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The following post is from cubiboi (Lang):
Hi,
I have some follow-up questions/thoughts from the thread in
Post on “Memory Records-critical part of five aggregates”
… but I thought it would be more relevant here.
In the other thread, the words asankata dhātu caught my attention since they made nibbana a little more “concrete”. I went back to this thread to review, and I also reread this post:
Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti
I then couldn’t resist churning those abstract concepts in my mind and wished to have them clarified.
Under #16 in Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti
… we have:
“Arahant phala samāpatti is where an Arahant experiences the pabhassara citta, a pure citta with just the universal cētasika, where the saññā cētasika is not contaminated. Nibbānā is the thought object made contact with phassa cētasika and vēdana and saññā are based on that (we have no idea about that).”
So the asankata dhātu makes contact with the phassa cētasika in the pabhassara citta, and thus here is the “interface” between “this world” and Nibbānā.
Can we also say that the asankata dhātu is “everywhere”, and when the citta is purified to the pabhassara stage then it is “seen”?
Proceeding to nirōdha samāpatti, even the phassa cētasika (plus the other 6 universals) also drop, and it’s almost “all” asankata dhātu (plus the jivitindriya rūpa). Then at parinibbana, it’s “total” asankata dhātu. The path to parinibbāna is one of dropping cētasikā (from asobhana to sobhana to the universals) and all rūpa. Looked at in this way, the asankata dhātu is then the only “real thing” (the only thing “left standing”) at the end of it all.
Also under #16:
“When an Arahant is not in nirōdha samāpatti or Arahant phala samāpatti, his/her citta get only to the “manō” state, in the sequence that normally ends up in the viññānkkhandha state for a normal human”This means that the ordinary experience of an arahant is NOT viññānkkhandha like the rest of us, since viññānkkhandha is already defiled. If we were to make up a word to describe an arahant’s daily experience, perhaps it could be “manōcittākkhanda”?
Going “down” to the other magga phala stages. I often hear descriptions such as “One becomes a Sōtapanna at the first glimpse/taste/realization of Nibbāna. And the experience of Nibbāna gets “deeper” at subsequent stages.”
Here, the “experience of Nibbāna” has to be the cooling down (“niveema”) that Lal told us numerous times. It can’t be the contact with the asankata dhātu since the citta of a Sōtapanna, Sakadagami, and Anāgami is not the pabhassara citta.
Again, just some thoughts I couldn’t help after seeing the words asankata dhātu. I appreciate any clarification or feedback of anything erroneous.
Best,
LangP.S. Finally, I now realize that all description of Nibbāna I read elsewhere has been nirōdha samāpatti (without the author using these words). Nibbāna was an either/or thing, and it sounded so “unattainable”. Here, learning about the different levels of “cooling down” gives one more hope that the Sōtapanna stage is attainable.
The following is from Hojan in reply to the request by Aniduan above.
Here’s live streaming from “Dharmayai Obai Jethavanarama Viharaya”
“Streamed LIVE from Jethavarama Viharaya Monastery, Ingiriya, Sri Lanka. To join future sermons live tune in to our LIVE YouTube stream every Sunday at 14:00 Colombo time.”
With Metta,
hojanYes, Yeos. It is part of the dukkha.
Until the brain of a baby develops, a baby cannot express itself fully.
– The full development of the brain takes seven years (also according modern science). That is why the minimum age to be an Arahant is seven years.It is really miccha ditthi because it is an asobhana cetasika.
Yes. It is there because one is unaware of the real nature (anicca, dukkha, anatta).
– That is why Samma Ditthi is the first step in the Noble Eightfold Path.Lang’s questions:
“So another way we can say anything about Nibbana is asankata dhatu. Short of parinibbana, is this what is “experienced” by someone in Nirodha samapatti?”Yes. Nirodha samapatti means “without any citta”. Nothing about this “world” is experienced.
“And this asankata dhatu must be “one of a kind”. All other dhatu, the kind made out of the maha bhuta, are “sankata”, correct?”
