Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
There seems to be two issues that may be difficult to grasp.
1. A LIVING Arahant is subjected to kamma vipaka DURING his/her life.
2. No kamma vipaka will come to an Arahant AFTER his/her death.When we clarify some basic and fundamental issues, hopefully the answers will become clear.
FIRST is the definition of an anantariya kamma vipaka. As I explained above, such a kamma vipaka should bring results “without a gap”, immediately.
However, a “complication” arises due to a SECOND key factor. The primary “body” that is directly subjected to anantariya kamma vipaka is the “mental body” consisting of the kammaja kaya, cittaja kaya, and utuja kaya. All living beings have this “mental body” and in human and animal realms it is given a special name “gandhabba”.
– The gandhabba or the mental body is trapped inside a solid physical body, and thus is “shielded” form those anantariya kamma vipaka.THIRDLY, in addition to the five “bad” anantariya kamma that I mentioned earlier, there are several “good” anantariya kamma: magga phala (stages of Nibbana) and attainment of (Ariya or anariya) jhanas. Of course these apply to only humans.
If one did not have a solid body, one attaining the Anagami stage would be instantaneously born in the rupavacara realms reserved for the Anagamis, and one attaining the Arahant stage would immediately undergo Parinibbana (i.e., cease to exist in the 31 realms and immediately get to Nibbana). Furthermore, one attaining a jhana would immediately be born in a brahma realm.
However, since the mental body is “shielded” by the solid physical body, any type of anantariya kamma vipaka will have to wait until the mental body comes out of the physical body AFTER the natural death of the physical body (In the case of an Arahant/yogi coming out of the physical body to perform supernormal powers, this does not apply since the two bodies have not been “kammically separated”).
Those are THREE factors that we need to keep in mind.
Now we can see why 1 and 2 above hold. An Arahant HAS TO live with the physical body that he/she was born with until the death of the physical body. At death, the gandhabba comes out and immediately undergoes Parinibbana. Until then, the physical body would have to bear many good and bad kamma vipaka.
There is actually a FOURTH issue that completes this analysis. One attains the final stage of Nibbana (Arahanthood), not by removing or exhausting all kamma vipaka from the past.
– One attains the Arahanthood by cultivating one’s panna (wisdom) to the level where one truly understands the real nature of this world. At that point one’s mind will not be tempted by ANY desire to born ANYWHERE in the 31 realms. That is a CRITICAL POINT to understand.
– Now when the gandhabba comes out of the dead body of an Arahant, it immediately undergoes the cuti (separation from the human bhava), due to the anantariya kamma vipaka associated with the Arahant phala.
– But now, that lifestream CANNOT grasp a new bhava anywhere in the 31 realms since there is no “upadana” in the step of “upadana paccaya bhava” in the Paticca Samuppada process.
– Therefore, even though there are many good and bad kamma vipaka may be associated with that Arahant (the case of Angulimala is a good example), those all will become “ahosi kamma” (are not able to bring out vipaka), simply because one is not born in any of the 31 realms to experience them.In the case of the death of an Anagami, the gandhabba comes out, undergoes cuti, but can grasp a bhava in the rupavacara brahma realms reserved for the Anagamis. Therefore, a cuti-patisandhi transition takes place leading to the rebirth in such a realm. But an Anagami‘s mind would not grasp a bhava anywhere in the kamavacara realms, since he/she has lost all “upadana” (loosely tied to cravings) for such realms.
In the same way, a Sotapannas’ mind would not grasp a bhava in the apayas. Any “apayagami kamma” he/she had done have now become “ahosi kamma“.
Even though one who attained an anariya jhana would grasp a bhava in the appropriate brahma realm, that is just for that particular cuti-patisandhi transition. Since he/she had not attained a magga phala (and thus has not “seen” the futility/danger of “apayagami actions”), a birth in the apayas can happen in the future.
Please feel free to ask questions if something is not clear. These are important issues to be resolved.
Finally, I would like to point out the following about taking part in the discussion forum. I have seen many discussion forums where people use them to “show off” their knowledge. Here we are trying to learn true and pure Buddha Dhamma to seek relief from future suffering. This needs to be taken seriously, and I do not want this forum to become a philosophical-type forum where people write whatever comes to their minds.
First thing in serious learning is to be able to admit that one does not know something, if that is the case. One should not try to explain things that one is not comfortable with. I do not try to explain things that I am confident of. If I do not have a comfortable understanding, I just say so. I am willing to change my interpretation of even those things that I feel comfortable about, if good evidence to the contrary is shown.
Here are the rules advocated by the Buddha (for speech, but these discussions belong to the same category):
-If you know something that is not helpful and is untrue, then do not say it
-If you know something that might be helpful, but is untrue, do not say it
-If you know something that is not helpful and is true, do not speak about it
-If you know something that is helpful and is true, then find the right time to say it.In other words, state things that you know to be true AND only if that helps the topic of discussion. That will reduce a lot clutter in the discussion forum. Many people read these discussions, and we do not want them to waste their time reading unnecessary rantings.
