December 26, 2018 at 8:23 pm #21011NikitaParticipant
What are your ideas about where could the Mana Indriya be located? My first thought was the pineal gland since it has always been called a “spiritual center” of the brain by many philosophers and scientists throughout the history. There’s a lot of interesting info about this gland on Wikipedia and I also recommend getting familiar with the research work of Rick Strassman and his book “DMT. The Spirit Molecule”.
December 26, 2018 at 11:42 pm #21012TienParticipant
I don’t know the exact location, but I think just know the Mana Indriya located in the brain is enough. Careful when going too deep into these kind of “spiritual” subjects, it may veer you away from the Path to Nibbana.
Better take the precious time to contemplate on the Dhamma itself. The Buddha was said (according to Thanissaro Bhikkhu) “Every morning, looking at the rising sun, think about it as if this is your last morning, what you will do?”. There is so much of the Path to practice and contemplate, start from the very basic levels toward the realization of Nibbana (Dana, Sila, Sagga, Adinava, Nekkhamma and Cattari Ariya Saccani at the end of the gradual training process).
This is the first time I see you in this forum, may you attain Arahant stage in this very life. This is totally possible.
December 27, 2018 at 8:34 am #21015
Tien is correct that it does not really matter much where the mana indriya is located in the brain, for attaining Nibbana.
However, it is good to confirm the teachings of the Buddha with modern science (as new evidence emerge), as long as one does not spend an excessive time doing it.
– It builds faith and also may convince others who are skeptical of Buddha’s teachings.
So, I try to make these connections whenever opportunities arise. I discussed this issue a little bit in #6 of “The Amazing Mind – Critical Role of Nāmagotta (Memories)“.
– Those who are interested in this issue should read the book referred to there.
As I briefly explained in that post, “saññā” or perception (recognition of external objects) depends on the ability to recall memories (nama gotta). We cannot do that without the mana indriya.
– Patient HM discussed in that book lost his ability to recognize people after a tiny part of his brain was removed in order to suppress his epileptic seizures. So, that is where the mana indriya is located.
I will write another post on this issue in the future, but this is real evidence from modern science confirming Buddha’s description of how the mind works.
Thanks for the reference to the book, Nikita. I plan to read it.
December 27, 2018 at 1:22 pm #21021upekkha100Participant
To me highest priority is attaining the stages of Nibbana. But I think one can follow the Path and still wisely make time for exploring other knowledge. Especially if that knowledge greatly complements Buddha Dhamma as Lal said.
Hi Nikita. I’m so glad you brought this up. I’m very interested to know where it is located as well. And I agree, I think it is the pineal gland too.
People with psychic abilities, devas and brahmas can have telepathic abilities. Can read the minds of others and humans. And devas/brahmas have bird’s eye view of humanity, can sense and see things we can’t, might even know more about us than we do about ourselves. So I would not be surprised if at least these people with abinnha powers, devas, and rupi brahmas would know where the mana indriya is.
And I think modern science has found the mana indriya too and are possibly not being totally transparent yet.
Technological telepathy(thought reading, dream viewing) is already here at varying degrees. I personally think thought transmitting as well.
Otherwise how do they explain the following:
1) Scientists ‘read dreams’ using brain scans
Facebook creator Mark Zukerberg quote:
“One day, I believe we’ll be able to send full rich thoughts to each other directly using technology,” Zuckerberg wrote in response to a question about what’s next for Facebook. “You’ll just be able to think of something and your friends will immediately be able to experience it too.” ”
“Facebook Inc on Wednesday pulled aside the curtain on a secretive unit headed by a former chief of the Pentagon’s research arm, disclosing that the social media company is studying ways for people to communicate by thought and touch. ”
” One example of Building 8’s work so far, Dugan said, was an attempt to improve technology that allows people to type words using their minds.
“It sounds impossible, but it’s closer than you may realize,” Dugan said.
“Facebook is looking at using optical imaging – using lasers to capture changes in the properties of neurons as they fire – to glean words straight from our brain before we say them. If these signals can be read, they can be transmitted silently to other people. “
December 27, 2018 at 10:19 pm #21028TienParticipant
To add to this conversation. Scientist have recently (just few days) discovered a new region of brain. This region is unique to human, they think this region maybe what make human special from animals. Like the scientist keep looking for new particles and the new particles keep popping up.
We just can’t know exactly, there are endless possibilities and cannot just base on 1 person (i.e. Patient HM), science experiments need to be perform on large samples and have consistent results, this is why I think digging too deep is kind of a waste of time (especially for us, the Nibbana seekers).
But knowing the general schemes of the working of universe is always good and helps develop Sadda in Dhamma.
December 28, 2018 at 5:48 am #21030NikitaParticipant
Thanks everyone for your replies. Upekkha100, thanks for such a detailed comment with many links, I’ll certainly check them out.
I understand that the subject I brought up is relatively unimportant when considering the main message of the Buddha, but just as Lal said, such small details, when backed up by science, can be of great help to strengthen one’s saddha and appreciate the wisdom of the Buddha even more.
