[sybe07]

What makes somebody really a sotapanna? What kind of understanding has a sotapanna? AN6.97 says one has knowledge not shared with others.

I learned from reading texts of Nina van Gorkom on Abhidhamma treatises that the magga citta has the unconditioned element, Nibbana, as its object.

So it seems reasonable that this is also the distinctive knowledge of a sotapanna, Nibbana, the unconditioned element.

Would appreciate comment

Siebe

[Lal]

Here is the full “Ānisaṃsasutta (AN 6.97)“:
“Chayime, bhikkhave, ānisaṃsā sotā¬patti¬phala¬sacchi¬kiriyāya. Katame cha? Saddham¬ma¬niyato hoti, apari¬hāna¬dhammo hoti, ¬pariyan¬ta¬katassa dukkhaṃ hoti, asādhāraṇena ñāṇena samannāgato hoti, hetu cassa sudiṭṭho, hetusamuppannā ca dhammā. Ime kho, bhikkhave, cha ānisaṃsā sotā-patti¬phala¬sacchi¬kiriyāyā”ti.

Translated: “Bhikkhus, there are these six rewards (anisamsa) in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma (Saddhamma). One is not never going to lose that grasp of Saddhamma. One has grasped what dukkha is. One is endowed with knowledge that is not known to normal humans (asādhāraṇena ñāṇena). One sees true causes (for suffering), one comprehends causally-originated (i.e., paticca samuppanna) phenomena.
“These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry.”

These are discussed at “Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna“.

Yes. A Sotapanna has seen the unconditioned (Nibbana), element. That is what the above sutta says.

One sees the unconditioned element (Nibbana) when one clearly sees how conditioned phenomena arise due to causes. Again, seeing does not mean one has completed the Path. One basically “sees” what is path is. Now one has to follow the Path.

But one is released from the apayas, because the causes for papa kamma or worst of the dasa akusala to arise have been removed from one’s mind just due that vision (Samma Ditthi).

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal.

The unconditioned element is in sutta’s (SN43.14-43, translation Bodhi) also called: the far shore…the subtle…the very difficult to see…the unaging…the stable…the undisintegrating…the unnanifesting…the unproliferated…the peaceful…the deathless…the sublime…the auspicious…the secure…the destruction of craving…the wonderful… the amazing…the unailing…the unailing state… Nibbana…the unafflicted…dispassion…purity…freedom…
the unadhesive…the island… the shelter… the asylum … the refuge”

And in SN43.13 it is called the uninclined.

If one sees the deathless, Nibbana, the refuge, does one than at the same time see this is in fact the true identity of us, or, in other words, the nature of mind?

I ask this, because how can the unailing state, the deathless, the unconditioned etc. be a refuge when this is only an object of a magga citta?

How can any (sense) object of a citta ever function as a refuge? How can Nibbana be a object of a citta and be a refuge?

Siebe

. How do you understand this?

[Lal]

Siebe said: “I ask this, because how can the unailing state, the deathless, the unconditioned etc. be a refuge when this is only an object of a magga citta?”.

The therms in those suttas are synonyms for ultimate Nibbana, that an Arahant has attained.

One does not get to Nibbana by taking taking Nibbana as the thought object. One gets to Nibbana by totally removing all defilements from one’s mind.

One could cultivate Ariya jhana by taking the level of Nibbana that one has experienced as the thought object. For example, a Sotapanna can get to Ariya jhana by keeping the mind of the level of release (cooling down) he/she has experienced: “Etan santan etan panitan…”.

[Tobias G]

Hello Siebe,
the understanding of a Sotapanna as per Tipitaka is mentioned above by Lal (AN 6.97).
I want to add that a Sotapanna is a sanditthiko (one who can see “San”). Without effort I can clearly “see” other people engaging in san-activities and I feel not the slightest urge to do that too.

I really do not want to offend you. When I look at your comments in this forum, you often use the term “believe” or “belief”. You like to chat about concepts/ideas. But do you contemplate on Dhamma and grasp the meaning? Because this is what I did and I reached stream entry in that way. There is no need to “know” all the finest details given in the Tipitaka. It is sufficient to learn the “big picture” and to contemplate on that, incl. the Tilakkhana. This will bring one to samma ditthi and magga phala, there is no way out.

[Anonymous]

I have heard that for eg , The Load Budhdha(Gauthama) was Bodhisathva in his previous lives and was as Jhothipala Manawaka at the time of the Lord Buddha “Kassapa” . He became a monk and delivered Buddhdharma for many of the others person who were there at Kassapa Budhdha Shasana, he had good knowledge
If that is so i really can’t undestand what actually prevent him at least became sothapana during that time ? Because if someone has good undestanding about dhamma it happens because some one analize dhamma very well , I can’t understand how it prevents learning the big picture of nibbana .
It’s hard for me to understand how one can prevent from knowing the following

” One is certain of the true Dhamma (Saddhamma). One is not never going to lose that grasp of Saddhamma. One has grasped what dukkha is. One is endowed with knowledge that is not known to normal humans (asādhāraṇena ñāṇena). One sees true causes (for suffering), one comprehends causally-originated (i.e., paticca samuppanna) phenomena.”

[Anonymous]

I’m asking this because i sometimes feel sothpanna is not knowing the big picture of Nibbana if so what is missing , what it actually means ? how we identifies true sothapanna stage

[Lal]

Welcome to the forum, kanhlk!

One becomes a Sotapanna by comprehending the real nature of this world of 31 realms (Tilakkhana) by LEARNING that from an Ariya (Noble Person) who himself learnt from such a person. That lineage can be traced back the Buddha Gotama.

On the other hand, one becomes a Buddha by DISCOVERING the real nature of this world by himself.

Once one becomes a Sotapanna, there is no need to figure out the real nature of this world himself. Thus, by definition, a Sotapnna (or one with higher magga phala) CANNOT become a Buddha.

You said: “Jotipala became a monk and delivered Buddhdharma for many of the others person who were there at Kassapa Budhdha Shasana, he had good knowledge
If that is so i really can’t undestand what actually prevent him at least became sothapana during that time ?”
As pointed out above, IF Jotipala attained the Sotapanna stage, he would not be able become a Buddha. Furthermore, one who is making “paramita” to become a Buddha will not “accidentally” or otherwise attain any magga phala on the way.

You also asked how one can identify the true Sotapanna stage. There are many posts at the site on that. Do a Search using the Search box at top right with “Sotapanna” and you will get many relevant posts. But here is one: “How Does One Know whether the Sotapanna Stage is Reached?“.

[Author]

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