February 27, 2018 at 6:56 am #14204
Reference to MN 52, it is mentioned that a person can attain Anagami fruition even by attaining the 1st jhana. I would think this is the 1st Ariya jhana which is often emphasised by Lal. I have heard of some teachings that say to become an Anagami, one needs to attain the fourth jhana. MN 52 has proven this doctrine to be incorrect. Interestingly, a person who practises the Brahmavihara could also attain the fruition of an Anagami. Lal has mentioned before the Ariya metta bhavana in his post. I would assume the other 3 cornerstones of Brahmavihara (and all the other meditative states mentioned in this sutta) are nothing short of the Ariya standard. In this sutta, I noticed that the highest meditative state that could potentially yield the fruition of an Anagami is the base of nothingness. Strangely, the base of neither perception nor non-perception is not mentioned, let alone Nirodha Samāpatti.
Towards the end of the sutta, the householder depicted the fruition of an Anagami to be that of Deathless. So, if someone has become an Anagami and is reborn in the Suddhāvāsa abodes, his work can be said to be almost complete. He is just waiting for his life span to be exhausted there and enter final Nibbana.
February 28, 2018 at 7:04 am #14218
This was discussed under the topic, “Jhana and magga pala“.
More information at the post, “Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna“.
I think the sutta that is discussed at the end of that post is similar to the MN52 that you mentioned, Johnny.
Key facts to keep in mind:
1. Anariya jhana attained by focusing on a worldly object like breath or kasina. Ariya jhana attained by taking the “seen Nibbana” as the thought object: “etan santan etan paneetan…”.
2. Thus one has to have “seen” Nibbana (i.e., one must be at least a Sotapanna) to take Nibbana as the thought object (which means the “cooling down one has seen”).
3. One gets to anariya jhana by SUPPRESSING pancanivarana. A Sotapanna has REMOVED pancanivarana.
4. Of course, one who has anariya jhana can make it an Ariya jhana by comprehending the Tilakkhana and seeing the futility of jhanic pleasures.
5. A Sotapanna who gets to the first anariya jhana has not removed kama raga. But he/she will not come back to the kama loka (will get theAnagami phala moment in the brahma loka and attain Nibbana there). So, he/she is still an Anagami (“na” + “agami” or not coming back). This is what is stated in the last bullet in “Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna“.
February 28, 2018 at 8:31 am #14220
“A Sotapanna who gets to the first Ariya jhana has removed kama raga, but may not have had the Anagami phala moment.”
So, in this case, does the Sotapanna turn into an Anagami Anugami? It is not mentioned that patigha is still present though. Does an Anagami Anugami dwell in the Suddhāvāsa abodes? Also, can an Anagami attain Arahantship in Suddhāvāsa abodes? Or does the Anagami wear out his kamma vipaka in Suddhāvāsa abodes and enter final Nibbana from there?
March 2, 2018 at 9:38 pm #14264AkvanParticipant
You said: does the anagami wear out his kamma vipaka in the Suddhavasa abodes and enter final Nibbana there?
One does not have to wear out his/her kamma vipaka to attain nibbana. Nibbana is attained via understanding / comprehension. So i think it is right to say that he will achieve that understanding in the Suddhavasa realm like Lal has mentioned.
March 2, 2018 at 10:01 pm #14266
February 28, 2018 at 9:54 am #14224
P.S. on June 17, 2022
My comment that Johnny quoted “A Sotapanna who gets to the first Ariya jhana has removed kama raga, but may not have had the Anagami phala moment.” is not correct.
It should read as, “A Sotapanna who gets to the first anariya jhana has not removed kama raga. But he/she would still be –in effect — be an Anagami in the sense of “not coming back to the kama loka.”
1. One with a given jhana will be born in the corresponding brahma realm.
– So, a Sotapanna with the first anariya jhana will be born in the corresponding brahma realm, not in the Suddhāvāsa, which is reserved for those who have attained the Anagami phala moment.
– But he/she is still an Anagami (“na” + “agami” or not coming back to kama loka). He/she will attain the Anagami phala moment there and then will be born in the Suddhāvāsa.
2. Any magga phala can be attained in any realm (human and above), with the following exceptions: One cannot attain the Sotapanna stage in arupavacara realms, since one does not have ears to listen to Dhamma. Also, no magga phala possible in the Asanna realm.
– But a Sotapanna can attain higher magga phala if born in arupavacara realms too.
June 8, 2018 at 9:45 pm #16352
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