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y not said: “.. My mind goes: If there was any hatred, it was in him/her. Rather I feel compassion for him/her having this fire of hatred for me, if he/she still has it.”
Exactly. One can only work to cleanse one’s own mind. If each person does that, this world will be a much better place for everyone.
@y not: I already deleted your extra post.
I don’t think any of you are allowed to delete published posts. Just make sure everything is good before hitting the submit button.
I just received the following email from Siebe (some of you may remember Siebe). He and I still correspond via email.
Hi Lal,
As a reaction on a forum topic.
Probably you know, but MN20 deals with how to anticipate on unwholesome thoughts.
It describes 5 methods.
- direct the mind to another sign, a sign which is connected with wholesome emotions, such as the sign of unattractiveness while lust arises or a sign of danger in the case of sensual pleasure.
Unwholesome thoughts arise especially in mind directed to signs like ‘attractive’, ‘no danger’, beautifull, in control, etc. - do unwholesome thought still arise then one must contemplate on the danger of such thoughts
- if they still keep arising one must give them no attention, just ignore them
- if they still keep arising or are still present one must try to calm down the thought-formation process.
it is like wondering why one is in such a hurry and slow down oneself, slow down the thought formations - If this still does not work one has to forcefully suppress them and conquer bad thoughts with good mind like a strong man would do with a weaker man.
kind regards,
SiebeThank you, Siebe. It is a good reference and a decent translation is at:
“Vitakkasanthana Sutta: The Relaxation of Thoughts“y not said: “When I am observing mindfulness no thoughts of greed, hate or anger arise at all as far as I remember. There is no fight going on at any time.”
Later on, “………the web page just disappeared and I was greeted with an ‘An snap’just when I hit submit (my last post)
I was V EEEEEEEEEE RY angry!!!!”
This is exactly what I am talking about. It is EASY to have a peaceful mindset when one is in formal meditation. Anusaya is suppressed.
But when something drastic happens (as with the difficulty in posting), that anusaya comes to the surface. Depending on the situation, it could be greed/lust, anger, or just vicikicca (not sure how to respond and do something foolish).
We need to pay more attention to the second situation and control anger at that time. That is real Satipatthana and Anapana.
When we learn to control such outbursts, the frequency of occurrence of such events will gradually decrease. That is the whole point.
Even while in meditation, one can get all such defiled thoughts creeping to the mind, and one MUST not let them continue. Those are conscious defiled thoughts (bad vaci sankhara).
In both cases, one must think about the bad consequences of keeping such thoughts. That is the best way to get rid of them.
I hope y not will not be offended by my remarks. I am making these forceful comments out of compassion to make a difference for everyone.
Embodied said: The best way for me to learn better is to ask you :how do you apply satipatanna in your life moment to moment ? Since you wake up til you go to bed?
- Satipatthana basically means “keeping the mind focused on the task at hand”.
- When I drive, I concentrate on driving, not thinking about anything else.
- When I write do scientific work, I concentrate on that subject.
- When I do house work or eat, I am focused on getting those things done.
Those things normally do not involve defiled thoughts or dasa akusala, but if they do I will become aware of that. - However, when I deal with people or when I meditate, I am ALWAYS on the lookout for any defiled thoughts arising in mind. This is when I do Anapana.
- Part of Anapana involves cultivating moral thoughts and learning Dhamma (“ana” or “taking in”).
- Equally important second part of Anapana is forcibly suppressing defiled thoughts, speech, and actions (that is the “apana” or removal part of “anapana” or “ana” + “apana”).
- Well before we can understand deep Dhamma concepts, we need to cleanse our minds of dasa akusala. They keep popping up, sometimes unexpectedly. Such defiled thoughts keep popping up because we have a reservoir of them (called anusaya) in our minds. Our gati are closely related to those anusaya.
- These dasa akusala make our minds “burn”. Getting rid of them lead to “cooling down” of the mind and to niramisa sukha. Then it becomes easier to understand deeper Dhamma concepts like anicca, which belongs to the “ana” part of “Anapana”.
- Cleansing the mind is a step-by-step process, and Anapana is essentially how one does it.
- I don’t know how many of you have read the “Bhavana (Maditation)” or the first few subsections of the “Living Dhamma” section. I really hope you have done so, in order to get this IMPORTANT FOUNDATION established.
So, that is what I do all day long. Focus on the task at hand, and try to do Anapana whenever possible AND appropriate.
Embodies said: “I don’t repress the thought, i accept it/observe while being subliminally aware of it’s intrinsic wrongness and i replace it by a positive attitude.”
I don’t think that statement makes sense.
If you accept an angry thought, how do you replace it by a positive attitude?
Aren’t you replacing the angry thought with a positive thought?
I am jut wondering. Do you all get any thoughts of greed/lust or anger while meditating or just at any time?
What do you do in such instances?
For example, suppose a thought comes to the mind about a person who insulted you or did some wrong to you. What do you do?
y not said: “ In Ariya Metta Bhavana, how is the receiver benefitted? IS there a receiver, receivers? Here, the loving-kindness, the Metta, wells up in the one doing the Bhavana,the ‘state of overall well-being and oneness’ and all the positive and beneficial effects of it would all appear to be for the meditator. Or is it otherwise? Or, again, is it like I say AND also otherwise?”
