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The sutta is at: “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta“.
The four posts there can be printed out or downloaded as a pdf using the “Print/PDF” button at the bottom of the page.
That can be done for any post at the website.
y not asked: “Are there any suttas where this ‘retrieving from bygone desanas* in relation to the various realms are given?”
This information is gathered from various suttas, including the Maha Parinibbana Sutta and the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. It will take a lot of time for someone to make a referenced account.
y not asked: ““One can only make CONDITIONS for another to, say receive merits, but that living being must have the right causes to receive them; see, “Transfer of Merits (Pattidāna) – How Does it Happen?“.’
AND I have read that post. There it is said , simply put, that the other must be open to receive whatever merits are intended to reach him/her. I do not recall any mention of CONDITIONS that one can make FOR THE OTHER in that respect”
I don’t think I can explain it any better than in that post. I gave the following analogy: A radio/television station is broadcasting a program. But the reception of the program by a radio/TV depends on the quality of that device and also whether it has been “tuned” to the correct station.
So, just sending merits (broadcasting signal) is not enough. One at the receiving end must have the right mindset (receiver tuned to receive it).Uyap sadi: ““Buddha Dhamma is the Buddha’s doctrine could not be subject to change.”
AND “Then can I assume Buddha Dhamma is Asankhata?”There are many things in this world that do not change. For example, the nama gotta (memory records) are permanent. Buddha Dhamma is like those nama gotta; do not change with time. That is why it is “akalika“.
The word “sankata” is used to denote things that arise due to “sankhara“, and lead to suffering or are associated with suffering. They arise due to avijja or ignorance of the Four Noble Truths (or in other words Tilakkhana, the true nature of this world).
Nibbana is attained when when the root causes for suffering are removed, i.e., cultivating panna. When panna gets to its pinnacle at the Arahant phala moment, the mind has seen the absolute true nature of this world and will not do any more sankhara that will lead to future suffering of any kind. Nibbana is called “asankata” in that sense. It is attained by stopping the arising of all such sankhara.
@Eirc: I have already explained this in detail under another question of yours. I am pasting it below. Please feel free to ask questions if anything is not clear.
The two examples you give above do not belong to the “frivolous talk” category. To live in the society, we need to made “small talk”. Frivolous talk is when people get together and gossip for hours on end. The simplest way is not to consider these things as “absolute rules”. Some people avoid taking even a sip of alcohol for the fear of breaking a precept. That is being foolish. We need to understand that drinking is bad only because when done on a regular basis (and at extreme levels) it can be bad for your health and even more, it can lead to “bad decision making”; one’s mind can lose “mindfulness”.
What we need to understand is the priority of things to do, which tasks to focus on. Worries about spending time on watching TV, internet, movies, frivolous talk, etc will go away when one understands what the priorities should be.
I have explained this in various posts, and mentioned in this in response to a previous question of yours. But since this is an important issue, let me put this from a different point-of-view.
A key concept that has been hidden is “gati” (or “gathi”). Based on our actions, speech, and thoughts (which are kaya, vaci, and mano sankhara), we accumulate various gati, which can be loosely translated as habits/character, but more like moral character.
Let us take person X. If X is capable of doing actions suitable for an animal, he has “animal gati”. These could lie in a broad range, for example, vicious animals kill, so if X can kill (especially a human), then he has gati suitable for an animal. On the other hand, if X has cultivated rupavacara jhana, and enjoys getting into rupavacara jhana, then he has cultivated gati suitable for a rupavacara brahma.
X may have many different gati, but one of the strong ones will determine the bhava that is grasped. So, if X has strong vicious gati suitable for an animal, X is likely to grasp a bhava in the animal realm. On the other hand, if X has dominant gati of a rupavacara brahma, he would grasp that bhava and will be born a brahma to enjoy jhanic pleasures (which are of course temporary).
I really recommend everyone to watch the movie “Earthlings”,at the following site: “Nationearth.com“
(Warning: There are many scenes that are highly disturbing to the mind).So, animals in general undergo much harsh suffering than humans. So, such suffering is possible for X, if X has some kind of “animal gati”. If X is a serial killer, he has gati suitable for much harsher realms in the niraya. If X has “excessively greedy gati” (and thus can commit immoral things to get them), X could grasp a “preta bhava” and be born a preta. It must be noted that just engaging in normal sense pleasures do not belong to this category (so watching TV or going to movies is not a problem here; they are not “apayagami actions”).
