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I just opened a new topic in the Abhidhamma forum, “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (Bhikkhu Bodhi) – Grave Error on p. 164” to address Tobias G‘s comment on Dec 27, 2017.
Difference between moha and avijja:
Lobha,Dosa, Moha versus Raga, Patigha, Avijja@Siebe about sunburn:
If I did not know about you, I would think you are trying to pull my leg (that you are joking).
Sunburn depends on the amount of sunlight and how long you have been exposed. You have not mentioned those two critical factors. If you can be more specific about them, that would help. It looks like the in #2, the Sun was not that bright compared to #1.
Johnny Lim asked the following questions:
“Is the famous Schrodinger’s Cat experiment trying to depict this phenomenon of Quantum Superposition?”
It is a bit different. It involves the decay of a radioactive substance, even though some people try to make a connection.
“Are rupa kalapas a cocktail mixture of satara mahā bhūta?”
Yes. That is what is described in the post (specifically #2 and #12, among others).
“I know of some Theravadins who taught practitioners to discern rupa kalapas and the nature of satara mahā bhūta in order to discern ultimate materiality and mentality in order to fully penetrate the first Noble Truth…”
That is not possible. Rupa kalapas are formed within a billionth of a second and only a Buddha can discern such things.
In order to discern the ultimate materiality and mentality (or the nature of matter) one needs to have the yathabhuta nana (even that is not necessary if one comprehends the anicca nature, which CAN BE also be realized without knowing about the ’theory”). The new post on yathabhuta nana provides the theory.
Siebe said: “2. kamma-vipaka refers to what happens as a result or consequence of an intentional act. So, when i decide to take a shower, the nice feelings of the warm water are kamma-vipaka because they are a result of my decision to take a shower. The feelings do not arise from a good-kamma beeja, but they arise as a result of contact with nice warm water.”
Yes. It is a kamma vipaka (result of an action). Taking a warm shower leads to a nice feeling.
It is not necessary to connect all kamma to kamma beeja that last into future lives. Some actions have results right away, or during the current lifetime (called dittadhamma vedaniya kamma). For these, one could say the kamma beeja uses its power right away or at least by the end of the lifetime. Long lasting kamma beeja are there for other types of stronger kamma where results can appear in future lives.
That is correct.
I now see the root cause of your confusion.Kamma is action (by the mind, speech, and bodily actions). Kamma vipaka is what happens as a result of that action. Without understanding that one cannot even begin to comprehend laws of kamma, let alone other concepts in Buddha Dhamma.
What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?I am beginning to understand why intelligent people get confused about Buddha Dhamma. They do not have a good grasp of fundamentals.
Siebe said: “.When i decide to stand on one leg, and as a result feel pain, is this pain due to a bad kamma-beeja ripening, or has it just a physiological cause.”
I have explained in detail why the decision to stand on a leg is NOT a kamma vipaka. Please read above and let me know the points that you don’t agree with.
Let me try another way to explain this, since this is important to understand.
This is exactly what one needs to do in Satipatthana. In this particular case of moving a body part it is Kāyānupassanā. When a thought comes to the mind to stand on one leg, one needs to think about the consequences of that action. If it is a beneficial act then one needs to do it; if it is a detrimental act one should not (as I explained in detail above).This is no different than deciding to hit someone. When such a thought comes to the mind, one needs to realize that it is a bad bodily action.
Many people tend to focus on lobha and dosa as immoral. But moha is immoral too. The decision to carry out an act that one KNOWS will lead to suffering for oneself or others is immoral.
See the post on Kāyānupassanā for more details:
Maha Satipatthana SuttaP.S. As Akvan said, it is possible that the thought to stand on one leg MAY come to the mind as a kamma vipaka. But the ultimate decision is up to the individual. Otherwise, working of kamma will be deterministic and no one will be able to attain Nibbana.
Yes. I also agree with all three comments by Siebe, Vince, and Akvan above.
