March 4, 2021 at 1:51 am #33773
Suwapath wewa all,
This is what I can understand about the difference between Sakkaya and Sakkaya ditthi.
I understand Sakkaya as Pancupadanakkhandha. Is it appropriate to take Sakkaya as a perception (sanna) and Sakkaya Ditthi as a view (ditthi)? A Sotapanna can be considered as gotten rid of sakkaya ditthi (wrong view), but not Sakkaya (attached to kaya). Once one attains Sotapanna and Samma Ditthi, they then have the ability or better ability (samma ditthi) to Sakkaya nirodha or to put a stop to Sakkaya or pancupadanakkhanda. If I remember correctly or from what I can understand, a satta can also be considered as Sakkaya. Any living being that’s not an Arahant or Buddha is considered a satta or a living being with avija.
Sakkaya nirodha is also the noble 8 fold path. When one is on the noble 8 fold path, it helps one to weaken/put a stop to Sakkaya (attached to kaya). While one is on the noble eight fold path, one is gaining vija and working towards samma nana and when one attains Arahant and all the avija is gone. Then Sakkaya nirodha is completed, pancupadanakkhanda is stop, the perception (sanna) of a “self” is stop and one is no longer a satta.
Does this make sense? Can anyone point out any inconsistencies or inaccuracies?
My important question is “Is it appropriate to take Sakkaya as a perception (sanna) and Sakkaya Ditthi as a view (ditthi)?”
Sakkaya ditthi can be considered as ditthi vipallasa, while Sakkaya can be considered as sanna vipallasa?
March 4, 2021 at 3:39 am #33774
Just thought of;
We been satta’s since no discernable beginning which means we been doing Sakkaya Samudaya. Avija and the 4 other causes in Sakkaya Samudaya causing the 5 effects, would give rise to a satta. As long as a satta has avija, the perception of a “self” will always be there since this perception of a “self” can be equated to avija. It seems like Sakkaya samudaya is what causes/give rise/ maintains Sakkaya ditthi while Sakkaya ditthi in turns fuels/feeds Sakkaya samudaya, feeding each other.
March 4, 2021 at 7:19 am #33780
“I understand Sakkaya as Pancupadanakkhandha.”
– That is correct.
“Is it appropriate to take Sakkaya as a perception (sanna) and Sakkaya Ditthi as a view (ditthi)?”
– No. That is not correct.
I think it is a good idea to understand what is meant by pancakkhandha first.
– To do that, it is better to start with rupakkhandha.
Rupakkhandha is defined to be of 11 types: “past, present, future, internal (one’s own), external, close-by, far away, good, bad, fine (sukuma), granular (olarika).”
– We can focus on the five categories bolded.
So, rupakkhandha (collection of all rupa experienced by any given person) includes all rupa that one has experienced in the past (including past lives), one’s experienced at the present time, and one’s images about rupa to be experienced in the future.
– In the other important categories in bold, includes one’s own rupa and those external.
– Also, rupa includes all types: rupa rupa (visuals), sadda rupa (sounds), rasa rupa (tastes), etc.
So, as you can see, one person’s rupakkhandha is different from another. It is all about what one has experienced, experiencing, and expect to experience.
The other four aggregates are the same way.
Thus, it would be clear that pancakkhadha is one’s own world.
From all that one would be “attached to” only a tiny fraction. That is pancupadanakkhandha.
– “Sakkāya” comes from “sath” + “kāya”, where “sath” means “good” and “kāya” is a “collection.”
– P.S. Here “kāya” is the same as those parts of the five aggregates (pancakkhandha) that one perceives to be “good/enjoyable/beneficial..”
– Thus, “sakkāya ditthi” is to VIEW pancupadanakkhandha as good, and “should be mine”/”beneficial to be taken as mine”.
That is just a ditthi (view). That wrong ditthi goes away at the Sotapanna stage. A Sotapanna would see that attachment to anything in this world (“avijja paccaya sankhara”) will ALWAYS end up with “jati paccaya jara, marana, etc),i.e., to more births and more suffering.