So, if one is habitually doing strong dasa akusala, one has ‘apayagami gati”. Here apaya includes the lowest four realms of niraya, preta, asura, and animal. By following the Eightfold Path, X can get rid of such “apayagami gati”. Then one becomes Sotapanna. However, one needs to remove the 10 types of micca ditthi and also comprehend Tilakkhana. That comes AFTER making sure one abstains from those “apayagami actions”.
The next higher 7 realms are the higher realms of the kama loka: human realm and the 6 deva realms. One gets a human or deva bhava by cultivating “human gati” or “deva gati”. But there is still suffering in these realms, even though less than in the apayas. As long as X is attached to sense pleasures, X will have those gati. When one comprehends the long-term dangers of sense pleasures, one would get rid of such gati, and attain the Anagami stage (via Sakadagami stage; I am making this brief).
Once one becomes an Anagami, birth is still possible in the 16 rupavacara brahma realms and the 4 arupavacara brahma realms. Even though suffering in those realms are much less, there is still suffering there. When one realizes that eventually, one loses “upadana” for such bhava also, and one attains the Arahant stage. That is Nibbana. However, one should not even think about the Sakadagami stage until one is a Sotapanna/Sotapanna Anugami.
That is a basic outline. Of course, there are so many details. Those gati and bhava are fueled by Paticca Samuppada cycles that run each time X commits an akusala kamma (which cultivate apayagami gati) or punna kamma (which cultivate gati suitable for human and higher realms).
These set of gati are also called “asava”. When all gati are removed, one becomes an Arahant. Then one will not grasp any bhava. This is why Nibbana is also called “asvakkhaya” or getting rid of asava. Again, DO NOT even contemplate about anything higher than the Sotapanna stage. People get scared about “getting extinct”. One must take one step at a time. One can always stop at the Sotapanna stage! But it is good to get that overall world view of the Buddha.
Now, it is good idea to expand on the above outline by finding and reading posts on gati (gathi), bhava, jati, etc., the key words that you need to get a good idea about.
Once that is done, and the above world view becomes clear, one can make an “action plan” and decide what tasks to be undertaken first.
It is obvious that the first priority would be to avoid births in the apayas. So, one needs to make sure that one abstains from actions, speech, and thoughts that could lead to four types of “apaya bhava”, so to speak. These are the strongest versions of dasa akusala.
I discussed another related aspect in the post: “Basic Mindfulness for Niramisa Sukha“. Note that I have revised the titles of some discussions to make the subject matter clear.
Please feel free to ask questions. I can direct to appropriate posts to learn any concepts that are not clear. I think this is a good undertaking for anyone who is interested in making an action plan to follow the Path systematically.
@Eirc: What we need to understand is the priority of things to do, which tasks to focus on. Worries about spending time on watching TV, internet, movies, will go away when one understands what the priorities should be.
I have explained this in various posts, and mentioned in this in response to a previous question of yours. But since this is an important issue, let me put this from a different point-of-view.
A key concept that has been hidden is “gati” (or “gathi”). Based on our actions, speech, and thoughts (which are kaya, vaci, and mano sankhara), we accumulate various gati, which can be loosely translated as habits/character, but more like moral character.
Let us take person X. If X is capable of doing actions suitable for an animal, he has “animal gati”. These could lie in a broad range, for example, vicious animals kill, so if X can kill (especially a human), then he has gati suitable for an animal. On the other hand, if X has cultivated rupavacara jhana, and enjoys getting into rupavacara jhana, then he has cultivated gati suitable for a rupavacara brahma.
X may have many different gati, but one of the strong ones will determine the bhava that is grasped. So, if X has strong vicious gati suitable for an animal, X is likely to grasp a bhava in the animal realm. On the other hand, if X has dominant gati of a rupavacara brahma, he would grasp that bhava and will be born a brahma to enjoy jhanic pleasures (which are of course temporary).
I really recommend everyone to watch the movie “Earthlings”,at the following site: “Nationearth.com“
(Warning: There are many scenes that are highly disturbing to the mind).So, animals in general undergo much harsh suffering than humans. So, such suffering is possible for X, if X has some kind of “animal gati”. If X is a serial killer, he has gati suitable for much harsher realms in the niraya. If X has “excessively greedy gati” (and thus can commit immoral things to get them), X could grasp a “preta bhava” and be born a preta. It must be noted that just engaging in normal sense pleasures do not belong to this category (so watching TV or going to movies is not a problem here; they are not “apayagami actions”).