The transmitter is the mana indriya of the sender, and the receiver is the mana indriya of the one who is benefiting. For those who need more information, see #9 of: “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“, and the posts referred there.
Modern day radio signals can be a good analogy. When one speaks, that energy is converted to an electromagnetic signal (wave) at the microphone, and that is transferred over a long distance. At the receiving end, there must be a receiver set to match the frequency of the incoming signal (otherwise, the signal would not be received). Then that signal is again converted back to a sound wave and is heard there.
When we CONSCIOUSLY think (vaci sankhara, i.e, whether spoken out loud or just talking to oneself), the javana power emits energy from the mana indriya. That energy can transmit to “ten thousand world systems” like ours.
Then it can be received by any being in that range WITH THE RIGHT MINDSET. That means, that being must have the “samanantara” to receive that signal and to benefit from it; see, “Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya“.
This is a complex process, but that is the gist of it.
By the way, that is how one (with abhinna power or punna iddhi) communicates with other beings.
y not said: “Crudely stated, Metta Bhavana WOULD appear to be selfish.”
When one gets to a certain stage, and realizes the dangers of the rebirth process, it is done automatically. One can see how much danger one has avoided, and one would want that for all beings, not just close relatives/friends or even just humans, but for ALL beings. It develops gradually.
“Dukkhan bhayattena” (“dukkha characteristic because it is frightening”) means when one truly comprehends dukkha, one will really see the dangers and will see how scary it is to have future births. This is realized in stages as one makes progress: first dangers in the apayas, then in the kama loka, and then anywhere in the 31 realms (well into the Anagami stage).
P.S. However, we should not focus on the suffering. We need to realize that it is the assada or the CRAVING FOR sense pleasures that are really the ROOT CAUSE of suffering. This is the hardest part to understand; see, “Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana“.
I hope I am not dumping too many things at once. But, I want to emphasize that one should not get hung up on contemplating on suffering. The Buddha pointed out the truth of suffering (that it exists), but more importantly, he showed the way to stop it from arising. And that is to see the dangers of sense pleasures. First step is to see the dangers in EXCESS sense pleasures.
Inflib (Donna) said: “As one proceeds on the Path and comprehends, acts, speaks and thinks with the anicca (dukkha and anatta as well) nature, will it effect the kamma vipaka experienced in day-to-day life?”.
You may want to read the post, “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“.
Basically, some vipaka can be overcome, but not all. Even the Buddha could not overcome some. We had discussed this before, but I cannot locate that particular discussion.
Nibbana is about totally eliminating FUTURE suffering beyond this life: A Sotapanna would not be reborn in the apayas; a Sakadagami would not be reborn at or below human realm; An Anagami would be prevented from suffering in kama loka, so will not be reborn in kama loka; an Arahant will not be reborn anywhere in 31 realms. Any birth anywhere in the 31 realm will be subjected to suffering at some level.
A type of suffering that goes away completely for an Arahant in this life is those due to “samphassa ja vedana” (self-induced MENTAL suffering). It will be removed partially for other Nobles depending on how much “san” or defilements have been removed from their minds; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“. Even before magga phala, this could give rise to “niramisa sukha” at various levels.
If this does not explain, we can discuss any more remaining issues.
In case someone missed the reply from Johnny today to the following question, please see his response above:
“How can attachment when it is through genuine and unselfish love for some one be of any negative or hindering effect to the giver IN ANY WAY whatsoever?”
y not said: “I admit I am confused about this. In the case of Gatikata, would it be that he renounced Arahanthood ( where all attachment ceases) for the sake of caring for his parents, perhaps even into future lives? The question, at the very base of it, is: How can attachment when it is through genuine and unselfish love for some one be of any negative or hindering effect to the giver IN ANY WAY whatsoever?”
This is a good question. There are two aspects to this issue and I am glad that you brought it up.
- On one hand, the need to “pay back previous debts” may come to the forefront of some people’s mind when this situation arises.
- On the other hand, there are others, who don’t feel strongly that way (because most of their debts to the other person(s) in question have been paid off (even though those other people may still face a rough time if left alone by themselves.
In the above, I gave the example of Gatikara for the first.
There is another sutta relevant to the second case, which describes a situation where a husband leaves the family and becomes a bhikkhu. One day the wife comes to see him with the baby and blames him for leaving the child to herself and set the child by him and pretends to leave. She goes away from his sight and starts watching him to see whether he will take the child. The bhikkhu is unmoved, and she finally comes and takes the child away.
– So, in this case, the bhikkhu had totally removed any attachment to the family.It is VERY IMPORTANT to realize that both thoughts process in the above two cases are AUTOMATIC, based on the gati of Gatikara and the bhikkhu. It is not that Gatikara forcefully made himself committed to his parents. Also, it is not that the bhikkhu took “hard line approach” and refused to go back to lay life to take care of the family.
