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@y not : “ It turns out that Suttacental does have the full text after all!”
No. The Sutta Central version does not have details about different births, other than Anagami, for “other types on state of mind”.
Regarding sanna vipllasa: Those sanna vipallasa are removed permanently at different levels at different stages of magga phala. A significant part is removed at the Sotapanna stage (regarding apayagami akusala), and those regarding sense plessures are reduced at the Sakadagami stage and removed at the Anagami stage. All (including jhanic pleasures) are removed at the Arahant stage.
When they are removed with magga phala, they do not come back even if one is reborn in another galaxy or anywhere in this world, if that is what you were asking.
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@ y not: Yes. There are many suttas such as the one you quoted (which I had not read), where it is shown that magga phala can be attained without going through any jhana.
But this sutta is interesting in that it says Anagami stage is possible by alms giving or making offerings (dana).
On the surface it appears that one may not need to have a comprehension of Tilakkhana or the Four Noble Truths in order to attain the Anagami stage.
The relevant passage is at the end of the Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52: “yvāyaṃ na heva sāpekho dānaṃ deti; na pati¬baddha-citto dānaṃ deti; na sannidhipekho dānaṃ deti; na ‘imaṃ pecca pari¬bhuñjis¬sāmī’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘sāhu dānan’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘dinnapubbaṃ katapubbaṃ pitupitāmahehi na arahāmi porāṇaṃ kulavaṃsaṃ hāpetun’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘ahaṃ pacāmi, ime na pacanti, nārahāmi pacanto apacantānaṃ dānaṃ adātun’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘yathā tesaṃ pubbakānaṃ isīnaṃ tāni mahāyaññāni ahesuṃ, seyyathidaṃ—aṭṭhakassa vāmakassa vāmadevassa vessāmittassa yamadaggino aṅgīrasassa bhāradvājassa vāseṭṭhassa kassapassa bhaguno, evaṃ me ayaṃ dānasaṃvibhāgo bhavissatī’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘imaṃ me dānaṃ dadato cittaṃ pasīdati, attamanatā somanassaṃ upajāyatī’ti dānaṃ deti; api ca kho cit¬tā¬laṅkā¬ra¬citta¬parik¬khā¬raṃ dānaṃ deti. So taṃ dānaṃ datvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā brahma¬kāyikā¬naṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati. So taṃ kammaṃ khepetvā taṃ iddhiṃ taṃ yasaṃ taṃ ādhipaccaṃ anāgāmī hoti anāgantā itthattaṃ.”
However, in order to have that mindset (“yvāyaṃ na heva sāpekho dānaṃ deti; na pati¬baddha¬citto dānaṃ deti; na sannidhipekho dānaṃ deti; na ‘imaṃ pecca pari¬bhuñjis¬sāmī’ti dānaṃ deti;..”), one has to comprehend Tilakkhana.
This is what I will be discussing in the next desana on Tilakkhana. The ‘right mindest” comes with anicca sanna.
A normal human does pretty much everything with the nicca sanna. Therefore, even when giving, even if one may not be thinking about “getting something in return”, that sanna is with that person. In suttas this is called “sanna vipallasa”. In Sinhala it is called “vipareetha sanna”. I have used the phrase “vipareetha sanna” in several posts, I need to change that to provide the Pali phrase “sanna vipallasa”.
You can do a search at the Puredhamma site with the key word “vipareetha sanna” and there are several posts.
The bottom line is that in order to have the right mindset to reap more benefits of giving, one must have the anicca sanna to some level. That anicca sanna must be at a high level to reap higher benefits of giving and to become an Anagami.
I will try to incorporate this to the next desana on Tilakkhana, because it is an important point. Thanks to y not for the comment.
Finally, to provide the web link, type the title (say, the name of a sutta), select it, and then click “link” on the formatting options. That will open a link window, asking for the url of the web page. Now open that web link in a different window, copy it and paste it. You may also want to select “open in a new window”, so that the reader can access that web page in a different window, while staying in the forum.
Here is the web page that y not referred to: Generosity, dana, caga
It is simple and will save a lot time for others to try to find the web page. Thanks.
@y not: The Sutta Central Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52 does not have the full version (even in the Pali version).
Could you provide the reference where the 6 realms of rebirths are actually listed?
Thanks, Akvan.
