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Yes. You are right. I did not address it fully. I was only focusing on “kāma assāda” in my comment above.
You asked: “So we can say that assāda is more broad term. So, assāda encompasses jhanic pleasure as well.”
– Yes. Kāma assāda are only part of assāda. Brahmas have assāda for jhanic pleasures.You asked:‘Also, Rupavacara Brahmas and other higher brahmas would still have lot of pleasure which would come from their existence in higher state itself, right?”
– Yes. Any living being has assāda for different types of sensory experiences. Arupavacara Brahmas (in the highest 4 realms) have assāda for arupavacara samapatti (nowadays they are called higher jhana, but that is not correct. I will address that in the new post coming up).I have revised the post, “Sensual Pleasures – The Hidden Suffering“.
– I did that in a hurry because I have to leave now for a couple of hours. Let me know if there are other issues to be addressed in it.P.S. Also see, “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra“
The easiest ways to think about the term “sensual pleasures” (or kama raga) are as follows.
1. One experiences sensual pleasures only in the realms belonging to Kama loka. The four apayas do not have significant sensual pleasures. It is only in the human and Deva realms that have sensual pleasures.
– No sensual pleasures in the 4 rupavacara or 16 arupavacara Brahma realms.2. Sensual pleasures are based on the “direct” sensory contact with the tongue, nose, and body.
– However, eyes and ears can be used (indirectly) too. For example, in watching an adult movie the “enjoyment” is based on watching activities with physical contact.
– Rupavacara Brahmas have eyes and ears. But they don’t use them for sensual pleasures. As we have discussed, births in Brahma realms can be possible only for those who have (at least temporarily) overcome sensual pleasures (kama raga). See, “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra“of course, the “red side” is correct.
– I don’t think the “green side” explains the reverse of the “red side”.
– Do you understand it? If so, describe briefly.I am saying that it is unproductive to try to analyze what Thanissaro Bhikkhu is trying to explain because he does not seem to have an understanding of Paticca Samuppada. Didn’t he start the essay with, “The topic of becoming, although it features one major paradox, contains other paradoxes as well..” in the Preface (p. 5)
– What paradoxes are there?
– Why do you keep going back to that, if he says it is a paradox?We know that future births arise due to one’s own actions based on (abhi)sankhara generation via avijja.
– That process is Paticca Samuppada (PS).How far have you progressed in understanding the first steps of PS?
– No need to rush through. But it is critically important to understand PS. You should be asking questions on sankhara, vinnana, etc. if not clear.No. It is hard.
– One must get to the fourth jhana and then practice coming out of the physical body first.
– Even that is an initial step. I know some people who can come out of the physical body. But none has iddhi powers.
– However, Devadatta had iddhi powers, lost them, and was born in an apaya. We all had iddhi powers in previous lives, many times over.1 user thanked author for this post.
1. I understand your frustration. It is not your fault that most of the current interpretations are way off.
– I also see that most translators are in your position as well. They learned these incorrect translations from their teachers.
– It would be good if those translators get to see my posts on objections to their translations in “Elephants in the Room.”
– I welcome them to make rebuttals if they think my interpretations (based on what I learned from Waharaka Thero) are incorrect. We can have discussions at the forum here or anywhere else.2. Now, let us get back to your questions.
– As I remember, you have been focused on the concept of gandhabba. That could be a wrong starting point.3. It may be a good idea to understand the key terms in Paticca Samuppada first: sankhara, vinnana, nama rupa, etc.
– See, “Understanding the Terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda“.
– The “Search” box at the top right is a good resource too.4. If you like to continue with the above questions on “bhava”, you should at least read the posts under “Viññāṇa – Two Critical Meanings“.
– that is one sub-section in the link in #3 above.
– Please let me know once you understand how “kamma vinnana” arise due to “(abhi)sankhara.” That is the “sankhara paccaya vinnana” step in Paticca Samuppada. If you have questions about that, let us discuss them first. We need to start from the first principles.P.S. I just saw your latest comment where you wrote:
“Dipohasadhamma mentioned “I am (at present) at a loss for WHAT this seed of consciousness is”.We have many “kamma bija” (seeds) in “kamma bhava” that can give rise to rebirths in a variety of existences (“uppatti bhava”). Such “kamma bija” are created by “kamma vinnana.”
– Of course, only the strongest seed is grasped (upadana).
– That is why it is critical to understand Paticca Samuppada.Before I answer the questions on bhava, I want to make sure that you understand what those translators do not understand, i.e., that there are kamma vinnana (that the Buddha stopped from arising at the Buddhahood), and vipaka vinnana (which the experienced until his passing away or Parinibbana.