The bottom-line of the book I mentioned was that there is a pineal gland in each and every mammal studied so far, that produces a substance capable of inducing mystical and “transcendental” experiences.
Btw, what about animals without brains? Do they have mana indriya? There are also animals with some of the 5 senses being absent. I know that whales and dolphins cannot smell. Does that mean that their ghana pasada lies dormant?
December 28, 2018 at 6:21 am #21031
“Btw, what about animals without brains? Do they have mana indriya? ”
Even an amoeba has all six sense faculties. It is just that in such lower animals, they are not clearly distinguished. There is still so much that modern science is unable to detect.
For example, scientists have found that even animals with a single cell move towards light. They don’t know how the animal senses light.
December 28, 2018 at 6:33 am #21034
January 1, 2019 at 11:14 am #21109LvalioParticipant
May the Blessings of the Triple Gem (Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha) be with you always!
Diane Van Deren goes the distance
“In 1997, at age 37, Van Deren underwent a six-hour surgery to remove a kiwi-sized portion of her hippocampus, the region of the brain responsible for short-term memory and the processing of emotional information — and the area where her epilepsy originated. After years of seizures, the affected tissue was a dull grey in contrast to the healthy pink of the rest of her brain. There were risks from having her skull sawed open: of anesthesia complications, of a stroke. But they were worth it for Van Deren. “I had a huge fear of dying from a seizure,” she explained.
Indeed, her type of seizures carry a 1 percent chance of death every year, said Van Deren’s neurosurgeon, Mark Spitz, professor in the department of neurology at the University of Colorado and director of its Comprehensive Epilepsy Center. “The brain is connected to the heart, so a seizure can trigger a fatal heart rhythm. That’s how runner Florence Griffith Joyner died — as the result of a seizure,” he said. Spitz said the risks of epilepsy outweighed the risks of surgery.
“Even though there was no guarantee the seizures wouldn’t return, I thought, ‘I’m gonna beat this,’ ” Van Deren said. “I’m trained as a pro athlete — that’s how we think.”
Two weeks post-op, Van Deren ran 10 miles. There was no pain, and there was no seizure that day”.
Very interesting story that was a mystery in that exactly point!
October 17, 2019 at 5:23 am #25200Tobias GParticipant
Everywhere on this website it is stated that the hadaya vatthu is located close to the heart. Is there any Tipitaka/Abhidhamma reference?
October 17, 2019 at 6:29 am #25205
A reference is probably in one of the three original commentaries included in the Tipitaka. I will add that when I have time to look for it.
But “hadaya” means “heart”. “Hadaya vatthu” is the seat of mind that is located (on the gandhabba or the mental body) overlapping the physical heart.
– There is communication between the brain and hadaya vatthu (and the physical heart too). As Lvalio’s post says, modern science is beginning to realize that connection, even though they have no idea about hadaya vatthu.
October 18, 2019 at 4:15 am #25208SengKiatKeymaster
Here is a link where you are able to search the Tipitaka for the word.
Sorry, link with double “http://http://….” causing the error, corrected the above link.
The link above search for the word “hadaya”.
You can narrow down by clicking : Anya, or Tīkā or Aṭṭhakathā and/or Tipitaka (Mūla) as shown below the item found:
Tipitaka (Mūla) (1)
October 18, 2019 at 6:11 am #25210
Thanks, Seng Kiat.
The link did not work for me. However, the link under the other topic did work. So, it could be just me.
But in case others run into the same issue, here is Seng Kiat’s link that did work for me:
Here are the results for “hadayavatthu”
This seems to be a great tool.
Much merits to Seng Kiat!
October 18, 2019 at 7:43 am #25212y notParticipant
No, it is not just you, Lal. Just to dispel that, same here.
October 19, 2019 at 10:23 am #25226
It seems the mana indriya is located in the brain.
My question is, when it is part of the brain, does it not cease to exist when the brain ceases to exist? This does not seem logic to me. So, the question is, in what way is mana indriya relaled to the brain?
October 19, 2019 at 10:50 am #25230
Good question. Some others may have this question too.
The key is to understand the following:
1. Citta (“thoughts”) arise in the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind). That is located in the manomaya kaya (gandhabba) overlapping the physical heart.
2. Mana indriya is in the brain. Of course, scientists are not aware of that. But mana indriya is like eyes or ears (or other three physical senses).
– Rupa rupa “come in” through the eyes.
– Sadda rupa “come in” through the ears.
– Dhamma rupa (memories, kamma vipaka, etc) “come in” through the mana indriya.
3. The brain processes all six types of “incoming” sensory signals. Then those signals are transmitted to the heart (hadaya vatthu) area.
– Signals from the five physical senses received by the five pasada rupa located around the hadaya vatthu and transferred to hadaya vatthu (one at a time). That is what we discussed briefly in recent posts.
– Signals from the mana indriya are transmitted directly to hadaya vatthu.
– More information at, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body.”
4. When the physical body dies, the mana indriya dies.
– But the gandhabba comes out with the hadaya vatthu and the five pasada rupa. (That is if there is more kammic energy left in the human bhava.) In that case, the gandhabba may get into another womb and then a new brain will develop with a new mana indriya in the new physical body.