I had not read the kama sutta that you quoted. It is VERY long.
We need to be very careful about the descriptions in various suttas. Some of them discuss just jhana in general, which seem to be anariya jhana. But a few suttas like the Jhana Sutta that you quoted refer clearly to Ariya jhanas.
I found the following sutta which clearly state the difference between Ariya and anariya jhanas. I need to add this sutta reference to one of those posts at the website that I referred to.
Paṭhamanānākaraṇa Sutta (AN 4. 123): “ Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati. Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tab¬bahu¬la-vihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno brahma¬kāyikā¬naṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati. Brahma¬kāyikā-naṃ, bhikkhave, devānaṃ kappo āyuppamāṇaṃ. Tattha puthujjano yāvatāyukaṃ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṃ tesaṃ devānaṃ āyuppamāṇaṃ taṃ sabbaṃ khepetvā nirayampi gacchati tiracchā¬na¬yonimpi gacchati pettivisayampi gacchati. Bhagavato pana sāvako tattha yāvatāyukaṃ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṃ tesaṃ devānaṃ āyuppamāṇaṃ taṃ sabbaṃ khepetvā tasmiṃyeva bhave parinibbāyati. Ayaṃ kho, bhikkhave, viseso ayaṃ adhippayāso idaṃ nānākaraṇaṃ sutavato ariyasāvakassa assutavatā puthujjanena, yadidaṃ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.”
Translated: “There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality (kāma), withdrawn from akusala, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there—fixed on that, dwelling there often, not losing the jhana—then when he dies he is born with the devas of Brahma’s retinue. The devas of Brahma’s retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal realm, or to the state of the hungry ghosts. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, attains Parinibbana. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between a Noble disciple and a normal person who had not heard the Noble Truths (assutavatā puthujjanena), in regards to the gati and birth.”
I hope this answers your root question. As I discussed in those posts at the website, when one attains the first Ariya jhana, one has become an Anagami. He/she will be born in that brahma realm and will attain Parinibbana there, as clearly stated in the above sutta.
In other words, kama raga is to be completely REMOVED to get to the first Ariya Jhana. It is only temporarily suppressed (vikkhambana pahana) for the anariya jhana.
The link that you provided goes to “59. Anattalakkhaṇasutta”.
On the sutta list under Khandha Saṃyutta at Sutta Central, it is also listed as “Pañcavaggiya [Anattalakkhaṇa]”.
So, it could be also listed as Pañcavaggiya Sutta in some places. But this is a very famous sutta, which I had always known as the Anatta Lakkhana Sutta. I believe this is the sutta that Ven. Sariputta delivered to explain in detail the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. It explains the concept of anatta.
Akvan said: “In most places aniccha, dukka, anaththa is referred to as the thilakkana, and you refer to it as three marks of existence.”
I have used both “three characteristics of nature” and “three marks of existence” to translate the Pali word Tilakkhana to English. If you look at popular English translations, people have used both those translations.
I also use just Tilakkhana at many places without translating too. That is the best, but one who is not familiar with the Pali word may get stuck. So, I have to use those common English translations too.
Akvan said: “However, in most sutta’s aniccha, dukka, anaththa are referred to as sanna”. and “But can you share any sutta’s that refer to aniccha, dukka, anaththa as lakkana?”
Different suttas have used both those terms. For example, Sabbasava sutta used “anicca sanna“. Anattalakkhana Sutta has “anatta lakkhana” in the title itself.
We should not get hang up on words. As you said:”I know that talking about whether it is a lakkana or a sanna will have no difference to the understanding of aniccha, dukka and anaththa”. That is exactly right. One just need to comprehend what is meant. Understanding is deeper than just description by words. On the other hand we have to use words to convey the idea to others. As long as the idea gets across that is fine.
Key Pali words like anicca and anatta cannot be translated word to word. They could be described in several (related) ways.
This is why my description of anicca or anatta may vary somewhat from post to post. But they are all inter-consistent.
Akvan said: “This corresponds with the Kama Sutta, where it is mentioned that kama is suppressed while in the first jhana upto nevasanna na sanna.”
It would be helpful if you provide the link to the sutta, and the verse (in Pali or English).
I do not see any such description in Kāma Sutta (Snp 4.1).
