[Lal]

C.Saket said: “wonder why beings in the realms 28-31 are called “arupavacara” brahma ? and why these realms are called “arupa” loka ? (since arupavacara brahmas have hadaya vatthu which is technically a rupa)”.

Arupavacara was a word introduced by ancient yogis and had been in usage when the Buddha was born. Rupa above the suddhshtaka stage start at bhuta stage, where it is just a suddhashtaka. The next more condensed state is “maha bhuta” with large aggregates of suddhashtaka, and then even more condensed statges of “dhathu”. See:
The Origin of Matter – Suddhāshtaka

Higher the one’s realm is finer rupas one can see. We can see only highly condensed “dhatu”. Devas have much finer bodies and can see finer “dhatu”. Rupavacara brahmas can see “maha bhuta”. A given being can see one’s own level and lower levels.

However, arupavacra brahmas cannot see rupa above the suddhashtaka stage because they do not have cakkhu (or sota) pasada rupa. They have only a hadaya vatthu and thus can only access “dhamma below the suddhashtaka stage” via “mananca paticca dhammeca uppadati mano vinnanam”.
Therefore, there are no rupa above the suddhashtaka stage in arupavacara realms, AND the only rupa at the suddhashtaka stage are only the hadaya vatthus of those brahmas. Thus, when ancient yogis attained arupavacara jhanas, they did not see any rupa there, So, those yogis gave the name “arupavacara” to those realms.
Therefore, any rupa above the suddhashtaka cannot be seen by an arupavacara brahma, because they don’t have cakkhu indriya. A suddhashtaka cannot be seen by rupavacara brahmas, because they can see only “maha buta” or large aggregates of suddhashtaka. Only a Buddha can see a suddhashtaka.

Sybe07 said: “Lal, when the mind becomes free of asava’s does it become free of seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting etc? Would that really be the case then an arahant, who’s asava’s have ended, cannot live this life anymore. Attaining Nibbana would make live impossible if this would mean that mind would end too….”

When a living being is in a given bhava in the kama loka (human, animal, deva, peta, etc), its sense faculties experience likes/dislikes based on that bhava, and these are called “kama guna”. Some kama guna can be matching, but others are different from bhava to bhava. Humans and dogs enjoy some similar foods, but dogs also eat feces. A human (with some exceptions based on kamma vipaka), taste saltiness of salt and sweetness of sugar. That holds for even an Arahant until the Arahant attains Parinibbana, i.e., passes away, see:
Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda

There are two types of Nibbana: saupadisesa Nibbana and anupadisesa Nibbana:
See “Nirödha and Vaya – Two Different Concepts”.

All sense faculties keep functioning after one attains the Arahant stage; kama guna do not change since an Arahant is still in human bhava. An Arahant only loses any craving for them. Any thought generation stops at anupadisesa Nibbana.

We can look at this from another angle to make this clear.
A living being moves to higher realms by seeing the adinava (unfruitfulness/dangers) in sense pleasures at lower realms.

In the realms of kama loka, beings enjoy sense pleasures through all five physical senses.

In the rupavacara brahma loka, smell, taste, and touch are not there. One gets born in such realms when one develops rupavacara jhana and regularly cultivates them in the human realm; one has lost craving for sense pleasures through the tongue, nose, and the body (but anusaya remains, so those cravings can come back in future lives). In rupavacara brahma realms one enjoys only seeing and hearing.

Even those sense pleasures experienced with seeing and hearing are of not value to those who have cultivated arupavacara jhana; But they have not given up the desire to live (bhava raga). That cannot be removed without comprehending the real nature of all 31 realms: anicca, dukkha, anatta.

Only a Buddha can figure out how to remove Bhava raga. So, a Buddha finds the way to be free from all 31 realms.

[Lal]

Johnny Lim said, “Which implies that on the attainment of 2nd jhana, 4th jhana, and Nirodha Samāpatti, vaci sankhara, kaya sankhara, and citta (mano) sankhara stops, respectively. Emergence from Nirodha Samāpatti is just the reverse order..”

