Question about Avijjāmūlakakusalaniddesa from the Paticcasamuppadavibhanga

Welcome! Forums Kamma and Kamma Vipāka Question about Avijjāmūlakakusalaniddesa from the Paticcasamuppadavibhanga

Viewing 3 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #34807
      TripleGemStudent
      Participant

      From the Paticcasamuppadavibhanga.

      2. Kusalaniddesa
      2.10.1. 2.10.1 Kāmāvacarakusalacitta
      2.10.1.1. Mahākusalacitta

      Kusala paccaya sankharo . . . ends with Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.

      #1. This “kusala paccaya”, is this an example of Punnabhi kamma or kusala kamma done without the comprehension of the Four noble truths or the Tilakkhana?

      2.12.1. Avijjāmūlakakusalaniddesa

      2.12.4. Lokuttarakusalacitta

      Katame dhammā kusalā? Yasmiṁ samaye lokuttaraṁ jhānaṁ bhāveti niyyānikaṁ apacayagāmiṁ diṭṭhigatānaṁ pahānāya paṭhamāya bhūmiyā pattiyā vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati dukkhapaṭipadaṁ dandhābhiññaṁ, tasmiṁ samaye avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā pasādo, pasādapaccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.

      #2. I was surprised to see this. I’m not 100% certain how this avijja paccaya ends with “Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti”. If I was to try to make sense of this based on my current understanding. It seems like this “avija paccaya” is related to ariya’s? As long as one has attained magga phala, even if one act’s with avija, they are still destined to attain Nibbana? I also notice that there’s no tanha and upadana.

      Or this P.S teaches about our current life and how it arise due to avija and as long as we can attain the lokuttara kusala citta, stop tanha and upadana, we’re destined for Nibbana?

    • #34810
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I need to take a look at it before commenting.

      However, note that in the second question, “..viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ,..” instead of the usual “..vinnana paccaya namarupam, namarupa paccaya salayatanam..”

      There are 4 sub-Paticca Samuppada cycles running within each PS cycle. I believe that is what the Paticcasamuppadavibhanga described, per the above quote.

      I have avoided this subject because it is too complex for most people to understand. And it is not necessary to go into such detail either.

    • #34812
      Lal
      Keymaster

      First of all, this topic is better suited for the Abhidhamma section. But it is too late now to move it there.

      Regarding Question #1 and #2 of TripleGemStudent:

      It seems that this section of Paticcasamuppadavibhanga MAY HAVE some mistakes.
      – However, without spending a lot of time I cannot say for sure.
      – As I mentioned in the earlier comment, within each Paticca Samuppada cycle, there are 4 sub-cycles. This is why the Buddha told Ven. Ananda that Paticca Samuppada can get to very deep levels. See, “Mahānidāna Sutta DN 15)” English translation there: “The Great Discourse on Causation
      – The way it is written, it is very difficult to sort out the sequences involved in the 4 sub-cycles as I explained to Seng Kiat last year in an email exchange. Hopefully, that will make it clear somewhat. Obviously, this complex process cannot be described in a post or even a couple of posts. But you can get a rough idea of the complexity involved.

      Seng Kiat:

      In the Kusala-Mūla Paṭicca Samuppāda topic under #3, the “ viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana, saḷāyatana paccayā phasso” should be replaced with “ viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṃ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso”.

      The nāma and chaṭṭāyatana are mentioned only in the Vibhaṅga of Tipiṭaka Abhidhamma section 6 Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga under “2.2 Kusalaniddesa 2.10.1. 2.10.1 Kāmāvacarakusalacitta 2.10.1.1. Mahākusalacitta”.

      The chaṭṭāyatana is the sixth āyatana which is the mind (mano).

      #6 nāma only without the rūpa.

      #7 (nāma only) and #8 saḷāyatana also to be replaced with chaṭṭhāyatana.

      My Reply:

      This is a bit complex process that you mentioned. There are three more steps to it, to complete. You may be able to see that if you read further there.

      The process that I describe in the post is the NET RESULT.

      It is section 2. 2 Abhidhammabhājanīya close to the beginning of the webpage:
      https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms

      The KUSALA-MULA process that you refer to comes much later.

      The Vibhanga (for some reason) explains ONLY the AKUSALA-MULA PS process in detail (over many pages until the KUSALA-MULA section that you refer to.

      I would not have been able to figure that out if I did not have access to the discourses of Waharaka Thero. He explained that in detail.

      As I said previously, “It is not easy to follow those 16 cycles. There are 4 cycles each for 2.1. Paccayacatukka, 2.2. Hetucatukka, 2.3. Sampayuttacatukka, 2.4. Aññamaññacatukka.

      That means for four types of paccaya: paccaya, hetu, sampayutta, Aññamañña.
      – As you can see there are four cycles (catukka) within each.”

      Such a DETAILED analysis is NOT given for the KUSALA-MULA process.
      – It just stops after the first step in a 16-step process.
      – But if you go through the AKUSALA-MULA steps you may be able to see what I am trying to say.
      – It seems that part of the Vibhanga did not get transmitted!
      – It is too bad that Waharaka Thero is not there to ask.

    • #34814
      TripleGemStudent
      Participant

      Thank you Lal for doing your best to explain such a complex subject.

      What I have realized to be the most important thing when learning the Buddha Dhamma is to understand / get the general idea of of what’s being taught and making sure it’s consistent with the other teachings in the Buddha Dhamma. So far what I have learned from this website, I find pretty much everything is consistent relating to the other teachings in the Buddha dhamma. Because of seeing this consistency and what’s being taught in the Buddha Dhamma, it really changed the way that I saw and understood about the triple gem.

      Currently, it seems like some of the finer details about the Buddha Dhamma, we might not be able to work out due to our own level of understanding and some teachings in the Tipitaka might require the commentaries or Arahants to explain it clearly and fully.

      Fortunately, it seems like some of these more fine details are not necessary needed for one to attain magga phala. Although it might be useful/beneficial to people with higher magga phala attainments, but what’s most important is attaining magga phala. There’s many stories about people attaining magga phala from just hearing a few words or verses of the Buddha Dhamma. So this show’s me that finer details aren’t always necessary to attain magga phala.

      What we have discussed in this thread, it’s something that I might revisit it in the future. But for now, I’ll leave it as it is and will continue to focus on learning and practicing the basics of the Buddha Dhamma so that I can continue to build an unbreakable foundation in regards to what I have understood about the Buddha Dhamma. Thanks again Lal,

      May all attain the supreme bliss of nibbana.

Viewing 3 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.