So, if one is habitually doing strong dasa akusala, one has ‘apayagami gati”. Here apaya includes the lowest four realms of niraya, preta, asura, and animal. By following the Eightfold Path, X can get rid of such “apayagami gati”. Then one becomes Sotapanna. However, one needs to remove the 10 types of micca ditthi and also comprehend Tilakkhana. That comes AFTER making sure one abstains from those “apayagami actions”.
The next higher 7 realms are the higher realms of the kama loka: human realm and the 6 deva realms. One gets a human or deva bhava by cultivating “human gati” or “deva gati”. But there is still suffering in these realms, even though less than in the apayas. As long as X is attached to sense pleasures, X will have those gati. When one comprehends the long-term dangers of sense pleasures, one would get rid of such gati, and attain the Anagami stage (via Sakadagami stage; I am making this brief).
Once one becomes an Anagami, birth is still possible in the 16 rupavacara brahma realms and the 4 arupavacara brahma realms. Even though suffering in those realms are much less, there is still suffering there. When one realizes that eventually, one loses “upadana” for such bhava also, and one attains the Arahant stage. That is Nibbana. However, one should not even think about the Sakadagami stage until one is a Sotapanna/Sotapanna Anugami.
That is a basic outline. Of course, there are so many details. Those gati and bhava are fueled by Paticca Samuppada cycles that run each time X commits an akusala kamma (which cultivate apayagami gati) or punna kamma (which cultivate gati suitable for human and higher realms).
These set of gati are also called “asava”. When all gati are removed, one becomes an Arahant. Then one will not grasp any bhava. This is why Nibbana is also called “asvakkhaya” or getting rid of asava. Again, DO NOT even contemplate about anything higher than the Sotapanna stage. People get scared about “getting extinct”. One must take one step at a time. One can always stop at the Sotapanna stage! But it is good to get that overall world view of the Buddha.
Now, it is good idea to expand on the above outline by finding and reading posts on gati (gathi), bhava, jati, etc., the key words that you need to get a good idea about.
Once that is done, and the above world view becomes clear, one can make an “action plan” and decide what tasks to be undertaken first.
It is obvious that the first priority would be to avoid births in the apayas. So, one needs to make sure that one abstains from actions, speech, and thoughts that could lead to four types of “apaya bhava”, so to speak. These are the strongest versions of dasa akusala.
Please feel free to ask questions. I can direct to appropriate posts to learn any concepts that are not clear. I think this is a good undertaking for anyone who is interested in making an action plan to follow the Path systematically.
Seibe: Your questions are all over the place. I spend time answering your questions and you don’t even respond to what I ask.
Please think through before asking questions, and ask them in a simple way so that the question is clear. Also, you need to answer my questions, if this is going to be discussion.
The above question does not make any sense, in the sense that answer should be obvious: Each person responds to a given situation in his own way, based on his own understanding. Hereafter, I will just ignore questions that do not make sense or trivial like this one.
@y not:
Yes. The disappearance of Buddha Dhamma within thousands of years happens only in the human realm.
– There are rupavacara brahmas in the realms #23-#27 (which are reserved for Anagamis), who attained Anagami stage by listening to previous Buddhas who lived many aeons (Maha Kalpas) long ago. Note that the lifetime in those realms is 500 Maha Kalpas; see, “31 Realms of Existence“.I just remembered that you also pointed out (under a different topic) that one’s thoughts cannot directly cause another SIGNIFICANTLY. Yes. One can only make CONDITIONS for another to, say receive merits, but that living being must have the right causes to receive them; see, “Transfer of Merits (Pattidāna) – How Does it Happen?“.
You seem to pay good attention while reading posts!!
@Siebe:
That is correct. The Earth (and Solar system) will be re-formed billions of years after it is destroyed in about 5 billions years.
– Yes. There have been an infinite number of Earths. But don’t get into these things too much. These can distract one’s attention from the Path, especially since there is no evidence to support this re-formation from science, YET.
– It is to be noted that science thought that the universe is in a steady-state only 100 years ago. Einstein believed that and actually tried to incorporate a “fudge factor” into his cosmological model in order to force the universe to be in steady-state.Welcome to the discussion forum, Uyap!
Yes. All Buddhas teach the same Buddha Dhamma.
That includes the Four Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold Path, and Paticca Samuppada.
Our Solar system lasts around 15 billion years; that is 15 thousand million years. During this cycle four Buddhas have already appeared with Buddha Gotama the last and Buddha Kassapa before him. There is one more Buddha appearing before the destruction of this Earth. A given Buddha Sasana of a given Buddha lasts from 5000 to 80,000 years. And Buddha Sasana of two consecutive Buddhas could be separated by millions of years. So, when one Buddha Sasana (teachings of a given Buddha) disappears from the world (among humans), there will be a large time gap before the next.
