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I see many inputs to the discussion. I will try to get to the very essence of Buddha Dhamma to analyze this issue. Anicca is much deeper to comprehended by monitoring “body sensations”. It is all about changing one’s perceptions about how this world works (based on how the mind works), and how future suffering arises due to one’s own wrong perceptions.
The Buddha said that all living beings are trapped in a rebirth process, and most of these births are in realms that are filled with suffering. By cultivating panna (wisdom) about the real nature of this world, one can stop this rebirth process, and that he called attaining Nibbana. This was the key message of the Buddha. But most people today believe that Buddha taught about stopping the dukha vedana that one feels due to body aches, deceases, injuries etc.
This is why techniques like breath meditation and Goenka’s technique appeal to many people. They can see that some physical and mental relief can be achieved by using such techniques. In fact, some even can get to jhana, and then it becomes impossible for them to even seriously consider the true message of the Buddha. They get trapped in a “temporary oasis”.
Ultimately, Nibbana is realized ONLY when one sees the unfruitfulness and danger in the rebirth process. There is no refuge anywhere in the 31 realms, where it is a human, deva, or a brahma realm. One version of anicca is to see that anything that we do seek happiness in this world will not yield a permanent happiness. Rather, those actions can lead to future suffering that a normal human cannot even comprehend.
The first priority is to make sure one would not be born in the apayas (the four lowest realms), which includes the animal realm. That is where the suffering is worst. So, one first needs to understand how one COULD BE born in the apayas. What kind of deeds, actions, and thoughts will setup causes and conditions for one to be born in the apayas?
Therefore, one important aspect of realizing the anicca nature is to understand Paticca Samuppada (pati icca leading to sama uppada); see, “Paticca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha”+”Sama+uppāda” and other posts in that section.
When people seek temporary sense pleasures, they may do immoral deeds (papa kamma or apunnabhisankhara) to get them. For example, one may commit rape to get sexual satisfaction which lasts only a short time, but the consequences are unimaginably harsh. Such IMMORAL actions are done by animals and thus are associated with “animal gati”. Since one is attached to such “animal gati” and has a liking for them (pati icca), that can lead to births of similar nature (sama uppada). That is the basic idea, and you can read the section on Paticca Samuppada for details. (posts on “gati” can be found by using the Search box; I sometimes spell it as “gathi“).
The key point here is that the craving for such an extreme sense pleasure WILL lead to a future rebirth with very harsh suffering. The consequences are not determined by one’s desire, but by the root causes underlying one’s ACTIONS (KAMMA). There are ten such “bad actions” that will lead to suffering, and they are called dasa akusala; see, “Dasa Akusala/Dasa Kusala – Basis of Buddha Dhamma“.
In order to make this point clear, let us take one more example. One may kill another man in order to get his possessions (money, property, spouse, etc). So, the intent of that act is to make one’s life better, that is the “icca” or “desire”. One gets “bound” (“pati”) to this craving (“icca”) of hoping to make one’s life better by this killing and may even plan for many months to achieve that goal. However, the long-term consequences will be a birth in the niraya (lowest realm), where the suffering can last millions of years (“sama uppada” is due to the fact that killing a human is one of the worst dasa akusala and that is a future birth in a niraya or hell). This is a hard point to understand for many (how the consequences can be that harsh), but it will become clear as cleanses one’s mind by learning the true and pure Dhamma that the Buddha taught.
The key point is that any actions that involve dasa akusala, will have unimaginably harsh consequences. In other words, “one cannot maintain things to one’s expectations”. The above two are extreme examples of anicca nature, and that is where one should start. It is easy to see the main idea. Then one will start realizing the bad consequences of lesser actions like stealing,gossiping, etc.
When one comprehends this basic anicca nature of attaching to such “lowly cravings”, one’s mind will AUTOMATICALLY reject such thoughts. That is when one attains the Sotapanna stage and will be free from births in the apayas forever. That is when one starts on the Noble Path with a basic idea of anicca nature.
The next stage is to realize the anicca nature of ANY sense pleasure, and that leads to the Sakadagami and Anagami stages. But that is unimaginable for a normal human, and one should not contemplate on that far at the beginning.
The deepest level of anicca nature is realized only at the Arahant stage, where one sees the unfruitfulness and danger even in the higher brahma realms.
There are many posts at the site in various sections, providing different types of analyses on anicca. The main section is: “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta“.
Those who are interested can scan through the site map and go through sections of interest, like “Sotapanna Stage“.
So, I hope I have clarified the key point that one must first understand the key message of the Buddha in order to make a true assessment of meditation techniques that do provide temporary relief. The key question to ask is how those techniques can lead to a true understanding of the anicca nature, which in turn will lead to “cessation of suffering” and attaining Nibbana.
If you think Goenka’s techniques do that, that is fine. Each person needs to make his/her decisions on such critical issues.