Please provide the link to the sutta, and the verse (in Pali or English) regarding other questions too. That will save me a lot of time scanning through a sutta and trying to find the relevant verse.
Siebe said: “What happens with an arahant after dying?”
You can ask the same question in many ways. But you get the same answer from the Buddha, per Tipitaka. The same thing happens to an Arahant, as to what the Buddha said what will happen to him.
I am copying my reply to you in the “The Infinity problem – BIG doubt” topic:
In his very first desana, the Buddha clearly stated that in order to stop all future suffering, the goal of any person should be what he had attained. Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11): “..Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”
Translation: “..The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence for me.”.
How more clear can one be?
And there are many more suttas stating this clearly.The concept of Nibbana has been explained in many posts, including in the subsection: “Nibbana“,and in the post, “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“.
Answers to your questions can be found in those posts and elsewhere in many posts. We also discussed these, over and over, under different topics in this forum.
You do need to stop pushing your philosophical ideas at this forum. That takes the focus away from useful discussions. I am going to remove you as a forum participant if you post again like this without citing evidence from the Tipitaka. If you have evidence to the contrary, you can state that and provide evidence from the Tipitaka.
There is only one reliable source of Buddha Dhamma, and that is the Tipitaka. That is the sole basis for this website, and therefore, for the discussions at this forum.
P.S. I do understand that “stopping rebirth” or “stopping existence” could be an unsettling thought for many people. That is the ultimate goal, but one who is starting on the Path (even a Sotapanna) should not contemplate on that. One could start at the stage where one does not even believe in rebirth. I have emphasized this point at the “Living Dhamma” section, and many other posts throughout the website.
I also recommend listening to the discourse in, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
I think everyone has agreed that it is better to discuss other more important issues.
However, it has been a useful discussion, and I thank C. Saket for bringing it up for discussion.
I am closing this topic. I can re-open it if someone has an important, relevant issue to bring up on the topic. Please send me an email at [email protected].
P.S. I updated the post, “The Infinity Problem in Buddhism” on August 13, 2022.
These questions are answered in a series of 3 posts:
Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga PhalaI think the second post gives those references, but it is good idea to read all three to get a good idea.
I have removed the word “automatically” from the original post you referred to. Yes. It is confusing . Thanks.
Siebe said: “ The idea that an arahant or tathagata exist after death (parinibbana) is, as far as i know, not answered with a “Yes” or “No”..”.
In his first desana, the Buddha clearly stated the goal of Buddha Dhamma. Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11): “..Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”
Translation: “..The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence for me.”.
How more clear can one be?
And there are many more suttas stating this clearly.You need to stop pushing your philosophical ideas at this forum. That takes the focus away from useful discussions. I am going to delete posts like this in the future. If you have evidence to the contrary, you can state that and provide evidence from the Tipitaka.
There is only one reliable source of Buddha Dhamma, and that is the Tipitaka. That is the sole basis for this website, and therefore, for the discussions at this forum.
P.S. I do understand that “stopping rebirth” or “stopping existence” could be an unsettling thought for many people. That is the ultimate goal, but one who is starting on the Path (even a Sotapanna) should not contemplate on that. One could start at the stage where one does not even believe in rebirth. I have emphasized this point at the “Living Dhamma” section, and many other posts throughout the website.
I also recommend listening to the discourse in, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
Akvan quoted the “Purisagati Sutta (AN 7.55)” and said, “So, it doesn’t make sense that a antaraparinibbai will be a human gandhabba.”
Thanks for pointing out that sutta. I was not aware of it, but it does describe the antaraparibbayi state, and in addition, that there are 7 types of antaraparinibbayi Noble persons.
1.There are 10 samyojana (sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, kama raga, patigha, rupa raga, arupa raga, mana, uddacca, avijja). These are the bonds that bind one to the samsara.
Out of these, three (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) can bring future rebirths (i.e., grasping a NEW bhava, at the cuti-patisandhi moment). They are called uppati patilabhi sampyojana.
The other 7 are called bhava patilabhi samyojana. That means until those are removed, one is not released from a bhava.
2.There are 7 anusaya (ditthi, vicikicca, kama raga, patigha, bhava raga, mana, avijja).
Here bhavaraga anusaya is basically the “desire to live” regardless of the which bhava one is in. Mana, bhavaraga, and avijja are the last ones removed. Of course they keep reducing all through the other stages of Nibbana.
