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The link that you provided goes to “59. Anattalakkhaṇasutta”.
On the sutta list under Khandha Saṃyutta at Sutta Central, it is also listed as “Pañcavaggiya [Anattalakkhaṇa]”.
So, it could be also listed as Pañcavaggiya Sutta in some places. But this is a very famous sutta, which I had always known as the Anatta Lakkhana Sutta. I believe this is the sutta that Ven. Sariputta delivered to explain in detail the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. It explains the concept of anatta.
Akvan said: “In most places aniccha, dukka, anaththa is referred to as the thilakkana, and you refer to it as three marks of existence.”
I have used both “three characteristics of nature” and “three marks of existence” to translate the Pali word Tilakkhana to English. If you look at popular English translations, people have used both those translations.
I also use just Tilakkhana at many places without translating too. That is the best, but one who is not familiar with the Pali word may get stuck. So, I have to use those common English translations too.
Akvan said: “However, in most sutta’s aniccha, dukka, anaththa are referred to as sanna”. and “But can you share any sutta’s that refer to aniccha, dukka, anaththa as lakkana?”
Different suttas have used both those terms. For example, Sabbasava sutta used “anicca sanna“. Anattalakkhana Sutta has “anatta lakkhana” in the title itself.
We should not get hang up on words. As you said:”I know that talking about whether it is a lakkana or a sanna will have no difference to the understanding of aniccha, dukka and anaththa”. That is exactly right. One just need to comprehend what is meant. Understanding is deeper than just description by words. On the other hand we have to use words to convey the idea to others. As long as the idea gets across that is fine.
Key Pali words like anicca and anatta cannot be translated word to word. They could be described in several (related) ways.
This is why my description of anicca or anatta may vary somewhat from post to post. But they are all inter-consistent.
Akvan said: “This corresponds with the Kama Sutta, where it is mentioned that kama is suppressed while in the first jhana upto nevasanna na sanna.”
It would be helpful if you provide the link to the sutta, and the verse (in Pali or English).
I do not see any such description in Kāma Sutta (Snp 4.1).
Please provide the link to the sutta, and the verse (in Pali or English) regarding other questions too. That will save me a lot of time scanning through a sutta and trying to find the relevant verse.
Siebe said: “What happens with an arahant after dying?”
You can ask the same question in many ways. But you get the same answer from the Buddha, per Tipitaka. The same thing happens to an Arahant, as to what the Buddha said what will happen to him.
I am copying my reply to you in the “The Infinity problem – BIG doubt” topic:
In his very first desana, the Buddha clearly stated that in order to stop all future suffering, the goal of any person should be what he had attained. Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11): “..Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”
Translation: “..The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence for me.”.
How more clear can one be?
And there are many more suttas stating this clearly.The concept of Nibbana has been explained in many posts, including in the subsection: “Nibbana“,and in the post, “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“.
Answers to your questions can be found in those posts and elsewhere in many posts. We also discussed these, over and over, under different topics in this forum.
You do need to stop pushing your philosophical ideas at this forum. That takes the focus away from useful discussions. I am going to remove you as a forum participant if you post again like this without citing evidence from the Tipitaka. If you have evidence to the contrary, you can state that and provide evidence from the Tipitaka.
There is only one reliable source of Buddha Dhamma, and that is the Tipitaka. That is the sole basis for this website, and therefore, for the discussions at this forum.
P.S. I do understand that “stopping rebirth” or “stopping existence” could be an unsettling thought for many people. That is the ultimate goal, but one who is starting on the Path (even a Sotapanna) should not contemplate on that. One could start at the stage where one does not even believe in rebirth. I have emphasized this point at the “Living Dhamma” section, and many other posts throughout the website.
I also recommend listening to the discourse in, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
I think everyone has agreed that it is better to discuss other more important issues.
However, it has been a useful discussion, and I thank C. Saket for bringing it up for discussion.
I am closing this topic. I can re-open it if someone has an important, relevant issue to bring up on the topic. Please send me an email at [email protected].
P.S. I updated the post, “The Infinity Problem in Buddhism” on August 13, 2022.
These questions are answered in a series of 3 posts:
Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga PhalaI think the second post gives those references, but it is good idea to read all three to get a good idea.