That statement should read, “Which implies that on the attainment of 2nd jhana samapatti, 4th jhana samapatti, and Nirodha Samāpatti, vaci sankhara, kaya sankhara, and citta (mano) sankhara stops, respectively. Emergence from Nirodha Samāpatti is just the reverse order.

It is important to understand the difference between jhana and samapatti. Vaci sankhara are not stopped in the second jhana, but is stopped in the second jhana samapatti. Similarly, kaya sankhara are stopped only in the fourth jhana samapatti; that also means breathing is also stopped in the fourth jhana samapatti.
All thoughts cease to exist in nirodha samapatti, i.e., no mano sankhara. The only difference between one in nirodha samapatti and a dead body is that dead body is decaying and body temperature drops. When one is in nirodha samapatti, body temperature drops some but remains at that level; life is maintained by kammic energy.

When in a jhana, jhana citta vithi do not run continuously; there are citta vithi corresponding to pancadvara running in between jhana citta vithi. That is why one in a jhana can hear, see, etc.So, one does generate all three types of sankhara when one is in a jhana.

But when one is in a jhana samapatti, monodvara jhana javana citta run continuously. Therefore, one does not hear, see, etc while in any jhana samapatti, as well as in nirodha samapatti.

The basic ideas and a bit about jhana samapatti are discussed in the post: “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“.

In addition, only vaci sankhara are stopped in the second jhana samapatti. Only vaci and kaya sankhara are stopped in the fourth jhana samapatti. All three are stopped in the nirodha samapatti.

[Lal]

Dear Tobias,
1. Dhamma are rupa too:
What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!

2. Also, a living being is ALWAYS associated with a a rupa condensed above the dhamma stage. Even an arupavacara brahma has a hadaya vatthu, which is a suddhashtaka.

So, a given “lifestream” is always associated with a rupa at or above the suddhashtaka stage, in addition to dhamma.

[Lal]

Here is another way to look at it.
We remember that there are only four paramatta dhamma: Nibbana, rupa, citta, and cetasika. The latter three entities belong to “this world” and Nibbana means dissociation from “this world”.
The easy answer is: Nibbana is detaching from this world. So, all three entities of citta, cetasika, and rupa cease to exist. There is no mind without citta and cetasika. So, when the mind becomes free of asavas, the mind itself cease to exist.

Another way to look at it: The Buddha said that a living being (satva or satta) is the collection of five aggregates: rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana. Furthermore, ALL FIVE must be there together, i.e., mental components must be accompanied by rupa. There are several suttas that state “vinnana cannot exist without rupa”. Since I am on travel, I am unable to find those suttas.
In terms of paramatta dhamma, citta and cetasika are represented by vedana,sanna, sankhara, vinnana. Therefore, at (Pari)Nibbana, mind (thoughts with citta and cetasika) also cease to exist, when they become detached from rupa.

Nibbana is an asankata dhamma. Everything in this world is a sankata. Nibbana element does not exist in this world.

[Lal]

Thanks, Tobias, for sharing your experience with everyone.

Just a bit of background on Mr. Tobias Große from Heilbad Heiligenstadt, Germany. Of course, I received his permission to reveal his identity.

We have been in contact for over a year. His wife and children are also fully engaged and it is heartwarming to see how much they have advanced. He recently started the German puredhamma.net website: https://puredhamma/de.

He had mentioned to me a bit about his experience a couple of times, but it seems that his desire for solitude is getting stronger.

I have had a similar experience too, but mine has been more gradual. Even though my children are not engaged in Dhamma activities, they are employed and they have been living away from us for several years (college and then employment). My wife has been active (not to the same level as me, since she is still working), and we have been able to make a reasonably good transition to where we are today.

So, Tobias, I am glad that your whole family is engaged. Otherwise, it could be more difficult. But since each individual is different, it is good to keep an eye on how each person is responding to your changes.

There are accounts in the Tipitaka that have described how certain individuals responded upon attaining various levels of magga phala. Some became bhikkhus, but there were many who remained as “householders” and were able to manage “both sides”. I am doing the latter.

