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Inflib (Donna) said: “As one proceeds on the Path and comprehends, acts, speaks and thinks with the anicca (dukkha and anatta as well) nature, will it effect the kamma vipaka experienced in day-to-day life?”.

You may want to read the post, “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“.

Basically, some vipaka can be overcome, but not all. Even the Buddha could not overcome some. We had discussed this before, but I cannot locate that particular discussion.

Nibbana is about totally eliminating FUTURE suffering beyond this life: A Sotapanna would not be reborn in the apayas; a Sakadagami would not be reborn at or below human realm; An Anagami would be prevented from suffering in kama loka, so will not be reborn in kama loka; an Arahant will not be reborn anywhere in 31 realms. Any birth anywhere in the 31 realm will be subjected to suffering at some level.

A type of suffering that goes away completely for an Arahant in this life is those due to “samphassa ja vedana” (self-induced MENTAL suffering). It will be removed partially for other Nobles depending on how much “san” or defilements have been removed from their minds; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“. Even before magga phala, this could give rise to “niramisa sukha” at various levels.

If this does not explain, we can discuss any more remaining issues.

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In case someone missed the reply from Johnny today to the following question, please see his response above:

“How can attachment when it is through genuine and unselfish love for some one be of any negative or hindering effect to the giver IN ANY WAY whatsoever?”

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y not said: “I admit I am confused about this. In the case of Gatikata, would it be that he renounced Arahanthood ( where all attachment ceases) for the sake of caring for his parents, perhaps even into future lives? The question, at the very base of it, is: How can attachment when it is through genuine and unselfish love for some one be of any negative or hindering effect to the giver IN ANY WAY whatsoever?”

This is a good question. There are two aspects to this issue and I am glad that you brought it up.

1. On one hand, the need to “pay back previous debts” may come to the forefront of some people’s mind when this situation arises.
2. On the other hand, there are others, who don’t feel strongly that way (because most of their debts to the other person(s) in question have been paid off (even though those other people may still face a rough time if left alone by themselves.

In the above, I gave the example of Gatikara for the first.

There is another sutta relevant to the second case, which describes a situation where a husband leaves the family and becomes a bhikkhu. One day the wife comes to see him with the baby and blames him for leaving the child to herself and set the child by him and pretends to leave. She goes away from his sight and starts watching him to see whether he will take the child. The bhikkhu is unmoved, and she finally comes and takes the child away.
– So, in this case, the bhikkhu had totally removed any attachment to the family.

It is VERY IMPORTANT to realize that both thoughts process in the above two cases are AUTOMATIC, based on the gati of Gatikara and the bhikkhu. It is not that Gatikara forcefully made himself committed to his parents. Also, it is not that the bhikkhu took “hard line approach” and refused to go back to lay life to take care of the family.

The problem is that it is very hard for us to judge these situations from the outside. Human mind is very complex, and it is almost impossible for others to see what is going on in the mind of any given person.

It is interesting to note that Buddha praised the bhikkhu for the way he handled the situation. Of course a Buddha can read anyone’s mind and he knew that the bhikkhu COULD NOT go back and STAY a householder even if he tried to do that by force. His mindset had changed permanently. He had given up all attachments, and to his mind, there was no difference between his family and any other. Anyone who is not at or close to Arahanthood cannot even imagine that.

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@inflib (Donna): Yes. While we cannot do kamma in dreams, dreams can indicate one’s progress on the Path in a crude way.

Normally, one who making progress on the Path will be seeing less and less of frightening or scary dreams.

Other than that, it is probably not a good idea to use the types of dreams one sees to make an analysis of one’s progress.

Inflib said: “Although, I still have dreams that are mostly relationship type, but no homes, cars, or vacations/beautiful places or the like. This means I still have asavas for a relationship, right? “

Putting dreams aside, one could have relationships without asavas (lobha, dosa, moha). For example, relationship between a parent and a child are based on long-term relationships through previous births. A parent raising a child is paying back old debt, and when the child grows up the child may start paying back debt.
– The same thing can be said for friends, and even married couples. Long after the sexual relationship ends due to old age, many couples remain devoted each other.

Even when one attains magga phala, such feelings may remain. One’s actions may not involve anything other than fulfilling one’s responsibilities.
– From the Tipitaka there is a story about Gatikara, who was an Anagami. He stayed a lay person rather than becoming a bhikkhu, because he wanted to take care of his old parents.