I have removed the word “automatically” from the original post you referred to. Yes. It is confusing . Thanks.
Siebe said: “ The idea that an arahant or tathagata exist after death (parinibbana) is, as far as i know, not answered with a “Yes” or “No”..”.
In his first desana, the Buddha clearly stated the goal of Buddha Dhamma. Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11): “..Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”
Translation: “..The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence for me.”.
How more clear can one be?
And there are many more suttas stating this clearly.You need to stop pushing your philosophical ideas at this forum. That takes the focus away from useful discussions. I am going to delete posts like this in the future. If you have evidence to the contrary, you can state that and provide evidence from the Tipitaka.
There is only one reliable source of Buddha Dhamma, and that is the Tipitaka. That is the sole basis for this website, and therefore, for the discussions at this forum.
P.S. I do understand that “stopping rebirth” or “stopping existence” could be an unsettling thought for many people. That is the ultimate goal, but one who is starting on the Path (even a Sotapanna) should not contemplate on that. One could start at the stage where one does not even believe in rebirth. I have emphasized this point at the “Living Dhamma” section, and many other posts throughout the website.
I also recommend listening to the discourse in, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
Akvan quoted the “Purisagati Sutta (AN 7.55)” and said, “So, it doesn’t make sense that a antaraparinibbai will be a human gandhabba.”
Thanks for pointing out that sutta. I was not aware of it, but it does describe the antaraparibbayi state, and in addition, that there are 7 types of antaraparinibbayi Noble persons.
1.There are 10 samyojana (sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, kama raga, patigha, rupa raga, arupa raga, mana, uddacca, avijja). These are the bonds that bind one to the samsara.
Out of these, three (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) can bring future rebirths (i.e., grasping a NEW bhava, at the cuti-patisandhi moment). They are called uppati patilabhi sampyojana.
The other 7 are called bhava patilabhi samyojana. That means until those are removed, one is not released from a bhava.
2.There are 7 anusaya (ditthi, vicikicca, kama raga, patigha, bhava raga, mana, avijja).
Here bhavaraga anusaya is basically the “desire to live” regardless of the which bhava one is in. Mana, bhavaraga, and avijja are the last ones removed. Of course they keep reducing all through the other stages of Nibbana.
One is not fully released (parinaibbana) until all seven are removed.
3. Now the above sutta is about those Noble persons that have removed the three uppatti patilabhi samyojana, in addition to sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, and patigha.
The sutta specifically says, orambhagiya samyojana (the first five) have been removed. So, one is free of kama loka.
In addition, those Ariyas have removed rupa raga and arupa raga. Therefore, that person cannot grasp a NEW bhava in kama loka, rupa loka, or arupa loka.
However, one is not yet an Arahant because three samyojanas are still left: mana, uddacca, avijja. And one has three anusaya also left (not completely removed): , bhava raga, mana, avijja, as stated in the sutta.
4. Therefore, when the physical body of such a person dies, the gandhabba caomes out and is “stuck” in that state. He/she cannot grasp a new bhava, but cannot attain Arahanthood since other defilements are left.
That is why he/she will stay in that gandhabba state until the kammic energy for the human bhava that he/she grasped at the last cuti-patisandhi moment runs out.
5. The Waharaka Thero had told others that he had removed all three uppatti patilabhi samyojana, but had not removed others like mana and avijja fully.
This is why it was suspected that he would have attained (one of) the antaraparinibbana state described in this sutta.
However, it is also possible that he removed all remaining defilements close to the dying moment and attained the full Nibbana (parinibbana). The fact that his “dhatu” were recovered points to the latter conclusion.
6. Finally, the sutta mentions “anupadaparinibbana” state, which is the state an Arahant is at until his/her physical body dies; “anupada” means “close behind”. He/she has completed all requirements and will attain “full Nibbana” when the physical body dies. Gandhabba will not survive without that physical body.
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Siebe said: “I ask this, because how can the unailing state, the deathless, the unconditioned etc. be a refuge when this is only an object of a magga citta?”.
The therms in those suttas are synonyms for ultimate Nibbana, that an Arahant has attained.
One does not get to Nibbana by taking taking Nibbana as the thought object. One gets to Nibbana by totally removing all defilements from one’s mind.