You said: “Goenka’s body scan technique is about experiencing anicca with the body sensations (coming from all angles mentioned before), with the consequence realization of dukha and anatta; Complete Tilakkhana.”
This is the key.
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What is meant by anicca per Goenka technique? Impermanence?
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How does a “body scan” leads to the realization of anicca nature?
Yes. As I mentioned many times in my comments, it is possible to experience a “sukha vedana” in the body by doing even just breath meditation.
Ancient yogis were able to cultivate even supernormal (abhinna) powers by doing breath mediation TOGETHER WITH staying away from sense pleasures AND immoral deeds (akusala kammma). One can get to anariya jhanas that way (“vivicca kamehi, vivicca akusala dhammehi” is a phrase that comes up in the explanations of even anariya jhana).
The Noble Eightfold Path is cultivated by first getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi and then comprehending Tilakkhana. That is the way to realize the real nature of this world and thus to automatically lose cravings for things in this world. This is explained in detail with many posts at the site. This is not easy to grasp for many, and it takes an effort just to see that.
Don’t worry about it, Frank.
In a way, your question brings up an interesting aspect of this complex world.
Especially lower animals are more like robots, they just live “paying their kamma vipaka”, without the ability to do any strong good kamma or strong bad kamma.This can be explained only in terms of the type of citta experienced by animals. So, I cannot provide a satisfactory answer without using Abhidhamma.
But here is a key point to remember. It is mainly humans who can generate strong kamma vipaka BOTH good and bad.
– Briefly, “ditthi sampayutta citta” generated by those humans who do immoral actions with wrong views generate the worst kamma vipaka.
– On the other hand, those who have comprehended Tilakkhana (and thus automatically generate “nana sampayutta citta” at least in some cases) generate the strong good kamma vipaka.
– When one progresses on the mundane eightfold path, the tendency to bad kamma (deeds, speech, and thoughts) will decrease. Then when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana, the tendency to do good kamma (with better understanding) will start increasing.Papanca are basically papa kamma, also called kanha kamma: “Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya“.
More specifically, papanca refers to immoral thoughts (vaci sankhara) that one consciously generates in one’s mind.
@Tobias: The bottom line is that one attains the Arahanthood by clearly seeing the futility of being born ANYWHERE in the 31 realms.
That is reached in steps. First one sees the dangers in cultivating sankhara with the three unwholesome roots. That leads to the Sotapanna stage, and stopping rebirth in the apayas.
Then one sees the futility in born in the kama loka, at a higher level of panna (wisdom). That leads to stopping rebirth in human and deva realms.
All those were done by cultivating sankhara with the three wholesome or good roots. That process continues to the Arahant stage, where one can see the futility in being reborn even in the rupavacara and arupavacara brahma realms.
To look at it from another way: The panna cetasika is optimized only at the Arahant stage. At that point one has attained “Samma Nana”, which is the optimum nana (vision of the true nature of this world is complete), and that leads to “Samma Vimutti” or “total and complete release”.
This is why it is said that: “Attangehi samannagato Sekha, dasa angehi samannagato Arahant” or “one who is completing the Noble Eightfold Path is a Trainee, and one who has completed the next two (Samma Nana and Samma Vimutti) is an Arahant“.
So, when one attains the Arahant stage, there is no NEED to cultivate even the three good roots. “What needs to be done is done; there is nothing nmore to do”.
All six roots lead to rebirth somewhere in the 31 realms. It is just that cultivating the three good roots leads to the “knowledge of the real nature of this world”. But that REQUIRES hearing about Tilakkhana from a Buddha or a true disciple of a Buddha. Otherwise, just cultivating the three good roots will not get one to Nibbana.
You asked: “Can someone post a link to a sutta with explanation of tihetuka, dvihetuka, ahetuka patisandhi? Or can this topic only be found in the Abhidhamma?”
– I think the explanation is available only in Abhidhamma. I could be wrong.Yes. There is a difference between kama and kama raga. There may be a trace of kama left in an Anagami, but that is not enough to lead to a birth in kama loka.
That trace of kama is likely to be associated with rupa raga (and avijja) which are two samyojanas removed at the Arahant stage.
You asked: ” In the days of the Buddha, did people listening to His discourses go from anariya to Anagami or Arahant right away, bypassing the Sotapanna stage?”
Yes. There are many accounts in the Tipitaka, of people attaining any of the four stages of magga phala while listening to a desana or even a single verse.
– But that always happens in the sequence: Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant. It is just that even all four can take place within a short time, ending in the Arahant stage. So, it is not really bypassing any intermediate stage.@Akvan: Yes. You are right when you said: “From this I think hiri and otappa are for trainees (sekkha) and may be even for anariyas”.
Without hiri (shame of immoral deeds) and otappa (fear of the consequences of immoral deeds), it is not possible to cultivate sati and samadhi.
This is the right forum for your questions.
Yes. Paticca Samuppada (PS)is very complex. Avijja and tanha go together. They are both removed at the Arahant phala moment.