Yes. Everything in ‘this world” is included in the six dhatu of pathavī dhātu, āpo dhātu, tejo dhātu, vāyo dhātu, ākāsa dhātu, viññāṇa dhātu.
– asankata dhatu is devoid of any of that.“So an Arahant will create neither a set of pasada rupa (and therefore no pancakkhandha) nor a hadaya vatthu.”
This should be stated as: “An Arahant will not create a hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa for a FUTURE EXISTENCE.”
– That is why an Arahant is NOT reborn ANYWHERE in the 31 realms.
– Any rebirth is associated with a hadaya vatthu (and a set of pasada rupa, other than for an arupavacara Brahma).The pancakkhandha of that lifestream WILL REMAIN in this world (in the “nama loka.”)
– But that is just a record of all activities of that lifestream UPTO the moment of Parinibbana.
– Nothing will be added to that RECORD after the Parinibbana since there is no living-being generating citta.
– All records of previous Buddhas, Arahants remain. That is how Buddha Gotama was able to provide account about previous Buddhas, by looking at their records in the “nama loka.I suggest re-reading several recent posts on the Five Aggregates, and the post on Nibbana referred to below.
I think your other questions are related to that.
– An Arahant lives life just like us UNTIL Parinibbana.
– An Arahant is IN this world UNTIL Parinibbana (full Nibbana). That lifestream DOES NOT EXIST in this world after Prinibbana. It is in the asankata dhatu (full Nibbaba) AFTER the death of the physical body.
– See, “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World.”P.S.
Y not wrote: “Surely, all those Arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Buddhas realized that Nibbana, having had a glimpse of it, is not only the ending of suffering (i.e.conductive to a ‘neutral’ state, to freedom from suffering), but a positive and unsurpassable state of Absolute and Ultimate Bliss.”“Nibbanic bliss” (after Parinibbana) is NOT a vedana (feelings). Anything that is in “this world of 31 realms” including vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana, and rupa (material forms) are NOT in Nibbana.
– The bliss is to stop ANY and ALL future suffering.
– It is critical to read and understand the post on Nibbana above.That was not correct.
I have revised that as: “alobha (absence of greed); adosa (absence of hate/anger, of which mettā or “loving-kindness” is a part); tatramajjhattatā (neutrality of mind, of which upekkhā is a part);.”
I made a few more corrections to that old post.
Thank you, Tobias!
Domanassa vedana could arise when someone is depressed by a kayika vedana (due to avijja). Of course, the kayika vedana is a kamma vipaka.
– By the way, karma is a Sanskrit word. We should try to use Pali words like kamma and Nibbana (instead of nirvana). I know that we are so used to using these Sanskrit words.Another way to look at this is that ALL factors of akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada are eliminated at the Arahant stage.
– However, those are just the factors in the “niddesa” version above.
– For example, “smphassa-ja-vedana” will not arise in Arahant. But kayika vedana (sukha or dukkha) will arise until Parinibbana (death of the Arahant).Your friend should start learning Dhamma. That is the way to reduce avijja and gradually reduce smphassa-ja-vedana.
Hello Usitha,
Welcome to the forum! Glad to hear about your progress.
Yes. Any current suffering via the body is due to past kamma. We need to bear any such suffering with upekkha. Of course, one MUST engage in all possible remedies like medical help, good exercise, healthy foods, etc.
As you said, it is smphassa-ja-vedana or the vedana that we create in our minds that lead to FUTURE suffering.
– Yes. We create them because of the ignorance (or absence of full clarity) of the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature.Yes. All mental dukkha vedana (domanassa vedana) are mind-made or smphassa-ja-vedana.
By the way, the steps in the Paticca Samuppada need to be understood in this wider context.