One could cultivate Ariya jhana by taking the level of Nibbana that one has experienced as the thought object. For example, a Sotapanna can get to Ariya jhana by keeping the mind of the level of release (cooling down) he/she has experienced: “Etan santan etan panitan…”.
Yes. This is something that is difficult to understand for people those who are new to Buddha Dhamma. While there are many myths associated with Buddha Dhamma (i.e., ability to bring in rain with prayers, etc), there are some phenomena like this that are genuine.
When one becomes an Arahant, there are some drastic changes that happens in one’s physical body, in addition to those in the mind. For example, one’s bones get crystallized and can survive thousands of years. These are called “dhatu”. Buddha’s dhatu survive (in open caskets), and are being worshipped even today. They are supposed to survive until the end of Gotama Buddha’s Buddha Sasana (Ministry), which is supposed to last 2500 years more.
The reason that an Arahant‘s body cannot stay alive as a “householder” is similar to the reason that an Arahant will not be reborn even if more kammic energy for the human bhava is left. The mindset of an Arahant cannot be “born” with the body of a gandhabba. Why an Arahant needs to become a bhikkhu(ni) is a bit more complex. But becoming a bhikkhu(ni) makes a difference.
However, becoming an Arahant will not happen accidentally, so one does not need to worry. One WILL know if that happens. It is very difficult to attain.
Long before that one would become an Anagami, and that is not easy either. It should be relatively easy to verify whether one has become an Anagami. One would have lost all sensual cravings (for food, music, scents, any person or anything including one’s possessions like money, houses, properties, and sex). So, there will be many drastic changes in one’s mindset as well as in one’s body well before one gets to the Arahant stage.
Here is the full “Ānisaṃsasutta (AN 6.97)“:
“Chayime, bhikkhave, ānisaṃsā sotā¬patti¬phala¬sacchi¬kiriyāya. Katame cha? Saddham¬ma¬niyato hoti, apari¬hāna¬dhammo hoti, ¬pariyan¬ta¬katassa dukkhaṃ hoti, asādhāraṇena ñāṇena samannāgato hoti, hetu cassa sudiṭṭho, hetusamuppannā ca dhammā. Ime kho, bhikkhave, cha ānisaṃsā sotā-patti¬phala¬sacchi¬kiriyāyā”ti.Translated: “Bhikkhus, there are these six rewards (anisamsa) in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma (Saddhamma). One is not never going to lose that grasp of Saddhamma. One has grasped what dukkha is. One is endowed with knowledge that is not known to normal humans (asādhāraṇena ñāṇena). One sees true causes (for suffering), one comprehends causally-originated (i.e., paticca samuppanna) phenomena.
“These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry.”These are discussed at “Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna“.
Yes. A Sotapanna has seen the unconditioned (Nibbana), element. That is what the above sutta says.
One sees the unconditioned element (Nibbana) when one clearly sees how conditioned phenomena arise due to causes. Again, seeing does not mean one has completed the Path. One basically “sees” what is path is. Now one has to follow the Path.
But one is released from the apayas, because the causes for papa kamma or worst of the dasa akusala to arise have been removed from one’s mind just due that vision (Samma Ditthi).
@Siebe: Words like sakkaya ditthi and anicca have several (but related) meanings. I may discuss just one aspect relevant to the context of the discussion. There are other ways describe sakkaya ditthi.
This is why the Buddha said that different people may describe the Sotapanna stage in different ways. I have discussed this before, under another topic.
@Siebe: The following is something that I try to emphasize in the “Living Dhamma” section. Let me try to give an analogy.
One can read about how to do a heart transplant. The basic idea is simple: One needs to disconnect the failing heart and replace that with a healthy heart from a donor who has just died in an accident.
One may even learn intricate details involved, and spend a lot of time reading about the procedures involved, etc. However, unless one goes through a series of time-consuming steps (high school, college, couple of years into medical school), and THEN practice on dead bodies first and then finally assist in several live operations, one will NOT get to be a heart surgeon.
The point is that BECOMING a heart surgeon is much more than reading (and even understanding fairly well) what is involved.
Actually getting rid of the “sense of me” (asmi mana) is unimaginaginably difficult. The Buddha said he would have the same mindset about someone who is cutting off his right arm, as towards another who is massaging his left arm reverently.