Please be to the point if you are confident about the material and be grammatical as much as possible. We want this website and the discussion forum to be a source of good information.
On the other hand, I do not want to discourage useful discussions, so I hope I am not sending the wrong message.
– One good practice that could help is not to post a reply right away in response to a new comment/question, but hold off at least an hour; give it more thought and formulate a response methodically.The reference given by SengKiat is not that good, and could lead to confusion in some cases. The three types of sufferings are discussed at:
Introduction – What is Suffering?
Introduction -2 – The Three Characteristics of Nature
Those are the first two posts in the subsection: “Paticca Samuppada in Plain English“.
@Embodied: No need to do that.
I will explain those two issues below.Yes. Vipaka of non-ananatariya kamma may also be applied repeatedly if the kammic energy is not used up entirely.
Yes. As long as there are causes (hetu), there will be effects (phala). But with time some of those kammic energies wear out and could be totally exhausted after long times. Then they will not bring vipaka; they become ahosi kamma.
@Embodied: Whether it vanishes or disappears, it is the same thing.
Let me repeat the two important questions that I raised above. Do you understand why:
1. A LIVING Arahant is subjected to kamma vipaka DURING his/her life.
2. No kamma vipaka will come to an Arahant AT or AFTER his/her death.This is done not to embarrass you or anyone else, but to get to the right question and then to answer. This could be the same issue that “y not” asking about. I am not sure. I just want to clarify the question before answering.
Embodied said: “So my question “why is that?” relates to Parinibanna, meaning why is that all kamma vipaka vanishes when Parinibanna takes place.”
Why would not all kamma vipaka vanish for an Arahant when that Arahant attains Parinibbana?
Welcome to the discussion forum, ashish.gohel!
It will take some effort to get an answer to your question. The Buddha said that both views that “there is a self” and “there is no-self” are wrong.
You may want to read in the following order:
What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“Self” and “no-self”: A Simple Analysis – Do We Always Act with Avijja?
Anatta and Dukkha – True Meanings
A “lifestream” per first post above can be thought of the following way too. One has a set of gati (soemtimes spelled as gathi). These are character qualities/habits that change from life-to-life and even during a given life. One attains Nibbana when one gets rid of all gati. You can learn about gati by starting with the following post: “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gathi), and Cravings (Asavas)”
Then you can use the “Search” box at top right to find more posts on gati. Please feel free to ask questions (and refer to the posts in question) as you proceed.
@Alay: Anantariya kamma vipaka may not be exhausted by a birth in the apayas. There could be “leftover kammic energy” that can come back in later lives, as happened to Ven. Moggallana. He had been born in the apayas previously due that anantariya kamma of killing both his parents, but there was still left over kammic energy.
@Embodied: Why would an Arahant (or a Buddha) NOT experience kamma vipaka? Why do you think they should not experience kamma vipaka DURING their lives?
Another question on anantariya kamma came up in a recent discussion, and I realized that I did not clarify what is meant by “anantariya” above. So, here is what I posted in the recent discussion:
Most of the questions can be easily resolved if one understands the meaning of the Pali terms involved.
Anantariya is “na” + “an” + “antara“. That rhymes as “ānantara”.
Anatta is the negation of “atta” or having refuge/having substance: “na” + “atta” (which rhymes as “anatta”): there is no substance/ does not hold any ultimate truth; see, “Anatta – the Opposite of Which Atta?“.
Words like this cannot be analyzed grammatically. This is why current Pāli experts are wrong in interpreting such words (and are unable to interpret many key words).
Going back to the word “anantariya“: “An” or “anu” means “food” or “kamma seed” depending on where it is used. “na” means “not”. “antara” means somewhere away. Therefore, anantariya means “not stored away” in the sense that it bring vipaka “right away”.
When one does a kamma that is NOT anantariya, its kammic energy is “stored away” and can bring suitable kamma vipaka, when suitable CONDITIONS appear. Some kamma vipaka may not be realized for many lives simply because suitable conditions had not appeared.
However, an anantariya kamma means it will bring vipaka, at the end of the current life. “Right away” does not mean at that moment, but at death, because that is when the gandhabba comes out and is not shielded from the “dense human body”.
Such “extremely strong” kamma are five: killing one’s mother, killing one’s father, killing an Arahant, shedding the blood of a Buddha, creating schism within Sangha.
Any of those five kammas will override any existing other kamma vipaka, to bring next birth in the apayas. That is what is meant by an anantariya kamma. If there are any more questions left, please feel free to ask.
Any other kamma vipaka can be overcome by attaining a magga phala (at least the Sotapanna stage). For example, if one has “apayagami kamma vipaka” waiting to bear fruit (as almost all normal humans do), attaining the Sotapanna stage will OVERRIDE those kamma vipaka.