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Dvesha is Sanskrit word, the Pali word for hate/angry is dosa.

In most of these situations, whether dosa arose in the mind of the person in question depends TOTALLY on that person. Some actions that may appear to be taken with dosa, may actually be due to compassion for all involved.

1. The individual making fun is likely to be acting with dosa or avijja (just having fun not realizing it is a bad thing to do).

– The host may get angry at that and not invite him in the future. But it is also possible that the sees that the individual is “bad company” for everyone, and that could be done with compassion.

2. Whether B committed the wrong doing or not, bringing that out in public could be done with dosa.

– But if A knows for sure that B had committed the wrong doing, and would like others to avoid B, then it could be done with compassion for others.
– It really depends on the mindset of A. In the language of Abhidhamma, the question is whether asobhana etasika or sobhana cetasika arise in the mind of A. It cannot be both at any given moment, and only that person would know.

3. Could be either way, as above.
4. The last one on raga is the same. It really depend on what kind of things are discussed. Just asking about Y’s family is a courtesy, as long as it does not get “out-of-hand” asking too many details. Again, it also depends on how close they are.

The bottom line is that only the person in question will truly know. We cannot judge by looking from outside.

By the way, avoiding “bad company” is a MUST to cultivate the Path. Making “good friends” is a must too. However, here “good/bad” are not in the mundane sense. These days, people who go drinking together or hunting together are assumed to be “good friends”. A truly good friend would be one who helps the other to stay away from such activities.

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You should read the first several (at least the first five) posts at:
“Historical Background“.

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These are rules for the bhikkhus, and not for the lay people, of course.

The reason for prohibiting damaging plants is described in a sutta, but I forget the sutta’s name. It is described how a bhikkhu cut down a tree to make a hut for himself or something like that. There are bhummatta devas (devas of the lowest deva realm that reside alongside us), and most have their residences (vimana) on trees.
– Of course, we cannot see them or their residences, so we don’t know which tress are “taken” by such devas. Anyway, this bhikkhu cut down that tree and the deva got upset and complained to the Buddha. That is when the Buddha made this vinaya rule for the bhikkus.
– Furthermore, there are numerous insects and microscopic living beings that are sustained by a tree. There could be many insects on a single leaf! All those will be harmed by cutting down a tree.

Seeds and raw meat: There are microscopic living beings living in seeds. We all have seen even larger insects in various kinds of grains. The same apply to raw meat too. If bhikkhus start cooking such items, those lives would be destroyed.

Basically, the idea is that a bhikkhu is supposed to be taken care by the lay disciples. Thus, there is no need to cut down trees or to cook grains and raw meat (or engage in many activities stated in that sutta).

A lay person would not be able to abide those two rules, since he/she may have to cut down trees for many purposes and need to cook grains and meat.

The main idea is to avoid as many actions as possible, that could harm living beings. But there are some things that even a bhikkhu cannot avoid. For example, we know that there are numerous microscopic beings in water, and when we heat water or even drink water, they will die. But there is no way to live without water!

I recommend this sutta to everyone. The English translation Akvan referred to is good enough, since it does not involve any deep concepts and only the moral standards for a bhikkhu. We, as lay people, can try to live by most of those rules too, except some like the two Akvan mentioned.

P.S. There is more information on this topic at, “Tuvaṭaka Sutta – 4.14. The Quick Way“.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Jittananto

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Embodied said: “that there’s something of my gandhabba in yours and vice-versa?”

Why do you need to make things so complicated? What does it have to do with a beginning? Please think carefully and formulate your question correctly. I am still not sure what your question is.

How can two gandhabbas overlap? Gandhabba is a lifestream, just like a brahma. The only difference in a human is that we have physical body with the gandhabba inside. A brahma only has a gandhabba or a mental body.

Embodied said: “But once achieved isn’t Nibbana an Absolute knowing?”

First think about “knowing”: That involves “thinking”. Thinking involves thoughts which means citta and cetasika. Those belong to this world of 31 realms.

Everything in the 31 realms have citta, cetasika, rupa (matter). Nibbana does not have ANY of those. It is useless to speculate what is in Nibbana.

We don’t know ANYTHING AT ALL about what is in Nibbana. All we know is that Nibbana exists and that it is OUTSIDE the 31 realms; see the posts in “Nibbana“.

I don’t have any idea how the initial question on “no discernible beginning” is connected to different Buddhas etc. Please formulate your questions carefully. It is a waste of time to try to understand what is meant in a question.

