddhi” for even average humans. See, “Recent Evidence for Unbroken Memory Records (HSAM).”Lvalio wrote: “None of this (listening to dhammā) is absolutely necessary to accomplish the state of Sotapanna!”
That is not right. My post that you referenced does not say anything like that. If I have given that impression, I need to correct it. Please quote or refer to the bullet # where I wrote that or implied that.
To attain the Sotapanna stage, one needs to see the fruitlessness of craving for worldly things. That is the anicca nature.
However, at that stage one has not yet lost the sanna (perception) that worldly cravings are not fruitful. Thus one cannot help “enjoying the worldly pleasures.”
That is sort of like a smoker who can see that smoking is bad for one’s health. That is like a Sotapanna.
– However, the smoker has not given up smoking yet. He still likes to smoke out of the old habit.That is not a perfect analogy in the following sense.
– A Sotapanna WILL lose the cravings for sensory pleasures within a limited time. Sotapanna’s understanding is NOT reversible.
– A smoker may go back to being a smoker unless he has the WILL POWER to gradually cut down smoking.
– Sotapanna’s PERMANENT understanding WILL INEVITABLY make him/her cut down on cravings for sensory pleasures gradually.P.S. I realized that I forgot to state the relevant point.
– A Sotapanna CANNOT get that understanding without learning the true nature of this world from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha (Noble Person). Because it is a Dhamma that only a Buddha can discover. A normal human CANNOT figure that out by himself/herself, no matter how intelligent he/she is. That is the key point.Lvalio asked me to post the following comment. Apparently he had a problem in posting it. He thinks it is a problem at his end. Anyway, the following is the comment.
None of this (listening to dhammā) is absolutely necessary to accomplish the state of Sotapanna!
Just understand (understand) the true Dhamma (saddhamma) is sufficient.
And how is it necessary that the master, teacher be an Ariya and not only a good person, or a virtuous person, or etc.
But he who teaches the true Dhamma can only be an Ariya (at least one Sotapanna). And how could he teach the real Dhamma if he wasn’t?
Sometimes the person who read and understood the dhammā a little, starts to think about it and suddenly she sees the first noble truth
Only that, seeing the first noble truth is enough to accomplish Sotapanna, because Lord Buddha said that he who sees the 1st immediately sees the other three, because they are the logical consequences of the 1st
“Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination.”“But it is all necessary for maintaining life in a human body. That is how devas must look upon human bodies, much like we look upon pigs – careful to keep a distance, more so due to the much finer sensitivity of their senses.”
OK y not. I see that you had the right idea.
I think most of the points y not is making, are correct.
“…seeing that this box we are in is but a processing mechanism that converts liquids and solids to urine and faeces; the aromas and flavours we so relish turn into detestable waste.”
– That is true.But the next sentence, “Yet we cannot do otherwise, because we are impelled by thirst and hunger.” could be written in a different way.
– There is nothing wrong with eating and drinking (even tasty foods). In fact, we have to eat and drink to maintain our lives. And there is no point is forcibly eating foods that are not tasty.
– The only thing we need to do is to consume any food WITHOUT craving. That loss of craving comes naturally as one realizes the futility of enjoying those “pleasures”. Such cravings keep one bound to the kama loka.What he says next is true too: “Moreover, it is beset by disease, aches, and pains, ending in old age and death. Such is the existence we have to bear;”
– That should be an incentive to make effort without delay to attain Nibbana, at least the first stages of Nibbana.