Therefore, each Buddha discovers Buddha Dhamma on his own. Therefore, it seems to be amazing that they all come up with the same Dhamma. But that is simple to explain. Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate truth about this world. That truth or Dhamma never changes.
Finally, even though there are going to be five Buddhas in this “world cycle” (Maha Kalpa), that is very rare; it is called “Maha Baddha Kalpa“. For example, there were 30 such Maha Kalpas (about 450 billion years!) before this Maha Kalpa, where not a single Buddha appeared.
This is why we should try to make as much progress as possible within our lifetimes.
P.S. To complete this account, Buddha Dhamma (Four Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold Path, and Paticca Samuppada, etc) is ALWAYS valid regardless of whether those teachings are known to the humans or not. They are laws of Nature. The Buddhas just discover those laws — by their own efforts — and teach them.
1 user thanked author for this post.
Hi Asdish: Yes. you can progress rapidly by avoiding dasa akusala and doing meditation.
However, meditation should not be restricted to formal mediation. One needs to be on the lookout for any defiled thoughts that come to the mind at all times. This is real Satipatthana (“sati” + “patthana” or being aware of where the mind is trying to get loose and go off in tangents); see, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
You may also want to go through the following series, after covering above:
“Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“@Siebe:
You said: “..i have become more aware of the effects of my own intentions, words and deeds, and i have become more interested in others welbeing too. My orientation has shifted more to the welbeing of others.”
AND
“Being oriented this way at the same time is a kind of burden. Becoming so concerned with not creating suffering to oneself and others, that itself is a kind of suffering, a burden.’I cannot see how compassion for others can be a burden. If one has compassion for others, the MOST one can do is to stay away from dasa akusala that deals with other living beings:
intentionally killing humans or animals is bad, stealing from others is bad, engaging is sexual misconduct is bad, participating in heavy drinking/taking drugs is bad, intentionally deceiving others is bad, engaging in gossiping, empty talk, etc are bad.Furthermore, generating bad thoughts about someone/something all the time is bad. This is an aspect most people do not pay attention to: “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
On the other hand, one must do good things and generate good thoughts or good vaci sankhara. One can also help others by giving to needy, fulfilling one’s responsibilities at work and at at home, teaching/discussing Dhamma, etc. None of these are burdens, if one does those with true understanding. One feels that one should do those things out of compassion and to be a responsible human being.
Can you state clearly how having compassion for others can be a burden? Please use simple words like I did in the above paragraphs.
Welcome to the discussion forum, Asdish!
I am gald that you find the website useful.There are over 500 posts at the site, and which posts/sections are suitable for a given person depends on the person. This could be a good start: “User’s Guide to Pure Dhamma Website“. Also, read the recent discussions at: “General Forum“, and any other forums that grabs your attention.
Once you see a hook (a point that makes sense), just go deeper from there. Ask questions if something is not clear. The “Search” box on top right is really good in finding relevant posts using key words/phrases.
A suggestion that I made in another discussion is: Stay away from dasa akusala as much as possible and read posts in sections that you understand, rad the links to other sections given there, and so on. Those two things help each other; just doing one is not enough. Purification of the mind comes from both.
This is just a rant by what I call a “philosopher” (someone who is speculating about the nature of this world).
They say or write things that sound good, but do not have any substance. If someone can extract a single thing of substance that is conducive to “cooling down of the mind” and really significant (and is contradictory to what I discuss at the website), I will be happy to discuss that.
My advice to Eric (and anyone else interested) is to just stop listening these rants for a FEW MONTHS and just focus on Pure Dhamma: Stay away from dasa akusala as much as possible and read posts in sections that you understand, read the links to other sections given there, and so on. Those two things help each other; just doing one is not enough.
Once you see a hook (a point that makes sense), just go deeper from there. Ask questions if something is not clear. But don’t ask questions about the Arahant or Anagami stages yet, if you don’t think you are a Sotapanna. That is because it is hard to comprehend such deeper mindsets for a normal human. Can someone comprehend calculus without understanding how to do basic math?
I know some people get upset when I say these things. But I am saying it out of compassion. In order to make progress, one first needs to do an honest self-assessment and decide where one is on the Path. Just because one may have spent years and years reading essentially irrelevant things such as philosophy or even labelled as Buddha Dhamma does not mean much. Sooner one realizes that, the better off one would be. However, ultimately it is up to each individual to decide the path for oneself. These are just my suggestions.