It is indeed not possible for any living being, including an Arahant, to fully comprehend the wisdom and capabilities of a Buddha. I discuss this a bit at:
Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-ConsistencyEven though an Arahant attains the same Nibbana as a Buddha, the capabilities of a Buddha can be matched only by another Buddha.
Siebe said: “We now tend to belief, based on craving and avijja and identifying with khandha’s, that we are ‘a human’, an “I”, a subject, a living being, a person, a man or woman, but that is only due to deeply ingrained habits.”
That is the essence of Buddha Dhamma. When one realizes that it is not fruitful (and also dangerous) to crave for things in this world, one’s various gathi will slowly dissipate. At the end, at Arahanthood, there will be no “gathi” left, except for harmless habits devoid of defilements. The dangers seen at the Anagami stage, for example, cannot even be fathomed at the Sotapanna stage (dangers of kama raga).
Nothing happens without a cause. In modern science, each event can be attributed to a cause (more likely many causes). One can believe whatever one wants, but there are laws of nature.
Kamma is action by the mind, speech, and body done with intention (based on lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha).
We do millions of such kamma a day, and most are not strong. But each one has consequences. Just like every action has a reaction in physics, each kamma has a consequence.
So, it is impossible to figure out how trillions of past kamma lead us to experience many types of sense inputs a day.Only when we experience bodily pain (dukha) or bodily pleasure (sukha), those are due to strong past kamma. In other cases, some sense inputs are brought in and any suffering (or pleasure) that we experience is mind-made (somanassa/domanassa), also called “samphassa ja vedana”. Also see the topic:
Could bodily pain be due causes other than kamma vipaka?All this is hard to explain in a post. As one learns Abhidhamma, one may be able to figure out. However, it is not necessary to fully grasp this complex issue. But it is not difficult to see the truth of the framework, based on its validity. It is the same as believing things that physicists have stated, even though one may not have studied physics and thus may not be able to comprehend the finer details. Of course, it is good to understand as mush as one can.
Just as in science, the complex theory of Abhidhamma can be proven wrong only if serious inconsistencies can be pointed out. That is how scientists throw away “bad theories” that cannot explain a new observation, and build faith in “good theories” as long as they are consistent with each new observations.Tobias G said: “Can someone please send the link to Abhidhamma with the statement about “bodily pain is always due to kamma vipaka”? Or is there no English translation?”.
The “conventional English source” for Abhidhamma that I normally consult is the book, “A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma”, by Bhikkhu Bodhi (2000), which I will call Ref. 1 below. See:
Abhidhamma – Introduction” for information.In Ref. 1, p. 52, out of the 54 types of citta associated with the kamal loka, 1 is for (bodily) pleasure and 1 is for (bodily) pain. There are 18 with joy (somanassa), 2 with displeasure (domanassa), and 32 with neutral (equanimity). The latter 20 types are what I have discussed as “samphassa ja vedana”.
Those 5 types of vedana are discussed briefly on p. 116 of Ref. 1.
BI am sure similar descriptions are available in the “free eBook” by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, mentioned in the above post.Siebe said, “But is this the case when one decides to stand on one leg? Is that an immoral decision, is it kammically evil or black deed? Is it akusala? Maybe in the sense of ‘not-skillful’ but i would not say in the sense of immoral or evil.”
Just to stand on one leg is a foolish act, if it is done without any other possible effect in mind. Everything does not need to tied up to moral/immoral. Deciding to cross a busy street without looking is not a moral/immoral; it is just foolish. Actions have consequences, and one does need to consult suttas to figure out.
Siebe said, “Maybe one decides to stand on one leg to raise money for people with cancer.The motives are very good but one suffers immense pains.”
Those are two kamma (two intentions): the action of standing up on one leg (with that intention) WILL lead to pain no matter what the other intention is. Here, the other intention is to raise money and that is a good kamma (done by the mind or a mano sankhara), and may bring good benefits in the furture. The first was a kaya sankhara (to move and keep the leg up).