Please read about Nibbana before asking any more questions: “Nibbana“.

P.S. There is nothing special about a gandhabba. Any living being has a mental body or manomaya kaya. For a human or an animal, it is given a special name of gandhabba.

The manomaya kaya keep changing as one goes from bhava to bhava. In some brahma bhava, it is the only body. In other bhava there is a denser body associated with it.

If question is whether there was a first bhava in any realm, then it leads to the question: How did that manomaya kaya arise? For any living being, the Buddha did not see such a first.

A related question is: If there an infinite number beings at some earlier time, and there have been an infinite number of Buddhas who helped an infinite number of living beings to attain Nibbana, how come there are still an infinite number of beings left now? Modern mathematics confirms that infinity minus infinity is still infinity!
See: “Infinity – How Big Is It?“

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The principle of causation, which is the basis of scientific studies, says that an effect arises due to one or more causes. Things just don’t happen or “pop-up into existence” without a cause(s).

Therefore, by definition, there cannot be a “first cause”.

In creator-based religions, it is ASSUMED that the first cause is the Creator.
But that assumption itself is contradictory to the principle of causation. How did the Creator come into existence?

The Buddha declared what he experienced. He could look back at the past with an incredible speed, but could not see a “beginning”. That is why he just said that there is no discernible beginning: No matter how far back he looked, he could not see a “beginning”.

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Firewns said: “I have read somewhere that circumambulation clockwise around a stupa or Buddhist relic brings enormous merit to oneself.
Is it really a kusala kamma to do so, or merely a form of silabbata-paramaso?
Also, if it is a kusala kamma, will circumambulating anti-clockwise negate its merit and instead bring demerit upon oneself?”

It is always good to know how the key Pali terms originated (“pada nirukti”).

Kusala comes from “ku” + ”sala”, where “ku” refers to “kunu” or keles or defilements, and “sala” means “to get rid of”.

“akusala” is the opposite of “kusala”.
Therefore, an akusala kamma is an action that defiles or contaminates one’s mind. Any kusala kamma involves an action that involves removal of defilements from one’s mind.

Now it must be clear that circumambulation (walking) around a stupa or Buddhist relic is neither a kusala or an akusala kamma.

The word “punna” is related to joy; the Sinhala word “pina” or “pin” is associated with “pinaveema” or “making one’s heart joyful.

Therefore, a punna kamma is an action that makes one’s heart filled with joy. It is usually an action out of saddha (faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha). Such actions may not necessarily be kusala kamma, but some punna kamma are kusala kamma too.

For example, when one offers food to the bhikkhus (or even to a hungry person) with joy in heart, that is both a kusala kamma (giving which is the opposite of stealing), and also a punna kamma because one does with joy.

Circumambulation around a stupa or Buddhist relic (usually while reciting a gatha or Tisarana Vandana) is a punna kamma. In fact, it belongs to the same category as offering flowers and reciting pirith (paritta).

The key reason is that one’s mind becomes temporarily free of pancanivara (kamaccandha, vyapada, tina middha, uddacca kukkucca, and vicikicca) when doing a punna kamma. All those actions make one’s mind joyful and be receptive to deep Dhamma. It is good to do them before sitting down to listen to a desana.

Whether there is an effect for clockwise or counter- clockwise, I am not sure. If there is, it must be a small effect.

In fact, when one does mundane anapana (breath meditation), that could be a punna kamma, but NOT a kusala kamma. That is because it helps keep the mind focused on the breath and thus suppress pancanivarana temporarily. But, by itself, it does not remove any defilements.

April 28, 2018: More details in a new post: “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.

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Hi Johnny: There are so many misinterpretations in the texts that you quoted. I just don’t have time to go through them, so I will just point out a couple in order to illustrate the point that how bad Buddha Dhamma (per Tipitaka) has been misinterpreted.

For example: “Bhikkhus, develop concentration. One who is concentrated knows and sees the Four Noble Truths as they really are.”
– What they translate as “concentration” is the Pali word “sati”. The closest transaltion of “sati” is probably “mindset”. That becomes clear when you understand what is meant by “samma sati” (“san” +”ma” means to remove “san” or defilements). – Thus, samma sati is the mindset needed to remove defilements from the mind, which is basically a comprehension of Tilakkhana.