– But the perception (sanna) of a “me” will still be there in a Sotapanna. That wrong perception is very hard to get rid of. It reduced gradually at the higher stage of magga phala and goes away completely only at the Arahant stage.
– In other words, a Sotapanna removes ditthi vipallasa. But it is only at the Arahant stage that sanna (and citta) vipallasa removed.
– There are more details. But that is a CRITICAL summary to be understood.
- This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by Lal.
March 4, 2021 at 1:23 pm #33783
As always Lal, thank you for your time and teachings, much merits to you. May any merits we obtain from this meritorious act be shared/transferred/offered to all the Satta’s and may the power of these merits help all of us Satta’s attain the supreme Bliss of Nibbana. Saddhu saddhu saddhu
When you said:
” Thus, “sakkāya ditthi” is to VIEW pancupadanakkhandha as good, and “should be mine”/”beneficial to be taken as mine”.”
– For the “should be mine”/”beneficial to be taken as mine”. Can I understand that as the four wrong “views” for each of the 5 aggregates? “I am my; is me; me is in; I am in” or the 20 types of Sakkaya ditthi?
March 4, 2021 at 2:58 pm #33785
Yes. All 20 ways are incorrect views.
March 4, 2021 at 5:07 pm #33786
I just thought of a “possible” and very troubling example of Sakkaya Ditthi, please share feedback and opinion.
#1. Before I started learning the Puredhamma, I was taught breathing meditation, to focus on the breath and feel it inside my body etc . . . Thinking back on this, I feel like I was taking (kaya) the 5 aggregates to be (sath) important. Thinking that by focusing on my breath will take me to Nibbana or believing the 5 aggregates is beneficial for me to attain Nibbana. If one places any emphasize or delightfully promotes any method that uses the 5 aggregates and truly believe that it will take one to Nibbana, isn’t this an example of Sakkaya Ditthi?
I understand that there are some exceptions to this. To make things simple, let’s say someone has the gati to practice breath meditation. One day, they have understood what Sakkaya ditthi is. If one has understood what sakkaya ditthi is, I believe that they would not place anymore importance on breathing meditation. They might still do it out of habit or to get into mundane jhana’s. But deep down inside, they would know that focusing on any of the 5 aggregates is Sakkaya ditthi or anatta (no essence) and they wouldn’t teach or promote such a method or at least encourage it.
Today it’s very widely taught and encourage for people to do breathing meditation (most current Buddhist :( , focus on objects, focusing on your feelings, etc . . . For people who’s teaching or learning these methods and truly believes that these methods will take one to Nibbana or a permanent happiness or whatever is that they wish for. Isn’t this one of the many examples of Sakkaya Ditthi?
Since I mentioned anatta (no essence), which is commonly translated as no-self, rather one believes anatta as no-self or not. Instead of “no-self”, it seems like it’s better to view it as “there’s nothing worth to call a self or nothing can be considered as a self” I know Lal wrote something exactly or similar as this in his posts, but now these are my own words / way of thinking.
#2. Why “there’s nothing worth to call a self or nothing can be considered as a self”? Because of anatta (no essence). From my experience so far, it seems like the more one understands what Sakkaya ditthi is, the more one understands what anatta (no essence) means.
#1. Is the example I given a Sakkaya ditthi?
#2. Am I on the right path of understanding the connection between Sakkaya ditthi and Anatta? I know there’s more learning/details to be done, but this is what I can realize for now.
March 5, 2021 at 12:33 am #33787
#2. Am I on the right path of understanding the connection between Sakkaya ditthi and Anatta? I know there’s more learning/details to be done, but this is what I can realize for now.
If you haven’t read it, here is a recent post that addressed sakkaya ditthi and anatta.
About breath meditation, I used to do quite a bit of it, just like you. Some teachers of breath meditation (which they take as anapanasati) do say that it can take one to liberation since it’s a means to realize anatta (taken as “no self”). I haven’t heard of one who connects breath meditation to sakkaya ditthi.