You asked: “Perhaps more clearly, can avijja paccaya tanha by doing so without the involvement of sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phassa and vedana? ”
- The key point is that the PS cycle runs from “avijja paccaya sankhara” to “upadana paccaya bhava” step in the suddhashtaka-generating step.
- That “bhava energy” created up to that point can now bring vipaka EITHER at that moment OR at a later time, starting from “bhava paccaya jati“.
- This is a highly-condensed answer to your question. It is probably not necessary to get into such details, but I mentioned it because you specifically asked. Sometimes, one needs to get to deep Abhidhamma to explain subtle points.
- It is enough for most purposes to understand that a particular bhava (and jati) arises due to the cultivation of certain type of (abhi)sankhara, based on one’s level of avijja and gati.
– Within there, many complex inter-connecting steps can occur, like “sankhara paccaya avijja”
– All this happens within a fraction of a second, in javana citta in a citta vithi.– In particular in a “uppatti PS”, the vipaka may come much later, even in a future birth. So, the “bhava paccaya jati” step comes later.
– In pavutti PS, the results appear at that time. For example, when one is drinking alcohol at a party, one is generating kaya, vaci, and mano sankhara related to that and may end up in the “drunkard bhava” and a “drunkard jati” (become drunk) at that time.– For example, births in the apayas are due to the cultivation of apunnabhisankhara or immoral deeds/speech, and thoughts. Births in a rupavacra brahma realm is due to the cultivation of rupavacara jhanas, which is a type of punnabhisankhara.
– Both are done with avijja, but at very different levels.@lucas.cambon: I have explained in detail my reasons; see, for example, my comment on March 7, 2018 at 7:07 am, and a couple of more comments after that addressing various other issues.
If you or anyone else can refute those, I would be happy to discuss further. Please quote from my statements, so that we know exactly what point is being discussed.
I cannot recommend specific meditation techniques, because each person is different and needs to decide on that. General information is at:
“Bhāvanā (Meditation)“.Regarding the second question, there has been a lengthy discussion at:
“Goenka´s Vipassana”
If you have a question specific to this particular technique, it is better to be asked there.This topic was in the “General Forum” and I just moved it to this forum, where it should be.
I just opened a new forum: “Meditation Forum“.
You can open a new topic there.
@Vince: Sorry. I guess I did not catch that it was his father. So, let us look at your specific question:
“I had a specific question about the issue of a dying parent being placed on or removed from life support; Does it count as an anantariya kamma if
1) a person chooses not to place a dying parent on life support or
2) if the person chooses to cease giving life support to a dying parent?”
First of all, in cases like this, children SHOULD NOT get involved in the decision making; it is far too dangerous for them. It is best to leave such decisions to the medical personnel (and maybe to other close relatives, who would not be subjected to anantariya kamma).
With that out of the way, I think either decision above could be counted as anantariya kamma in some cases and possibly not in other cases (as you said, it depends on what types of cetasika arise in the mind of the decision maker).
This is why it is best to leave the decision to others. Even if they make the “wrong decision”, it will not become an anantariya kamma for them. I remember a desana by Waharaka Thero, where he said that usually son-in-law or daughter-in-law could consult with medical personnel to make such decisions. That makes sense to me.
Those two types of micca ditthi are applicable only for the humans.
Even though many animals also have a mother and father, and have those two types of micca ditthi that is irrelevant anyway; they have no sense of other types of micca ditthi either.
The term gandhabba is normally reserved for the “mental body” (kammaja kaya) of a human or an animal. In most other realms, the living being is formed with “a full body” at the cuti-patisandhi moment.
The preta realm belongs to the apayas, i.e., it is one of the lowest four realms. Animal realm also belongs to the apayas.
So, there is a huge difference between a human gandhabba and a preta. There is also a huge difference between a human gandhabba, animal gandhabba. The word preta is not used to refer to a gandhabba.
I think the possible confusion may come from the fact that some pretas have very fine bodies, just like (human or animal) gandhabbas. But brahmas also have such fine bodies, and brahmas are very different from gandhabbas or pretas.
The following post provides some references from the Tipitaka for a human gandhabba:”Gandhabba State – Evidence from Tipiṭaka“.
Without the concept of a gandhabba, it is not possible to have a consistent picture of human and animal realms. For example, the difference between bhava and jati is impossible.
These are discussed in the following sections. You can scan through and read those of interest:
“Mental Body – Gandhabba“.When the gandhabba is not inside a physical body (when it is waiting for a womb), it is in “paralowa“. Not believing in paralowa is one of the 10 types of micca ditthi; see #5 of “Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala)“.
P.S. Any sutta that discusses the 10 types of micca ditthi will have the reference to “para loka“. Actually, the term “parolowa” is the Sinhala word for the Pali term “para loka“. I need to revise those posts with the word “paralowa” with “para loka“.
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