@Siebe: ” In the end we must see and accept that suffering does not arise only due to our actions, but there is the mind of the other person too.”
What are you trying to say?
That you can change another person’s thoughts/suffering?
OR
That another person can make you suffer (without physical force)?One can of course hurt another physically. One may be able to make another person (especially one who is ignorant of Dhamma) suffer by bad speech. But one cannot significantly affect another by one’s thoughts; that will only hurt oneself (of course bad actions and speech directed towards another will hurt oneself too, many times over!).
One needs to find happiness within oneself. Even the Buddha can only show the way.
I am not really sure what you are trying to say. If you are referring to a particular passage in the sutta, please quote from that, so that we can see what you really mean.
I have translated the full “Vitthāra Sutta (AN 4.162)” that Siebe mentioned above.
You can select the English translation at the Sutta Central site using the top left menu bar. Then you will be able to compare with my translation below:
“Bhikkhus, there are these four modes of practice. Which four? Difficult practice with slow progress, difficult practice with fast progress, easy and pleasant practice with slow progress, & easy and pleasant practice with fast progress.
“And which is difficult practice with slow progress? This is the case where a certain individual is by birth of an intensely sensual nature. He easily experiences distress born of passion. OR, he is by birth of an intensely aggressive nature (quick to get angry). He easily experiences distress born of this aggressive nature. OR he is normally of an intensely ignorant nature (slow witted). He easily experiences distress born of delusion (ignorance). The five faculties of his—the faculty of saddha (faith in Dhamma), the faculty of viriya (effort), the faculty of sati (mindfulness), the faculty of samadhi (to get to tranquility), the faculty of panna (wisdom)—are weak. Because of their weakness, he makes only slow progress on the Path, and takes a longer time to get to Nibbana. This is called difficult practice with slow progress.
“And which is difficult practice with fast progress? This is the case where a certain individual is by birth of an intensely sensual nature. He easily experiences distress born of passion. OR, he is by birth of an intensely aggressive nature (quick to get angry). He easily experiences distress born of this aggressive nature. OR he is normally of an intensely ignorant nature (slow witted). He easily experiences distress born of delusion (ignorance). The five faculties of his—the faculty of saddha (faith in Dhamma), the faculty of viriya (effort), the faculty of sati (mindfulness), the faculty of samadhi (to get to tranquility), the faculty of panna (wisdom)—are strong. Because of their strength, he makes fast progress on the Path, and takes a shorter time to get to Nibbana. This is called difficult practice with fast progress.
“And which is comfortable practice with slow progress? This is the case where a certain individual is by birth of not intensely sensual nature. He does not easily experience distress born of passion. OR, he is by birth of not intensely aggressive nature (quick to get angry). He does not easily experience distress born of this aggressive nature. OR he is normally not of an intensely ignorant nature. He does not easily experience distress born of delusion (ignorance). The five faculties of his—the faculty of saddha (faith in Dhamma), the faculty of viriya (effort), the faculty of sati (mindfulness), the faculty of samadhi (to get to tranquility), the faculty of panna (wisdom)—are weak. Because of their weakness, he makes only slow progress on the Path, and takes a longer time to get to Nibbana. This is called comfortable practice with slow progress.
“And which is comfortable practice with fast progress? This is the case where a certain individual is by birth of not intensely sensual nature. He does not easily experience distress born of passion. OR, he is by birth of not intensely aggressive nature (quick to get angry). He does not easily experience distress born of this aggressive nature. OR he is normally not of an intensely ignorant nature. He does not easily experience distress born of delusion (ignorance). The five faculties of his—the faculty of saddha (faith in Dhamma), the faculty of viriya (effort), the faculty of sati (mindfulness), the faculty of samadhi (to get to tranquility), the faculty of panna (wisdom)—are strong. Because of their strength, he makes fast progress on the Path, and takes a shorter time to get to Nibbana. This is called comfortable practice with fast progress.
“These are the four modes of practice.”
My notes:
– One is born with a fixed set of five faculties. This basically depends on one’s progress made in previous births, and also the strength of the kusala kamma that led to this human bhava.- But one’s response to sense inputs or whether one has an aggressive nature, or whether one is “slow witted” seems to be independent of one’s five faculties.
Therefore, even for someone with “good” five faculties, may have “sensual, aggressive, and slow witted nature” (case 2 above). And someone with “bad” five faculties, may not have “sensual, aggressive, and slow witted nature” (case 3 above).