The connection to anatta goes something like this: there comes a stage when one realizes that breathing is just breathing. There is no “I” who breathes; the “I” is an illusion, a mental concoction. Seeing through this is seeing anatta.
March 5, 2021 at 1:11 am #33788
Thank you, Lang!
– Yes. The post that you quoted explains the difference between sakkaya ditthi and anatta.
It is one of three related posts on the subject:
“Sakkāya Diṭṭhi and Paṭicca Samuppāda”
It is a good idea to read all three posts.
Sakkāya Diṭṭhi arises in those who do not understand the Paṭicca Samuppāda process.
– I had discussed Paṭicca Samuppāda in detail. But in the new series, I discuss the Paṭicca Samuppāda process from another angle:
“Paṭicca Samuppāda – Essential Concepts“
March 5, 2021 at 7:11 am #33790
Thank you Lang and Lal for taking the time to reply to my post and the sharing of Dhamma, much merits to the both of you. Saddhu saddhu saddhu
#1. *** Just wondering, have I understood properly what is being taught in the video below in regards to the difference between Sakkaya and Sakkaya ditthi? ***
From what I understand right now and believe to make the most sense, is that Sakkaya and Sakkaya ditthi are understood (1) differently (not exactly the same thing) but are connected. Why I say this is because if one watches the above video from the beginning to about the 38:00 mark, Waharaka Thero spent most of the video teaching about the different wrong views of a “self” (I, Me).
The definition given to Sakkaya ditthi in the sutta’s and what I understand is that Sakkaya Ditthi is having the four wrong views about the 5 aggregates or the wrong views about a “self” (I, me).
While Sakkaya is pancupadanakkhandha, a satta (attached), or taking Kaya as Sath . (37:53 – 39:45 of the video.)
(1) Why I believe Sakkaya and Sakkaya ditthi are to be understood in two different ways. 39:00 – 39:16 of the video.
Lal said: “Sakkaya Ditthi arises in those who do not understand the Paticca Samuppada process”
#2. If I have understood correctly or what I contemplated is correct, Sakkaya is the origin of Sakkaya Ditthi.
I believe the understanding of Paticca Samuppada is one of the requirements to remove Sakkaya ditthi. But even with Sakkaya Ditthi removed one would still Sakkaya until one has removed all Avija. If I understood correctly, the “perception” of “I, me” or mana is deeply embedded in our pancakkhandha, its been with us since no discernable beginning. As long as the pancakkhandha is there for the satta, the “perception” of “I, me” or mana will be there.
“I haven’t heard of one who connects breath meditation to sakkaya ditthi”.
I come to realize that connecting breath meditation to Sakkaya ditthi was one of the many wrong understandings that I came to while contemplating on Dhamma. I apologize for wasting the person’s time for reading an inappropriate example.
March 5, 2021 at 7:48 am #33792
I have explained this in many ways. If others can provide useful inputs, they are welcome to do so.
March 5, 2021 at 9:32 am #33793
what I said about breath meditation was just a side comment. We here know how pervasive it is that breath meditation is wrongly interpreted as anapanasati, and anatta as no self.
For the topic at hand, we know that:
Sakkaya = pancupadanakkhandha
sakkāya ditthi = wrong views that sakkaya is worthwhile to be taken as me, mine, the 20 ways you mentioned.
… and also
pancupadanakkhandha is a subset of pancakkhandha
“Sakkaya is the origin of Sakkaya Ditthi.”
— I tend to think that Sakkaya Ditthi is “in” pancupadanakkhandha (probably in the sankharakkhanda).
“…But even with Sakkaya Ditthi removed one would still Sakkaya until one has removed all Avija.”
— This is true. Sakkaya Ditthi is removed at the sotapanna stage. At this stage, there is still pancupadanakkhandha, but it has reduced by a “huge” amount.
“As long as the pancakkhandha is there for the satta, the “perception” of “I, me” or mana will be there.”