– I am not sure whether you have read the relevant posts on that.I will respond to the questions later on. But I quickly scanned the attached document by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
On p. 131 of the pdf, it translates the terms in the “reverse order Paticca Samuppada” from SN 12:2. To quote: “Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance
comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the
cessation of consciousness..”We know that the Buddha’s mind became free of avijja (“the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance” per the above quote) on the night of Enlightenment.
– So, did the Buddha become unconscious at that point?
– No wonder he starts the essay with, “The topic of becoming, although it features one major paradox, contains other paradoxes as well..” in the Preface (p. 5)
– “Bhava” (in his translation “becoming”) is not a paradox if one understands Paticca Samuppada.It is not just him. The following is the translation of SN 12.2 at Sutta Central
“Vibhaṅga Sutta (SN 12.2)”
– There the translation is: “When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases.”My question is: Why do people take these translations seriously?
– If they cannot explain what is stated by, “Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā saṅkhāranirodho; saṅkhāranirodhā viññāṇanirodho” they obviously cannot explain many other concepts including “bhava”.Possibly, but not definitive.
– Animals do things like robots. So, their kamma generation is different. But it requires an Abhidhamma analysis involving what types of citta can be generated by animals.
– We need to worry about the types of kamma humans can do. A human is capable of doing ALL types of kamma, good and bad.I most likely wrote: a “sotapanna with anariya jhana Will also not take birth in the kamaloka”
When you quote me, please link the post and the exact quote. It is a dangerous practice to say, “you wrote this and that” without providing a link to the quote.
Getting attacked by an animal is a kamma vipaka. It can happen to even an Arahant.
– For example, bāhiyo dārucīriya was killed by a cow just after attaining the Arahanthood. See, “Bāhiya Sutta (Ud 1.10)”
– The same thing happened to Pukkusāti: “Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta (MN 140)”
– See the end of the sutta in both cases.Also, we remember that Ven. Moggalana was killed by a bunch of people.
– Thus, as long as one lives with a human body, any kamma vipaka corresponding to the human realm can take place (good or bad).
– Of course, only a Buddha’s life cannot be taken by anyone. But a Buddha can be injured, as Devadatta did to Buddha Gotama.P.S. Cultivating Metta Bhavana can get rid of some such kamma vipaka, but not all.
As I have explained before, one needs to be an Anagami to attain the first Ariya jhana.
– That is because kama raga anusaya is not there (i.e., kama raga must be completely removed) to get to the first Ariya jhana.
– Anyone below the Anagami stage would still have kama raga anusaya.It is a bit difficult at first to grasp these concepts. But once you understand the fundamentals, it will be much easier.
– One big obstacle is our tendency to evaluate everything based on the physical world.
– In the Western world, the mind gets a “back seat”. We can see that only the five physical senses are recognized.
– But in Buddha Dhamma, the mind is primary and material phenomena are secondary.
– That is why it is hard to understand some mental aspects and laws of kamma. Gandhabba is “much smaller” than an atom in modern science, yet it is the essence of a human!By the way, when I looked at the settings of the “PRINT/PDF” button, it is now possible to email a post too. I have added that capability. Thanks for that.
– I have also written to the people who make that software to ask whether it is possible to have that feature in the discussion forum.Unfortunately, that option is not there for the forum. But you can always right-click on the page and print the needed pages. It is not as clean.
Your questions:
“1. Gandhabba (containing anusaya gati) senses an available zygote (womb), one that is gati compatible with the parents.”
No. Gandhabba does not have any control over that. A gandhabba is pulled into a matching womb by kammic energy. That is mentioned in several posts.
– It is not possible to write all the details in one post. That is why you should make a list and go through all available posts.“2. Gandhabba enters the womb and triggers the body to grow.”
Again, gandhabba is not aware of this process. Once in a womb, it may not be conscious until the brain is developed. Brain development happens gradually and is complete around seven years of age. Even inside the womb, it is conscious to a varying degree.
“3. The brain facilitates consciousness only when arammana (sensory stimulus/pasada rupa) is present, thus mind (hadaya vatthu) is established. The arammana corresponds to the strongest kamma from a person’s past.”
Arammana is simply a sensory input. How do we hear a sound? That sound wave hits the ears and vibrates the eardrums. That signal goes to the brain where it is processed into a “sound signal” that is transmitted to the sota pasada rupa. That pasada rupa transfers the signal to hadaya vatthu (like a gong hitting a bell) and makes the hadaya vatthu vibrate 17 times (that is the citta vithi with 17 citta). The “sound sensation” arises in the hadaya vatthu with that citta vithi.
– That is explained in some posts including “Does any Object (Rupa) Last only 17 Thought Moments?”“4. It is a person’s individual gandhabba (containing anusaya gati) that is the thing that always keeps a person linked to who and what they are despite loss of consciousness or death.”
Yes.