In my case, I try to accommodate especially my two children (they are adults now), and try not to let them miss anything that they expect from a father, growing up in the United States. Luckily, they don’t have many demands that could really disturb my “state of mind”. We try to get together whenever possible. My wife and I sold our house and live in an apartment, even though we may buy a small house next year.

I was active in many “worldly things” even before retirement. For example, I had been trading stocks and options for a long time. After retirement, I got into futures trading for a brief time, at which time I also started reading on many subjects. But my growing interest in Buddha Dhamma gradually diminished all those activities over a year or two. When I comprehended Tilakkhana in late 2013/early 2014, I gave up all those, but I kept some trading accounts to manage what I had just with stocks.

By 2016 I had lost desire to “own material things”. It became a struggle to even keep an eye on trading accounts, and I consolidated them and just bought some selected stocks so that I don’t need to monitor them. Nowadays, I look at those accounts couple of times a year, as apart of my obligation to my family.

Now I realize that I have gradually lost contact with many of my friends from old days. Instead now I communicate with many on this forum regularly. It was not intentional and just happened. This is a good illustration for me how people with “same gathi” are attracted to each other, and to activities that they like.

This is also why the statement, “dhammo ha ve rakkati dhammacari” or “Dhamma will guide one in the right direction” is true. I was guided away from worldly activities, and also from people who are still engaged in such activities, etc. None of this was done forcefully. They “just happened” over time. Another thing is that my children have changed too, even without them realizing, and even though they are not really “practicing Buddha Dhamma”. They rarely go to movies even though they live on their own. I notice that they have friends of similar likings. They like to go on hikes and travel rather than going to concerts, movies, etc. I am hoping that they would get more interested in Buddha Dhamma with time.

I did not mean this to get so lengthy. But I hope you can get an idea of what happened in my case. Each person is different and things will happen differently. In fact, Tobias, you seem to be moving at a faster pace than me.

It is also important to note that one could attain the Sotapanna stage without undergoing a drastic change in lifestyle, and then stay like that too. For example, Visaka attained the Sotapanna stage at an early age, and lived the life of a wealthy person. She got married and had 22 children. The Buddha said that she would have eleven more births as a human (remember that could be within even a single bhava). That means she would not attain even the Sakadagami stage during that whole time.

Mahanama was another wealthy person who attained the Sotapanna stage and remained active in his businesses. There are accounts of Anagamis also who chose not to become bhikkhus. On the other hand, there were individuals who could not remain “householders”.

Most life changes happen in the transition from the Sotapanna to Sakadagami stage. Even more drastic changes take place on the way to the Anagami stage. Because one’s mind would get rid of all attachments to the kama loka, i.e., craving/desire for food, sex, etc,). There is no point in forcibly trying to remove desire for sex, for example. That cannot be done anyway. It is only when one realizes that the “Nibbanic bliss” is better than any sense experience, that the mind rejects any such desires. So, it is best if both partners lose the desire for sex over time. Even though it cannot happen at the same time, having the understanding about the state of each other helps a lot.

By the way, “Nibbanic bliss” is not a “vedana” that can be felt. It is the state of the “cooled mind”. It can be compared to the relief one feels when a long-lasting headache finally goes away.

I am a firm believer in “dhammo ha ve rakkati dhammacari” because that has been my experience. If one follows the Path with determination, one will be guided in the right direction so that it will benefit oneself AND those who rely on oneself (family members).

[Lal]

So, it is clear that Nibbana can be attained via different ways by people with different “gathi” (types of individuals).

It seems to me that there are three key elements involved regardless:

1. One must get rid of the ten types of mica ditthi, and get to the mundane eightfold path.
2. One must hear/read about the correct version of Tilakkhana (anicca,dukkha,anatta), i.e., the real nature of this world as revealed only by a Buddha.
3. Then one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami and contemplates on the Tilakkhana. At some point, the essence of Tilakkhana “sink in” to the mind, and one becomes a Sotapanna.
At that point, one gets on the lokottara (Noble) Eightfold Path to the higher stages of Nibbana.

By the way, one does not need to know which type of individual one is, even though one may have an idea. As one follows the Path, one will be directed automatically by Dhamma itself: “dhamme ha ve rakkati dhammacari”.