— I’d say that “As long as pancupadanakkhandha is there …”
For an arahant, there is still pancakkhandha (until parinibbana), but no perception of “I, me” or mana.
March 5, 2021 at 6:28 pm #33799
“I have explained this in many ways.”
Indeed you have and the many other Dhamma concepts on this website. Because of this website, I’m sure many Satta’s has benefitted from it, including myself. Any merits obtained from your meritorious act of sharing the Buddha Dhamma, may we rejoice in the merits and share/transfer/offer the merits to all the Satta’s. May the power of the merits help us all attain the supreme Bliss of Nibbana. Thank you
If you can think of or see any problems or inconsistencies with understanding/seeing Sakkaya ditthi and Sakkaya as two different understandings, but are connected. Please for the compassion of me, point it out.
Thank you so much for your participation and feedback, it’s very beneficial for me. Thanks to your post, I can see and realize some of my potential misunderstandings that I may have. May we rejoice in the merits earned from your meritorious act, may we offer/share/transfer these merits with all the Satta’s and by the power of these merits help us all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana. Saddhu saddhu saddhu
“pancupadanakkhandha is a subset of pancakkhandha”
– Geez . . . never thought of it that way . . . Tremendous help.
“I tend to think that Sakkaya Ditthi is “in” pancupadanakkhandha”
– Another way we can look at this as well is that Sakkaya ditthi comes as package with all Satta’s.
“I’d say that “As long as pancupadanakkhandha is there …”
For an arahant, there is still pancakkhandha (until parinibbana), but no perception of “I, me” or mana.”
– That makes sense, thank you for sharing that.
I thought it was the pancakkhandha because this was subtitled “Once the five aggregates disintegrate, the perception of the “I” disappears from there. 33:33- 34:44 of the video.
– But after re-watching that part of the video, and thinking about it, I think I might not have understood that part correctly.
“(probably in the sankharakkhanda).”
– I actually think it’s in the Vinnanakkhandha. 31:35 – 33:35 of the video, let me know what you think.
March 5, 2021 at 7:26 pm #33803
I have mentioned previously that some parts of the English translations of Waharaka Thero’s discourses are NOT correct.
– Please don’t post any more of these “translated” videos.
– Translations are as good as the understanding of the translator.
– I am sure that most parts are OK, but I don’t have time to make corrections for incorrect/incomplete translations.
It is not correct to say, “Once the five aggregates disintegrate, the perception of the “I” disappears from there.” as quoted by the TripleGemStudent above.
– The five aggregates DO NOT disintegrate. I am not sure what the translator meant by that statement.
– Only the craving for the five aggregates is stopped totally at the Arahant stage., i.e., there is no pancupadanakkhandha for an Arahant.
– As I explained in my detailed response above, the “past component” of the five aggregates cannot change. They have become namagotta or memories. They never change.
TripleGemStudent: If you go through the two subsections that I provided links to, you should be able to clarify these issues.
– If you don’t understand any given bullet # in a given post, please quote that and ask a question. It is pointless to describe the same things again and again.
P.S. The comments by Lang are correct.
- This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Lal.
March 5, 2021 at 8:42 pm #33812
Ok Lal, thank you.
March 6, 2021 at 6:56 am #33813
July 1, 2021 at 5:49 pm #34877
I heard a talk from Ven. Dhammavudhho (a monk from Malaysia) on Sottapanna. He says that one may
enter the stream but could take some time to attain the fruit.
He also says that one just needs to listen to dhamma talks to attain the sottapanna stage (meditation and jhana are not a requirement for sottapanna attainment)
So if one regularly listens to dhamma talks and does his or her best to follow the teachings, is it a correct understanding that one can enter the stream at some stage and progress during the time of death and attain the fruit and become a sottapanna.
There are stories of people becoming sottapanna or even reach the highest attainment of arhant while undergoing the process of death.
There is the story of queen Samavati and her servants who attained stages between Sottapana up to arhanthood by being mindful at the time of death and the story of Sarakhani who attained the
streamentry at the moment of death by being receptive to the teachings of the Buddha.