Attaining a magga phala does NOT mean the removal of kammic energies for such previous kamma. It just means, suitable conditions to bring such kamma vipaka will NEVER materialize in the future. To put it in another way: at the dying moment, a Sotapanna WILL NOT grasp (upadana) a birth in the apayas. His/her mindset has PERMANENTLY changed. This is why Angulimala became free of the apayas, even though he killed 999 people. That was not an anantariya kamma. Only those five kamma listed above are anantariya kamma.
@Embodied: Isn’t that what I just explained? Please think before making comments. This discussion board is cluttered with unnecessary questions/comments like this.
Hereafter, I am just going to delete such questions/comments. They do not serve any purpose. If something was not clear, you need to state WHAT you did not understand and WHY what I wrote did not make sense.
Please understand that I cannot “make someone understand” a given concept. Only thing I CAN DO is to explain to the best of my ability. No one is paying me to do this, and I am doing this out of compassion. It is up to each person to make an EFFORT to understand.
You said: “..you mentioned in a post that bats changed their next birth by listening to Nobles recite Dhamma in a cave.”
Bats or any animal cannot learn Dhamma. What happens in such situations is the following.
Any living being has both good and bad kamma vipaka waiting to come to fruition, under suitable conditions. Kamma beeja work just like normal seeds. We know that seeds can be kept for thousands of years without germinating. But if those seeds are given suitable conditions (put in soil and provide water, sun light and nutrients) and they will then germinate.
In the same way, those bats had good kamma vipaka (to gain human birth) from the past lives. When they were listening to those Dhamma recitals, their minds got calmed down (not by understanding Dhamma, but by the soothing tone), and those good kamma vipaka were able to come to their minds at their dying moment (apparently something happened for all of them to die while listening to those chantings). So, they were all born human due to those “old” kamma vipaka.
Buddha Dhamma is deep and has many facets. It will take time to understand various subtle points. Life is very complex.
In principle, a gandhabba can learn Dhamma while in paralowa. But it is unlikely.
Humans are unique in the following way. Our brains act as the intermediary between the external world and our minds (our thoughts/sankhara are generated in hadaya vatthu). The neocortex in the brain “slows down” our reactions to external sense inputs, and can force us from making spontaneous reactions; see, “Truine Brain: How the Mind Rewires the Brain via Meditation/Habits“.
On the other hand, gandhabbas “just go with flow”. Whatever sankhara one used to cultivate in a human body, are likely to be cultivated in the same direction.
I am not sure what you meant in the question: “And is it possible to change it’s future parents, jati or even attain Nibbāna from the previous cuti-patisandhi moment at death?”.
@y not: Your questions are probably answered in the comment that I just posted in “Anantariya Kamma, Euthanasia and Assisted Suicides“.
If not, feel free to ask any remaining questions.
Most of the questions can be easily resolved if one understands the meaning of the Pali terms involved.
Anantariya is “na” + “an” + “antara“. That rhymes as “ānantara”.
Anatta is the negation of “atta” or having refuge/having substance: “na” + “atta” (which rhymes as “anatta”): there is no substance/ does not hold any ultimate truth; see, “Anatta – the Opposite of Which Atta?“.
Words like this cannot be analyzed grammatically. This is why current Pāli experts are wrong in interpreting such words (and are unable to interpret many key words).
Going back to the word “anantariya“: “An” or “anu” means “food” or “kamma seed” depending on where it is used. “na” means “not”. “antara” means somewhere away. Therefore, anantariya means “not stored away” in the sense that it bring vipaka “right away”.
When one does a kamma that is NOT anantariya, its kammic energy is “stored away” and can bring suitable kamma vipaka, when suitable CONDITIONS appear. Some kamma vipaka may not be realized for many lives simply because suitable conditions had not appeared.
However, an anantariya kamma means it will bring vipaka, at the end of the current life. “Right away” does not mean at that moment, but at death, because that is when the gandhabba comes out and is not shielded from the “dense human body”.
Such “extremely strong” kamma are five: killing one’s mother, killing one’s father, killing an Arahant, shedding the blood of a Buddha, creating schism within Sangha.
Any of those five kammas will override any existing other kamma vipaka, to bring next birth in the apayas. That is what is meant by an anantariya kamma. If there are any more questions left, please feel free to ask.
Any other kamma vipaka can be overcome by attaining a magga phala (at least the Sotapanna stage). For example, if one has “apayagami kamma vipaka” waiting to bear fruit (as almost all normal humans do), attaining the Sotapanna stage will OVERRIDE those kamma vipaka.
Attaining a magga phala does NOT mean the removal of kammic energies for such previous kamma. It just means, suitable conditions to bring such kamma vipaka will NEVER materialize in the future. To put it in another way: at the dying moment, a Sotapanna WILL NOT grasp (upadana) a birth in the apayas. His/her mindset has PERMANENTLY changed. This is why Angulimala became free of the apayas, even though he killed 999 people. That was not an anantariya kamma. Only those five kamma listed above are anantariya kamma.