October 19, 2019 at 2:45 pm #25234
Please correct me i am wrong:
The ‘input’ of the 5 pasada rupa are signals from the brain. Those signals from the brain are results of processed sensory data from the outside world coming trough the physical eye, ear, tongue, nose and body. When texts mention the senses of eye, ear, etc not the physical senses are meant but the five pasada rupa’s.
The mana indriya can ‘communicate’ immediately with hadaya vatthu, that does not go via a pasada rupa. The input of mana indriya are called dhamma or mana rupa.
-Where do those dhamma come from that are detected by the mana indriya? Do they come from the brain or do they come from the mind?
-Do i understand it correctly, that when there is no mana indriya in a gandhabba that has left the body, there are also no memories in this gandhabba? Or are only certain memories not present?
(I notice i find it hard to see that mana indriya does not experience, right? It only detects. This is not easy to see because so much of our life is experienced of happening in our head).
October 19, 2019 at 4:03 pm #25235
Siebe asked: “Where do those dhamma come from that are detected by the mana indriya?”
Just like visual signals come to the physical eyes from the external world, dhammā come to the mana indriya from the external world.
– But unlike visual things (trees, people, etc), dhammā cannot be “seen” or “touched” (dhammā are: anidassanam, appatigham dhammayatana pariyapanna rupam).
– Dhamma are in the immaterial world, compared to rupa in the material world. See, “Our Two Worlds: Material and Immaterial.”
“Do i understand it correctly, that when there is no mana indriya in a gandhabba that has left the body, there are also no memories in this gandhabba?”
Gandhabba does not have eyes but can see. In the same way, gandhabba does not have a mana indriya but can receive dhammā.
– It is only when a gandhabba is inside a physical body that it needs those six indriya to receive external rupa and dhammā.
You may need to go through the relevant posts again to get the idea. Here si another relevant post: “Citta and Cetasika – How Vinnana (Consciousness) Arises.”
Dhamma are rupa below the suddhatthaka stage: “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!.”
October 20, 2019 at 7:44 am #25250
From reading the posts it seems dhamma can also come from the mind while produced in javana citta? Can those dhamma that are created in javana citta’s contact mana indriya?
I think it needs some attention to explain how it is possible that the experiencing or sensing happens around the heart-region, while we clearly experience all kind of things like emotions, memories, thought in our head? It is like the head/brain does not only detect but also experiences/senses things. Of maybe the mind is overlapping the brain region?
October 20, 2019 at 8:12 am #25251
“From reading the posts it seems dhamma can also come from the mind while produced in javana citta?”
That statement does not make any sense.
– Just like rupa (sights, sounds, smells, etc) come from the external world, dhamma (memories, kamma vipaka, etc) come from the external world. One is a “material world” and the other is an “immaterial world”. That is explained in one of the posts I recommended for you in my previous comment.
– We can see a tree out there or that a sound is emitted when two objects hit each other or that a certain odor is emitted by a flower… But dhamma cannot be “visualized” that way.
“I think it needs some attention to explain how it is possible that the experiencing or sensing happens around the heart-region, while we clearly experience all kind of things like emotions, memories, thought in our head?”
– That is because you have not read the posts carefully.
– In recent posts, I have explained in detail how the brain is “working overtime” while watching a movie, for example. It has to process sights coming through the eyes and the sounds coming through the ears continuously while watching a movie.
– That is why we may get a headache if we watch two movies at a stretch.
– And that also explains why we have the perception that thoughts are created in the brain.
On the other hand, when we hear traumatic news like the death of a parent or a child or a spouse, we feel that close to the heart. Those feelings are felt in the hadaya vatthu which is located in the mental body overlapping the heart. People say, “my heart became burdened”.
– In especially joyful instances we also feel that close to the heart, not in the head. People say, “my heart became overjoyed”.
October 20, 2019 at 1:36 pm #25256
Siebe has sent me an email clarifying what he was trying to say in the first question above.
Sieber wrote in the email the following:
Under point 8 you say….”Kamma beeja — that are generated by our minds (via our thoughts) — are also part of dhammā.
so, there are dhamma generated by our minds, that’s what i said.
and in point 17 you say:…”The basis for making dhammā are our thoughts with javana citta. Those javana generate “kamma beeja” and they give rise to future kamma vipāka. So, those kamma beeja are dhammā. They are very tiny packets of energy below the suddhāshtaka stage.”
That is all correct, Siebe.
Yes. kamma beeja are created by javana citta, and they are part of dhamma.
But that is not how you worded your question in your earlier post. That question, in full, was: “From reading the posts it seems dhamma can also come from the mind while produced in javana citta? Can those dhamma that are created in javana citta’s contact mana indriya?”
I am not going to try to analyze what you meant there, Siebe. But it confused me.
Anyway, what you wrote in the email is correct.
P.S. I hope everyone will take a bit of time to formulate the questions to make it clear what the question is. Refer to relevant posts with bullet numbers if it is a question about a particular point made in a post. That way, we can avoid misunderstandings like this one.
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