July 2, 2021 at 12:17 am #34884
You’ll find some relevant information about this in this forum thread, where we also discussed the talk by Bhante Dhammavuddho:
There, with some more references, Lal explained that the phala citta followed right after the magga citta; thus one becomes a sotapanna in one moment (citta vithi).
When one becomes a sotapanna anugami, at the Gotrabu stage, one is on the path to become a sotapanna, but that can take some time.
Also, the following post is about the four conditions for the sotapanna stage:
… and yes, listening to Dhamma talks is one of them.
July 3, 2021 at 11:06 am #34910
Thankyou Lang, for the information. I listen to many of the monks in the forest tradition and some others too.
Most of the name just pop as I am watching, but I was wondering if you have some names you can suggest.
I prefer to listen, it is hard for me to read extensively. Thanks again.
July 3, 2021 at 9:38 pm #34915
I was listening to this series of Dhamma talks, since I found them to be consistent to what we’re learning here. Hope you find them helpful.
July 4, 2021 at 11:15 am #34916
Thank you. It was excellent. I listened to the first talk and others popped up and I will be listening everyday. But it does not inform who the speaker is. Also I will be signing up to the subscription and may get more information of the speaker in the process.
Thank you again and wish you all the best on your spiritual journey.
I presume that Lang is your name, and cubibobi is your sign on ID.
July 5, 2021 at 9:52 pm #34924
I was listening to the second talk today (season 1 episode 2). He uses a lot of pali terms, but
I can understand most of it, and I plan to listen to the same talk couple of times more.
But at one point towards the end (around 45 minutes) he mentions the characteristics of 1 Jhana
Savittaka, Savicara, Vivekjana and Pritisukha and he says savittaka corresponds to the reciting of the karmastthanas.
I could kind of understand the rest of it but do you know what is savittaka and karmastthanas mean?
I tried to scan at the topics on the main page, but thought it would be easier to just ask you.
- This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by raj.
July 6, 2021 at 12:08 am #34926
I happened to be reading about vitakka/vicara and savitakka/savicara just recently, so let me just direct you to it:
About the series, I listened to them some time back, so I’ll have to relisten; it’s also about time for a review for me. I did remember that they made quite an impression on me, so they are the first ones I think about when someone asks about Dhamma talks.
Lal would know what karmastthanas means, but I am guessing that it is Kammathana in Pali, meaning object of meditation, if I’m not mistaken.
I am Vietnamese, and I’m striving to learn Pali like everyone on this site. It is indeed a joy in studying this website: learning Buddha Dhamma according to the Tipitaka, and having someone like Lal explaining the Pali terms to us.
One more addition regarding Dhamma talks: search for Dharmayai Obai from YouTube. Someone here once introduced that, and I remember listening to a few in English; they are also consistent to the Dhamma we are learning here.
July 6, 2021 at 7:27 am #34937
Lang wrote: “Lal would know what karmasthanas means, but I am guessing that it is Kammathana in Pali, meaning object of meditation, if I’m not mistaken.”
Yes. “karmasthana” is the Sinhala word for Kammathana.
July 8, 2021 at 12:09 pm #34964
Thanks for informing me about the Dharmayai Obai talks. I have started listening to it.
The dhamma talks you first suggested are great but he uses too many pali words as the series progresses and it is hard to understand.
I am impressed on your knowledge of Tripitika terminology in spite of your Vietnamese background. How long have you been learning Pali (or have you picked up all the terms by studying the pure dhamma site?) and can you suggest a online course or a book which teaches tripitika words?
I got a book (learn pali) a couple of years back, but they only teach mundane words so I lost my interest.
July 8, 2021 at 9:49 pm #34965
Thanks to Lalji, the Pali Glossary has all the terminologies I need to learn for the time being or may be it has everything I need to know in this lifetime!
It is an amazing tool and a gift to all of us who are not familiar with tripitika terminologies!