[Lal]

Siebe said:

“Listening to a gradual dhamma-teaching and then there is the arising of the pure and spotless Dhamma-eye by al listenor, is mentioned in DN3§2.21, DN5§9, DN14§3.15, MN56§18, SN35.74 (numbers en §§ refer to DN translation Walshe en MN and SN translations Bodhi).

It is said that this arising of the spotless Dhamma-eye refers to Stream-entrence. Is this what you are looking for?..”

Thanks, Siebe. Yes. There are many suttas where it is mentioned that one attained the Sotapanna phala while listening to a desana.

What I am looking for is the mechanism. This is what I wrote in the post “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala”:

“3. September 22, 2017: Previously, I had stated that one could learn about Tilakkhana by reading these days. That is still true and one could become a Sōtapanna anugāmi by reading.

However, recently I came upon a dēsanā by the Waharaka Thēro which stated that a Sōtapanna anugāmi attains the Sōtapanna stage only while listening to a dēsanāby an Ariya (Noble person, i.e., one with at least the Sōtapanna stage).

Apparently, a Sōtadvāra citta vithi of an Ariya (during a dēsanā) has the necessary javana power to act as a trigger. I am trying to find a Tipitaka reference, and I would appreciate receiving it from anyone who has that information. I will edit this post to include that reference when I find it.

However, Waharaka Thēro has mentioned that listening to a recorded dēsanā should count, per his opinion.
The phala moment is triggered by an energy in the sound wave emitted by an Ariya (javana power of the Ariya). So, I think it should be in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka, where such details remain hidden.”

Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala

In other words, one cannot attain the Sotapanna phala by listening to the same discourse given by an anariya (i.e., one who has not attained at least the Sotapanna stage).

You can read more on javana power at:

Javana of a Citta – The Root of Mental Power

[Lal]

1. There are 4 ultimate realities: thoughts, mental factors (cetasika), matter (rupa), and Nibbana. The first three belong to “the world”, and when one escapes from the world one attains Nibbana:
The Grand Unified Theory of Dhamma – Introduction

2. Thus thoughts about the material world cease when an Arahant attains Parinibbana or anupadisesa Nibbana. It is also experienced with Nirodha Samapatti.

3. However, one cannot attain Nibbana by forcefully suppressing thoughts. That will lead to rebirth in the Asanna realm, since avijja is not removed.

One needs to think clearly and mindfully to attain Nibbana. As Johnny says, one needs to realize the real nature of this world by contemplating on the Tilakkhana, the three characteristics of nature. Those are revealed only by a Buddha, and thus one needs to come across the correct meanings of them first:
Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta

[Lal]

Here is what I have understood in brief. I am on travel and thus not able to access all my resources.

1. Vimokkha basically means “becoming free”. When one attains Nibbana, that is the final and complete freedom. So, it refers to Nibbana.

2. Vimokkha (or Nibbana) can be attained via contemplating mainly on anicca, dukkha, or anatta and thus leading to sunnata, appanihita, animitta Vimokkha. Of course it is the same Nibbana that is reached. It is just following different ways of getting there.

3. Based on the types of individuals, eight types of individuals are indicated (attha vimokkha): Pannavimukta (those who have high wisdom), Saddhavimukta (those who have faith),etc. Again, it is the same Nibbana that is reached.

I will try to find references when I get back (or someone can post if they know). But please continue the discussion.

[Lal]

Agreed. But we can put it in another way too.

When one attains the Sotapanna stage, one has removed the ten types of micca ditthi. He/she has also removed some of the micca ditthi associated with not comprehending Tilakkhana. Now one is on the Noble Path.

Furthermore, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami when one has removed most of the ten types of micca ditthi, and HAS HEARD OR READ about the correct interpretation of Tilakkhana: anicca, dukkha, anatta.

The transition from Sotapanna Anugami to Sotapanna phala can happen anytime after that while one is listening to a discourse; the phala moment registers in the mind in a flash.

This special requirement about Sotapanna phala moment happening while listening to a discourse is something I still need to confirm with a Tipitaka reference. If anyone has that reference, I would be grateful.

It is possible to explain the same thing in many different ways.

[Author]

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