May 17, 2022 at 7:48 am #37522ZapperParticipant
I have encountered a small problem.
I was reading this post and the pali version of paticcasamuppadavibhanga on suttacentral (Paṭiccasamuppāda Vibhaṅga) and I found out that your paticcasamuppada cycle is a bit different from the paticcasamuppadavibhanga sutta.
This is your paticcasamuppada cylce:
“kusalamūla paccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmarupaṃ, nāmarupa paccayā salāyatanaṃ, salāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā pasādo, pasāda paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkha paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā maraṇaṃ. Evametesaṃ dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti.”
And this is the paticcasamuppada cylce from the sutta:
kusalamūla paccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṁ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā pasādo, pasāda paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkha paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.
I have put the different Pali words in bold.
We can see that your post has “namarupa” and the sutta has “nama”,
also your post has “salayatana” and the sutta has “chatthayatana”.
To me it seems like nama and chattayatana make more sense becase in the kusala-mula cycle because there is no material formation (namarupa) but only nama hence chattayatana (not salayatana which are defiled six sense bases).
I think you need to fix this issue.
I am sorry if I am wrong, please correct me if the mistake is on my side.
May 17, 2022 at 8:47 am #37529Tobias GParticipant
“chaṭṭhā” means sixth, hence the sixth ayatana or manayatana.
May 17, 2022 at 9:15 am #37536LalKeymaster
First, you should have been able to put in the full text. There is no need to break up a post into many pieces. I have combined your posts into one. If you run into the same problem, please send me an email describing what happens: [email protected].
Your reference at Sutta Central is a complex Abhidhamma analysis of Paticca Samuppada.
– Most people can’t understand that analysis until the basic version of Paticca Samuppada is understood.
– That is why there is no English translation for that at Sutta Central. They don’t understand it either.
– Tobias G understands that complex process. That is why he commented above. But it requires a lengthy explanation.
There are a few versions, even in the basic versions of Paticca Samuppada (PS).
– “Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda” describes PS processes that take place within a lifetime.
– “Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda (How We Create Our Own Rebirths)” describes the PS process responsible for future rebirths.
It is best first to understand the Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda.
– I have described it in detail: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime“
May 18, 2022 at 5:54 am #37537LalKeymaster
I forgot to mention: The suttas on Paṭicca Samuppāda are in the Sutta Pitaka, not in the Abhidhamma section.
The main series of those suttas start with the “Paṭiccasamuppāda Sutta (SN 12.1)“.
However, especially for those just starting to understand Paṭicca Samuppāda, reading word-by-word translations of suttas is not likely to be helpful. That is because suttas are in a highly-condensed form that requires detailed explanations.
– See my post, “Pāli Canon Is Self-Contained but Requires Detailed Explanation”
I recommend reading the recently detailed explanation: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
– I will start on a few posts to simplify that analysis with some examples in the next post.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.