Utuja kaya of Gandhabba

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    • #35116
      DanielSt
      Participant

      Dear Lal and friends,
      I have another question about the Gandhabba. It is about the “nervous system of the Gandhabba”, which should be nothing else than utuja kaya of Gandhabba.

      I just read again your article on Nibbatti Lakkhana, there you wrote:
      “▪The utuja kāya of the gandhabba is the one that is spread over the whole physical body gives it a “life.” It is a fine grid that overlaps our nervous system, and that is how we feel body sensations.”

      You also wrote in the article:

      Gandhabba Sensing the World – With and Without a Physical Body

      In #15:
      “Thus, there are two nervous systems in the body: one is the physical nervous system known to modern science. The other is the subtle nervous system (ray system) of the gandhabba.

      When they go “out-of-sync,” our physical bodies start aching. Even in a perfectly healthy human, it is not possible to maintain a given posture for too long.
      Kamma vipāka can shift the nervous system (ray system) of the gandhabba away from that of the physical body. Then body muscles need to move to the new equilibrium position, causing us discomfort or even pain. ”

      I am trying to understand this a bit better.
      The bodily sensations arise due to the brain sending the signals to the hadaya vatthu. The pains in our body create a flow of neural current to the brain for that. So, we don’t feel bodily sensations if the brain is damaged, as in the case of people who have damage of the neural pathways in the back, who won’t feel anything anymore.

      So, the pains and bodily blockages can depend on the position of utuja kaya, which will lead to flows inside the physical body and lead to sensations in hadaya vatthu?

      Or, what is meant by “feeling body sensations with utuja kaya”?

      When Gandhabba is not embodied, it should also feel bodily sensations due to the impingement of kaya rupa from within, i.e. from utuka kaya, right?
      But when embodied, the kaya dasaka is connected to the flow of the information from the brain instead (as with the other senses like seeing, hearing,etc)

      There are also cases of people, who have parts of their body removed, but still feel body sensations in that area (“phantom hand”). Are these sensations generated from the utuja kaya, which is still there?
      Which would mean that they could feel bodily sensations from within Gandhabba more clearly.

      I hope, the questions are understandable.

      Daniel

    • #35121
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “When Gandhabba is not embodied, it should also feel bodily sensations due to the impingement of kaya rupa from within, i.e. from utuja kaya, right?”

      – No. When the gandhabba is out of the body, there will be no bodily sensations, because the body would be like a piece of wood.

      “There are also cases of people, who have parts of their body removed, but still feel body sensations in that area (“phantom hand”). Are these sensations generated from the utuja kaya, which is still there?”

      – Yes.
      – You may have read V. S. Ramachandran’s popular book, “Phantoms in the Brain” (1998). If not, that would be a good read.
      – Also read the post, “Vision (Cakkhu Viññāṇa) is Not Just Seeing” I mention that book there.

    • #35122
      DanielSt
      Participant

      If the Gandhabba is not embodied, there are no “bodily” sensations? I mean, there are no sensations generated through utuja kaya and impinging on “kaya pasada rupa”?

      Or, alternatively, if one would consider Deva as similar to Gandhabba, they also feel “bodily” sensations through their utuja kaya, right?

      With “bodily sensation”, I mean it more generally just as impingement through “kaya pasada rupa”/”kaya dasaka” (a vipaka that is a sukha/dukha vedana for example – a Gandhabba should still have these?)

    • #35123
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “If the Gandhabba is not embodied, there are no “bodily” sensations? I mean, there are no sensations generated through utuja kaya and impinging on “kaya pasada rupa”?”

      – How can there be “bodily sensations” if the physical body is not active??

    • #35124
      DanielSt
      Participant

      Isn’t it possible for vipaka to affect utuja kaya, which in turn can lead to sukha/dukha vedana arising?

      A Deva should also feel sukha/dukha vedana through their utuja kaya, I imagine.

      PS. Maybe the confusion is that utuja kaya and physical body is consideres the same?
      So, assuming the cade where a Gandhabba comes out of a dead body and accumulates some matter through odors and scents, at that time this should be a physical body or utuja kaya. These should then lead to possible dukha or sukha vedana, right?

      • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by DanielSt.
    • #35126
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “Isn’t it possible for vipaka to affect utuja kaya, which in turn can lead to sukha/dukha vedana arising?”

      – No. That is why hell-beings have “solid bodies” that can feel the bodily dukkha vedana.
      – A Deva feels sukha/dukha vedana because they have “solid-enough” bodies, even though less dense than ours. They also belong to kama loka. P.S. Just to clarify: Even though the gandhabba is human and belongs to the kama loka, it does not have a nose, tongue, and a physical body for touch. “Gandha + abba” does not happen through a nose. It is a different mechanism. Devas have all five physical senses.
      – Anyway, you need to pause and think before asking more questions.

      • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by Lal.
    • #35128
      DanielSt
      Participant

      In the kammaja kaya, the pasada rupa for taste,touch,smell, seeing, hearing are created. These are in the Gandhabba as I understand.
      Shouldn’t it be possible for a rupa, that is part of utuja kaya, to “connect” to the “kaya dasaka”?

      Yes, Gandhabba doesn’t have nose, tongue and body but it has the nose-base, tongue-base and body-base. So, in my view, it can still “smell” aromas, where a fruit-rupa is making contact directly with ghāna-dasaka?

      Another (a bit related question):
      Samphassa-ja-vedana create rupa that are radiating out from the cittaja kaya, that would be my understanding. This creation is also an “entangling” process.
      Niramisa vedana come from the “deentanglement” of mental energies.
      So these are processes below the rupa stage.
      Would you agree with this?

      But anyway, if some Gandhabba can accumulate rice-corns, which are very gross compared to suddhataka, then that should make it possible to create rupa-sensation through the body-base of the kammaja kaya, or at least I don’t understand why a Gandhabba would never feel any dukha/sukha vedana at all when not in a “gross physical body” that starts developing in the womb.

      • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by DanielSt.
      • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by DanielSt.
    • #35138
      TripleGemStudent
      Participant

      I believe some confusion might have arisen due to what was discussed below, although I’m not 100% sure.

      “There are also cases of people, who have parts of their body removed, but still feel body sensations in that area (“phantom hand”). Are these sensations generated from the utuja kaya, which is still there?”

      – Yes.

      “Isn’t it possible for vipaka to affect utuja kaya, which in turn can lead to sukha/dukha vedana arising?”

      – No. That is why hell-beings have “solid bodies” that can feel the bodily dukkha vedana.

      While we’re on this topic, I have 2 questions of my own right now.

      #1. Does preta’s have a āhāraja kāya or karaja kāya? I believe so, but not 100% sure.

      #2. To me, it seems like there’s a connection between pasada rupa’s and utuja kaya. It seems like if there’s no utuja kaya, there would be no pasada rupa’s, they go hand in hand. Would this be fair to say?

      with Metta,

    • #35139
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “#1. Does preta’s have a āhāraja kāya or karaja kāya?”

      – There are different kinds of pretas. Some are said to have an āhāraja kāya. But they have less-dense bodies like Devas.

      “#2. To me, it seems like there’s a connection between pasada rupa’s and utuja kaya.”
      – The time sequence is as follows. The kammaja kaya (with hadaya vatthu and pasada rupa) arise first at the patisandhi moment. It is created solely by kammic energy. That kammaja kaya starts generating citta and thus the cittaja kaya arises immediately afterward. Utuja rupa are produced by both the kammaja kaya and cittaja kaya and thus that comes next. That is the gandhabba with those three kāya.
      – When that gandhabba gets into a womb, it starts making the āhāraja kāya or karaja kāya.

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