Just because one BELIEVES one has good intention does not necessarily mean it will bring good vipaka. Suicide bombers think they are doing a good deed by killing others and that it will bring good results for themselves and their families, but that is just being foolish.
People do foolish actions believing that they will bring good results in the future. These are due to micca ditthi or wrong views.
It does not matter who is doing the action. The Bodhisatva (not the Buddha) subjected his body to harsh punishments and had to face the consequences later in the life (some of the ailments were due to those hardships that the body went through).This is why panna (wisdom) is critical. We don’t need to consult suttas for everything. Somethings we can figure out by ourselves after we learn the basics from the suttas. The fact the standing on a leg leads to pain is a no brainer. If there is no other intention (like doing it for charity), then it is just a foolish act. The goal of Buddha Dhamma is to avoid pain as much as possible.
There is an easy rule given by the Buddha to figure out what actions are good or bad:
Do it:
1.If it is beneficial to oneself. 2. If it is beneficial to others.
Don’t do it:
3. If it is detrimental to oneself 4. If it is detrimental to others.
If a given action involves 1 or 2 AND 3 or 4, then both good and bad vipaka can materialize. One has to figure out whether the benefits outweigh the bad consequences.In the last example Siebe gave: there will be bad consequences of jumping into the fire (burning). Good consequences in future for saving a child. Laws of kamma can be complex. But these are simple ones that we can figure out easily.
In all these examples, the decision to act is NOT a kamma vipaka. The decision (to stand on a leg or to jump into the fire) is made by the individual on his/her own volition. So, most of this discussion is outside the topic.
We also need to remember that it is impossible to avoid (inadvertently) doing things that are harmful to others. When we cook or even boil water to make a tea, millions of lifeforms are destroyed (by the way, those do not bring bad vipaka, because they are not intentional). They can be avoided only by getting to Parinibbana. In the meantime, we just need to be mindful and do the best we can. That is Satipatthana.
Yes, D. This forum topic is a good. Thanks for starting it.
I am familiar with this particular meditation technique through his book, even though I have not attended one.
Based on what I have read, one gets to samatha with breath meditation and then is supposed to do vipassana meditation.
1. Could you elaborate on what is involved in vipassana? What does one meditate on during the vipassana?
2. Breath meditation is not the anapana meditation taught by the Buddha:
Is Ānāpānasati Breath Meditation?
Has anyone questioned the instructors of this issue? Any others who have attended can comment too. I am just curious.Kind Regards, Lal
It is important to realize that the issue here is only bodily suffering (or pleasure). Abhidhamma DOES NOT say mental suffering (or pleasure) is due to past kamma vipaka.
In Abhidhamma, all sense inputs via the other five sense inputs (other than physical body) are initially felt as upekkha (neutral) vedana. Only the bodily sense inputs could lead to dukha vedana (getting injured, headaches, cancer, etc) or sukha vedana (good massage, lying on a comfortable bed, etc).
When we generate joy upon seeing something that we like, for example, it comes in as a neutral vedana. We generate joy via “samphassa ja vedana” based on our gathi. A good example is seeing a well-known politician. Some people generate good feelings and others may generate bad feelings; but it is the same person they were all looking at. One may need to contemplate on this and let the idea sink in. It is an important point. It holds true for any sense input other than the bodily sense inputs.
I don’t think anyone stated otherwise above, but I just wanted to make it clear.
I still need to give this some more thought when I get get back. But one question from Siebe can be answered.
Siebe said, “. When one, for example, decides to stand on one leg for a day, one will surely feel very painful feelings.”
That is definitely a kamma vipaka. It is NOT a vipaka of a kamma done in the past, but is due to a vipaka of a kamma done AT THAT TIME. One would not feel such pain, unless one DECIDED to stand on one leg. That decision by oneself and the follow-up action led to the dukha vedana.
If one decides shoot oneself, that is the same. One DECIDED to do that. Kamma is action done with intention. Some kammas bring immediate vipaka, as in those two cases.