The “uddesa” version is: ““avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāna; viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana, salāyatana paccayā phassō, phassa paccayā vēdanā, vēdanā paccayā taṇhā, taṇhā paccayā upādāna, upādāna paccayā bhavō, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā, marana, soka-paridēva-dukkha-dōmanassupāyasā sambhavan’ti”
In the “niddesa” or “expanded” version: ““avijjā paccayā abhisaṅkhāra; abhisaṅkhāra paccayā kamma viññāna; kamma viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana, salāyatana paccayā samphassō, samphassa paccayā smphassa-ja-vēdanā, smphassa-ja-vēdanā paccayā taṇhā, taṇhā paccayā upādāna, upādāna paccayā bhavō, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā, marana, soka-paridēva-dukkha-dōmanassupāyasā sambhavan’ti”
“Uddesa” and “niddesa” levels of explanations are important in sutta interpretations too: “Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta – Structure“
Yes. I listened to part of the desana starting at 30 minutes as y not suggested.
It has nothing to do with a traditional (and wrong) breath meditation. It is a good discourse.
– We should not make judgments based on just the title without listening first.The following post is from Aniduan:
I listened to portions of this meditation by Amadassana Thero (from
Dharmayai Obai Sermons): “2020-04-26 DOSE (Breathing Meditation)“.He is teaching breath meditation. Based on what I read on this puredhamma website Buddha did not teach breath meditation. Waharaka Thero was Buddha’s lineage and if Amadassana Thero was Waharaka Thero’s student I wonder why he is teaching breath meditation.
Hello Lang,
Those four things mentioned in the “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)” are “imponderables.’
They CANNOT BE grasped FULLY by anyone but a Buddha.
– That means we can understand them to some extent, but not in full detail. So, the Buddha said not to try to understand them in great detail, for one could spend one’s whole life and not be satisfied.
– Furthermore, that would take time away from pursuing the most important objective of attaining Nibbana.Regarding jhana: Just like the other three subjects, one will never be able to learn everything about jhana, including iddhi powers that can be cultivated.
– For example, Ven. Moggallana was only second to the Buddha in iddhi powers. But once he decided to “explore” the vast universe and got lost. Buddha had to come to his “rescue.”You are correct, oetb!
I just revised #6 on that old post as follows:
“6. The Buddha said, “..bhikkhus, sentient beings reborn as humans are few as this bit of sand on my fingernail. But those not reborn as humans are many as the sand on this great Earth. Therefore, you should strive diligently and without delay to end this suffering in the rebirth process”. That statement appears to most people as an exaggeration. That quote is from the post, “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm”.”Regarding the second part of your above comment:
Yes. It is extremely difficult to “come back up” once born in an apaya.
As for humans, the problem is the following. Many people engage in good deeds. However, it is very easy for a human (one who has not grasped the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature) to be TEMPTED by sense desires.
– By the way, the fraction of HUMANS getting a rebirth in a good realm (after the human bhava, which may last thousands of years as Lvalio pointed out above), is higher than what the Buddha quoted in the above sutta.
– Those in the apayas are MUCH MORE numerous than the human population. There are more living beings (belonging to the animal realm) in your backyard soil than the entire human population on Earth! That is why the “sand on a fingernail” analogy applies to ALL living beings.
– If we just take the humans who are reborn, they have better odds of being born human again. Still, it is quite low.The following post is from oetb.
Thanks!
I just wrote a reply, but I do not copy it before posting, and it has not been posted (I lost the reply). I’ll make a very brief resume.
The quote I made is the quote in point 6 of Wrong Views (Miccā Diṭṭhi) – A Simpler Analysis, and it seems to me that that quote tells that the very next bhava (those who depart from) of practically all human beings is one in the apayas. That is not exactly the same as saying that to grasp a human bhava is very rare.
As I had understood, beings in the apayas are “perpetuated” there because with the conditions they have is very easy to do akusala abhisankhara and very difficult to do puñña abhisankhara, so they are helpless, and for them, it is very very exceptional to grasp a human bhava after their actual bhava in the apayas. But I thought that humans are not so helpless. Humans have better conditions and more chances to do good deeds or cultivating merits. If the above quote is literally, then humans would be helpless and all good humans that try to live morally or to cultivate merits do it in vain (I am referring in the short term, i.e. in the very next bhava, not in the long term, where only Sotapannas and above are safe).