The problem is that it is very hard for us to judge these situations from the outside. Human mind is very complex, and it is almost impossible for others to see what is going on in the mind of any given person.
It is interesting to note that Buddha praised the bhikkhu for the way he handled the situation. Of course a Buddha can read anyone’s mind and he knew that the bhikkhu COULD NOT go back and STAY a householder even if he tried to do that by force. His mindset had changed permanently. He had given up all attachments, and to his mind, there was no difference between his family and any other. Anyone who is not at or close to Arahanthood cannot even imagine that.
@inflib (Donna): Yes. While we cannot do kamma in dreams, dreams can indicate one’s progress on the Path in a crude way.
Normally, one who making progress on the Path will be seeing less and less of frightening or scary dreams.
Other than that, it is probably not a good idea to use the types of dreams one sees to make an analysis of one’s progress.
Inflib said: “Although, I still have dreams that are mostly relationship type, but no homes, cars, or vacations/beautiful places or the like. This means I still have asavas for a relationship, right? “
Putting dreams aside, one could have relationships without asavas (lobha, dosa, moha). For example, relationship between a parent and a child are based on long-term relationships through previous births. A parent raising a child is paying back old debt, and when the child grows up the child may start paying back debt.
– The same thing can be said for friends, and even married couples. Long after the sexual relationship ends due to old age, many couples remain devoted each other.Even when one attains magga phala, such feelings may remain. One’s actions may not involve anything other than fulfilling one’s responsibilities.
– From the Tipitaka there is a story about Gatikara, who was an Anagami. He stayed a lay person rather than becoming a bhikkhu, because he wanted to take care of his old parents.Dvesha is Sanskrit word, the Pali word for hate/angry is dosa.
In most of these situations, whether dosa arose in the mind of the person in question depends TOTALLY on that person. Some actions that may appear to be taken with dosa, may actually be due to compassion for all involved.
- The individual making fun is likely to be acting with dosa or avijja (just having fun not realizing it is a bad thing to do).
- Whether B committed the wrong doing or not, bringing that out in public could be done with dosa.
- Could be either way, as above.
- The last one on raga is the same. It really depend on what kind of things are discussed. Just asking about Y’s family is a courtesy, as long as it does not get “out-of-hand” asking too many details. Again, it also depends on how close they are.
– The host may get angry at that and not invite him in the future. But it is also possible that the sees that the individual is “bad company” for everyone, and that could be done with compassion.
– But if A knows for sure that B had committed the wrong doing, and would like others to avoid B, then it could be done with compassion for others.
– It really depends on the mindset of A. In the language of Abhidhamma, the question is whether asobhana etasika or sobhana cetasika arise in the mind of A. It cannot be both at any given moment, and only that person would know.The bottom line is that only the person in question will truly know. We cannot judge by looking from outside.
By the way, avoiding “bad company” is a MUST to cultivate the Path. Making “good friends” is a must too. However, here “good/bad” are not in the mundane sense. These days, people who go drinking together or hunting together are assumed to be “good friends”. A truly good friend would be one who helps the other to stay away from such activities.
You should read the first several (at least the first five) posts at:
“Historical Background“.These are rules for the bhikkhus, and not for the lay people, of course.
The reason for prohibiting damaging plants is described in a sutta, but I forget the sutta’s name. It is described how a bhikkhu cut down a tree to make a hut for himself or something like that. There are bhummatta devas (devas of the lowest deva realm that reside alongside us), and most have their residences (vimana) on trees.
– Of course, we cannot see them or their residences, so we don’t know which tress are “taken” by such devas. Anyway, this bhikkhu cut down that tree and the deva got upset and complained to the Buddha. That is when the Buddha made this vinaya rule for the bhikkus.
– Furthermore, there are numerous insects and microscopic living beings that are sustained by a tree. There could be many insects on a single leaf! All those will be harmed by cutting down a tree.Seeds and raw meat: There are microscopic living beings living in seeds. We all have seen even larger insects in various kinds of grains. The same apply to raw meat too. If bhikkhus start cooking such items, those lives would be destroyed.
Basically, the idea is that a bhikkhu is supposed to be taken care by the lay disciples. Thus, there is no need to cut down trees or to cook grains and raw meat (or engage in many activities stated in that sutta).
A lay person would not be able to abide those two rules, since he/she may have to cut down trees for many purposes and need to cook grains and meat.
The main idea is to avoid as many actions as possible, that could harm living beings. But there are some things that even a bhikkhu cannot avoid. For example, we know that there are numerous microscopic beings in water, and when we heat water or even drink water, they will die. But there is no way to live without water!
I recommend this sutta to everyone. The English translation Akvan referred to is good enough, since it does not involve any deep concepts and only the moral standards for a bhikkhu. We, as lay people, can try to live by most of those rules too, except some like the two Akvan mentioned.
P.S. There is more information on this topic at, “Tuvaṭaka Sutta – 4.14. The Quick Way“.
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- direct the mind to another sign, a sign which is connected with wholesome emotions, such as the sign of unattractiveness while lust arises or a sign of danger in the case of sensual pleasure.