Another type of bodily kamma vipaka that can be DIRECTLY and EXCLUSIVELY attributed to PAST kamma arise due to anantariya kamma, like killing a parent, injuring a Buddha, etc. Vipaka due to anantariya kamma WILL be realized without exception. Those will be bodily pain (dukha vedana).
Some Brahmins of the time of the Buddha used to attribute all vedana to kamma vipaka. That is what the Buddha denied.
So, we have narrowed down the scope of what was said in those suttas (and Milindapanha) that Siebe referred to. We still need to address those specific situations related to bodily sensations.
Lobha, dosa, moha are the deepest levels of greed, hate, and ignorance. As one follows the Path, they are gradually reduced; see:
Lobha,Dosa, Moha versus Raga, Patigha, AvijjaA clear break to raga, patigha, avijja occurs at the Sotapanna stage. One of the three types of raga (kama raga) and patigha are reduced at the Sakadagami stage, and removed at the Anagami stage. The other two types of raga (bhava and vibhava raga) and avijja completely removed at the Arahant stage.
When one acts without lobha, dosa, moha, one is acting with alobha, adosa, amoha. Even the most immoral person may act with alobha, adosa, amoha sometimes. As one follows the Path one will act with less and less moha, dosa, moha.Just like lobha, dosa, moha have various levels, alobha, adosa, amoha also have different levels. For example, as dosa decreases from mere adosa, metta, karuna, mudita increase. As lobha decreases from mere alobha, one’s tendency to give (dana) and help out others increases. One will also start acting with amoha more and more, and as one learns Dhamma, one’s panna (wisdom) will grow. Of course, amoha is greatly reduced when one removes ten types of mica ditthi, and panna will start growing drastically when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana.
It is important to realize that acting with panna (wisdom) is much more than acting with amoha. Amoha just means acting without moha (i.e., acting with amoha). One has to learn Dhamma to act with panna. And panna grows exponentially when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana.
Thanks, Siebe, for another excellent topic. I am making this a new topic in the Sutta Interpretations forum, since it requires study of suttas.
However, as I mentioned in the side panel, please do not pose questions just to me in the future.
Siebe is correct in saying that “Abhidhamma seems to analyse that bodily pain is Always kamma vipaka”.
So, the question is: Are some suttas saying that there could be causes other than kamma vipaka that lead to bodily pain?
I have not studied those suttas that Siebe mentions. So, it would be good to see whether the suttas SN36.21, AN5.104 and AN10.60, as well as Milindpanha (which is attributed to Nagasena Thero who lived about 200 years after the Buddha), say that there could be other causes.
In Buddha Dhamma anything in this world happens due to one or more causes. But for those causes to bring effects, suitable conditions must be present. This is discussed in the section “Patthana Dhamma”.
So, conditions play a key role in the Principle of Cause and Effect in Buddha Dhamma, which is Paticca Samuppada. I wonder whether those “other possible causes” are really conditions in this particular case. It is also possible that there is a totally different explanation.
Please do not hesitate to comment. I am still on travel and will be back early next week.
MN72 describes that the Buddha (or an Arahant) has no pancaupadanakkhandha, i.e., no attachment to rupa, vedana, etc. And that the nature of Nibbana is not possible to fathom in worldly terms.
This is why sunnata is not “emptiness” in the sense of “emptiness in worldly terms”. It is only empty of raga, dosa, moha (ragakkhayo Nibbanam, dosakkhayo Nibbanam, mohakkhayo Nibbanam).Until Parinibbana, Buddha (or an Arahant) would have a pancakkhandha, but no pancaupadanakkhandha. Both are absent after Parinibbana. But of course, nama gotta (records) of those pancakkhandha remain forever. That is why the Buddha was able to describe the lives of previous Buddhas.
As was discussed in the other topic, saupadisesa Nibbana (elimination of direct mental suffering) is experienced during the life itself. Elimination of all suffering is at anupadisesa Nibbana or Parinibbana.