Another is: “When concentration improves, the body disappears. One sees just a block of four elements; one’s whole body becomes just a block of four elements. One does not see a face, a hand, or a leg.”
– That is just pure fiction. Didn’t the Buddha (or all those Arahants) see and recognize people?

Same thing with the statement, ““Whether one regards mountains, trees, flowers, living things, or non-living things, everything becomes the same – nothing more than tiny particles that constantly arise and perish.”

By the way, who made these statements (or translations)? You should always provide a link to the source.

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y not said: “.. put another way,say he does attain the Sakadagami stage in that third Jati, will he still have to come back here until the human Bhava is exhausted before he ‘appears’ in a Deva realm?”

Bhava could be broken while in the middle of it.
– First is to realize that if one attains Arahanthood, no more birth in any realm when the current human physical body dies.
– If one attains the Sakadagami stage, the next birth would NOT be in the human realm, but in the deva realm.
– Even when one attains an anariya jhana, one’s next birth would be in a brahma realm. But of course, one would come back to the human realm in the future, and may even be reborn in the apayas.
– If a Sotapanna attains an Ariya jhana, he/she will be born in a brahma realm and WILL NOT come back to human realm or even deva realm.

So, there are various situations that one can analyze. It may take some time for all this to become clear. One needs to keep reading relevant posts (and keep contemplating, not just reading).

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Thanks, Donna, for various suggestions for improvements.

I saw that I could remove the option for a user to leave log of different edits. I have removed that option. For all: Please keep in mind that a given post can be edited only within an hour of posting.

Thank you, Donna, also for the offer to make donations. That is not necessary, but I appreciate your kindness. You have helped in many ways, including the suggestion above.

The best way to contribute to the efforts of this website is to “spread the Pure Dhamma” to as many as possible, but only to those whom you know could be interested in Buddha Dhamma.

[Lal]

What is seela (sila) or moral conduct?

1. When one becomes a Sotapanna, two important things happens to ones’ mind:

– One becomes “sanditthiko” or “san” + “ditthiko” or “one who has seen “san” to some extent (enough to avoid apayagami citta from automatically arising under ANY circumstance).
– Because of that now one can avoid worst defilements that could make one eligible to be born in the apayas. Then one is said to have attained “sanvara”, or “san” + “vara”, meaning “warding off san” or “ability to stay away from san”. Sanvara in both Pali and Sinhala therefore, mean “being moral because one has seen san”.
– This is why the Buddha said, “sanvaratttena seelan” or “one becomes moral by removing “san” or defilements”. To put it another way, this means staying away from dasa akusala.

2. This is why “san” is such a key word; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“.

– The ability to see “san” (defilements of greed, hate, ignorance that come to one’s mind) increases significantly when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana, i.e., at the Sotapanna stage.

3. Of course, these are only the first stages of “sanditthiko” and “sanvara” attained at the Sotapanna stage. One gets to higher magga phala, will “see san” even better (sanditthiko), and thus become more moral or “sanvara”.

– When one gets to the Arahant stage, one has become fully “sanditthiko” and one is at the highest possible moral standards.

4. Today, people are judged by their outward appearances. If one talks slowly, walks slowly, one is ASSUMED to have high moral standards.

– On the other hand, a Sotapanna may run if needed, may even talk a bit harshly (not with malice), to get a point across to someone who “is slow to get it”, etc.
– I know people who write nice words, but I can sense their malice in the way they write.

5. Anyway, this is the basic idea. As one makes progress on the Ariya Path, one is AUTOMATICALLY prevented from doing dasa akusala, first at strong levels (capable of leading to births in the apayas) at the Sotapanna stage; then eventually rebirth at any realm in this world at the Arahant stage. Thus, only an Arahant will have “perfect sila“.
   – Of course, one MUST forcefully stay away from any dasa akusala when one realizes one is about to do one. If one realizes that one just did such an act, one must make a determination to avoid it next time. That is how one makes progress.
   – Feel free to ask more questions if further clarifications are needed.

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y not said:”My post does not show. It disappeared (to me, at least) after I had edited to correct the format. I am surprised somewhat that it was there for you to read.”

You have not read the following WARNING I had put out:

March 23, 2018: Do not try to edit posts older than an hour! It will get DELETED. Just make a new reply with what you want to revise.

This is the way the bb Press software (that runs this discussion forum) is setup. Please keep this in mind.

I was occupied most of yesterday. I will try to comment today or tomorrow. Y not can post his comment again if he wants to.

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