July 8, 2021 at 11:49 pm #34966
I picked up most of the Pali terms from this site. For me, learning Pali terms here is easier to remember for at least 2 reasons:
- Lal explains the terms in context.
- Lal breaks down the Pali words into parts, making the meanings clear.
About book learning, I’m using “Learn Pali the Easy Way” (2 volumes) by Kurt Schmidt, but that is going very slowly. These books teach Pali in the context of Buddha Dhamma.
July 9, 2021 at 6:37 am #34967
July 9, 2021 at 12:05 pm #34969
I cant find words to express my gratitude to Lalji and all the enthusiastic participants of this forum.
I used to go to a meditation camp all the time to find friends and like minded people and
now I have found a bigger and a more well informed group. Everyday I am learning something new and getting a better understanding of the wonderful teachings of the Buddha.
July 9, 2021 at 2:42 pm #34970
July 9, 2021 at 8:59 pm #34971
Thanks for the info. These talks are between 2 to 3 hours in duration. Unfortunately I am used to dhamma talks which are around an hour in duration.
I listened to part of one of the talks which was interesting, and have not listened to the complete talk yet. It is going to take some time getting used to
listening to long talks. I think it would be possible to listen to such talks if one is attending a retreat and in a favorable environment.
Are you able to listen to the entire talk in one sitting?
July 10, 2021 at 2:09 am #34972
If time permits I listen to whole desana in one sitting but normally I listen in parts spread over few days.
July 10, 2021 at 11:48 am #34973
For starters, I will do it in three sittings and see how it goes. Can you suggest a talk?
There are so many, rather than just picking one, I thought it would be better to ask you.
I was thinking of listening to (the power of merits) or (what are you waiting for).
The last one I listened to, I did not go back to it and continue, and now I will have to start fresh.
Thanks and wish you all the best on your spiritual journey.
- This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by raj.
July 11, 2021 at 3:03 am #34975
Yes, those 2 are good ones.
I listen to all of the sermons, some of the more than once. All of them are good. But for starting I can suggest these: Drop the telescope get the microscope, Retaliation, Man’s pursuit of happiness, The four noble truths, Forgive and forget, Altruism, Is your mind a prostitute. And any sermons that have meditation in the title are also great.
What I like about these sermons is the Thero gives lots of examples from day to day life that I can easily relate to.
The old sermons are on Dharmayai Obai channel, link to the playlist
Hope this helps. Wish you all the best!
July 11, 2021 at 6:28 pm #34978
Two other sources for listening to the dhamma besides what’s already mentioned are:
Lal recommended this Thero’s desena’s on this website if one hasn’t already seen / come across. It’s unfortunate that there’s not many desena’s by this Thero in English
This other source, one really has to use their discernment. One might be able to find some teachings that might be helpful to them on the path.
Since Dharmayai Obai is mentioned, in case anyone is interested, Dharmayai Obai might be looking for transcribers for the sermons. They have a project going on where the transcribed sermons are shared with people who are deaf (not able to listen to the dhamma). I’m actually currently in the process of transcribing “Drop the telescope get the microscope” sermon. If anyone is interested in possibly helping Amandassana Thero transcribing his sermons, you can e-mail me at [email protected]
May we all living beings attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
July 12, 2021 at 12:39 am #34989
Thanks to Aniduan for the tips, and to TripleGemStudent for the new links.
I especially like the link with the short talks. I like to end my day with a
short dhammatalk and a short meditation session.
July 23, 2021 at 6:57 pm #35181
There was a desana in which Ven. Amandassana Thero talks about aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati. I am not sure if the entire desana was on this topic or part of it. But I wanted to listen to it again but can’t recall which one it was. Since you are transcribing the desanas I wanted to check with you if you can recall which desana it was. Thank you.
July 24, 2021 at 11:27 pm #35187
I didn’t listen to all of Ven. Amadassana Thero sermons, I’m not sure myself either. I asked someone and if I receive some answer or find out myself, I’ll let you know.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.