Getting rid of sakkaya ditthi is not easy either, but it is way below asmi mana. I am not going to repeat what I have said many times under several topics. Anyone can go back and read them.
The point is that Mahayanists (and even some Theravadins) believe that just reading about the “theory” is enough to get rid of “self identity”. Such people meditate for years saying to themselves “there is no me”, “there is no self”, or something to that effect. They get into intellectual debates about “self” and discuss using very sophisticated terms, but have no idea of how to get there.
If one has truly removed asmi mana, one has given up ALL worldly desires, and will willingly give away his/her possessions to the needy. Can any of those mentioned above willingly give away their possessions (one’s house, car, etc)? They are just making fools out of themselves. I am sorry to use some harsh language, but on occasion Buddha himself called some monks “fools” (“mogha purisa”) in order to get a point across.
Long before one gets to removing asmi mana, one needs to remove the cravings for sense pleasures; in fact, even a Sotapanna (who has removed sakkaya ditthi) has not achieved that; that is achieved at the Anagami stage. Has any of those people mentioned above have gotten rid of the desire for even sense pleasures?
One starts with Samma Ditthi (by getting a glimpse of Tilakkhana and thereby removing sakkaya dithi).
Then one thinks (Samma Sankappa), speaks (Samma Vaca), acts (Samma Kammanta), make an effort (Samma Vayama), live one’s life that way (Samma Ajiva), and then gets to Samma Sati (the mindset) and Samma Samadhi (cooled mind). Two more steps are actually involved to becomes an Arahant: Samma Nana (wisdom by removing avijja completely) and finally Samma Vimutti (total release from this world). Asmi mana is removed AFTER one has followed the Noble Path as above.
“Living Dhamma” section starts off with simple concepts. But there are only a few who can really understand the last subsection on nama rupa. Of course there could be Arahants who have removed even asmi mana; the Buddha said the world is not devoid of Arahants until the Buddha Sasana comes to an end). All others will need to start somewhere in between. Also, the “Living Dhamma” section is only a guide. One will have to work hard/practice to fill in any gaps. I keep adding posts as I have time.
I KNOW that I have removed sakkaya ditthi. I also know that I have NOT removed asmi mana.
@Siebe: Everyone at this forum has wanted to help you. You need to go over all those comments and see for yourself. But there is a limit as to how much we can repeat ourselves.
This is not a therapy forum. I certainly do not want to console anyone by going against the truth. The real meaning of “musavada” is not just lying (“musa” is incorrect +”vada” is arguments). It means presenting untruth (adhamma) as truth (dhamma).
By the way, adhamma are dasa akusala and dhamma are dasa kusala (abstaining from dasa akusala). The key here is that micca ditthi is the worst of the dasa akusala. Micca ditthi can be removed only by learning true dhamma AND by actually practicing (book knowledge is not enough).
Real compassion is not to keep someone happy by engaging in useless back and forth, but by trying to present the true teachings of the Buddha per Tipitaka. Any issue is to be decided by the Tipitaka, and that has been followed in every question put forth at the forum. Of course, my interpretation of a certain concept could be wrong. I am willing, and I look forward to, discuss such issues if proof is provided from the Tipitaka.
Just saying what one believes to be true, without providing evidence from the Tipitaka, is not going to benefit anyone. Please do not quote Mahāyāna or the commentaries like Visuddhimagga at this forum. I believe that is a waste of time and I have explained why in several posts. If anyone can provide contrary arguments to any specific point in those posts, they can ask questions by referring to the post and the specific bullet # in that post.
Of course, each person should decide for him/herself what is to be believed. But if those beliefs do not match the Tipitaka, no point in repeating such arguments (after it is explained why they do not match the Tipitaka). I am going to remove any unnecessary comments in the future, but will be happy to answer any legitimate questions.
P.S. I just posted a comment at “sakkaya ditthi and asmi mana” to try to clarify one more time.
Thank you for the request, vilaskadival.
I have been working on a possible desana or two on Tilakkhana. Hope to get one out in a week or so.
I need to start on another project that I have been postponing for almost two years. So, it may not be possible to do one on those suttas in the immediate term. But there are posts on them in the “Sutta Interpretations” section.