One is not fully released (parinaibbana) until all seven are removed.
3. Now the above sutta is about those Noble persons that have removed the three uppatti patilabhi samyojana, in addition to sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, and patigha.
The sutta specifically says, orambhagiya samyojana (the first five) have been removed. So, one is free of kama loka.
In addition, those Ariyas have removed rupa raga and arupa raga. Therefore, that person cannot grasp a NEW bhava in kama loka, rupa loka, or arupa loka.
However, one is not yet an Arahant because three samyojanas are still left: mana, uddacca, avijja. And one has three anusaya also left (not completely removed): , bhava raga, mana, avijja, as stated in the sutta.
4. Therefore, when the physical body of such a person dies, the gandhabba caomes out and is “stuck” in that state. He/she cannot grasp a new bhava, but cannot attain Arahanthood since other defilements are left.
That is why he/she will stay in that gandhabba state until the kammic energy for the human bhava that he/she grasped at the last cuti-patisandhi moment runs out.
5. The Waharaka Thero had told others that he had removed all three uppatti patilabhi samyojana, but had not removed others like mana and avijja fully.
This is why it was suspected that he would have attained (one of) the antaraparinibbana state described in this sutta.
However, it is also possible that he removed all remaining defilements close to the dying moment and attained the full Nibbana (parinibbana). The fact that his “dhatu” were recovered points to the latter conclusion.
6. Finally, the sutta mentions “anupadaparinibbana” state, which is the state an Arahant is at until his/her physical body dies; “anupada” means “close behind”. He/she has completed all requirements and will attain “full Nibbana” when the physical body dies. Gandhabba will not survive without that physical body.
Siebe said: “I ask this, because how can the unailing state, the deathless, the unconditioned etc. be a refuge when this is only an object of a magga citta?”.
The therms in those suttas are synonyms for ultimate Nibbana, that an Arahant has attained.
One does not get to Nibbana by taking taking Nibbana as the thought object. One gets to Nibbana by totally removing all defilements from one’s mind.
One could cultivate Ariya jhana by taking the level of Nibbana that one has experienced as the thought object. For example, a Sotapanna can get to Ariya jhana by keeping the mind of the level of release (cooling down) he/she has experienced: “Etan santan etan panitan…”.
Yes. This is something that is difficult to understand for people those who are new to Buddha Dhamma. While there are many myths associated with Buddha Dhamma (i.e., ability to bring in rain with prayers, etc), there are some phenomena like this that are genuine.
When one becomes an Arahant, there are some drastic changes that happens in one’s physical body, in addition to those in the mind. For example, one’s bones get crystallized and can survive thousands of years. These are called “dhatu”. Buddha’s dhatu survive (in open caskets), and are being worshipped even today. They are supposed to survive until the end of Gotama Buddha’s Buddha Sasana (Ministry), which is supposed to last 2500 years more.
The reason that an Arahant‘s body cannot stay alive as a “householder” is similar to the reason that an Arahant will not be reborn even if more kammic energy for the human bhava is left. The mindset of an Arahant cannot be “born” with the body of a gandhabba. Why an Arahant needs to become a bhikkhu(ni) is a bit more complex. But becoming a bhikkhu(ni) makes a difference.
However, becoming an Arahant will not happen accidentally, so one does not need to worry. One WILL know if that happens. It is very difficult to attain.
Long before that one would become an Anagami, and that is not easy either. It should be relatively easy to verify whether one has become an Anagami. One would have lost all sensual cravings (for food, music, scents, any person or anything including one’s possessions like money, houses, properties, and sex). So, there will be many drastic changes in one’s mindset as well as in one’s body well before one gets to the Arahant stage.
Here is the full “Ānisaṃsasutta (AN 6.97)“:
“Chayime, bhikkhave, ānisaṃsā sotā¬patti¬phala¬sacchi¬kiriyāya. Katame cha? Saddham¬ma¬niyato hoti, apari¬hāna¬dhammo hoti, ¬pariyan¬ta¬katassa dukkhaṃ hoti, asādhāraṇena ñāṇena samannāgato hoti, hetu cassa sudiṭṭho, hetusamuppannā ca dhammā. Ime kho, bhikkhave, cha ānisaṃsā sotā-patti¬phala¬sacchi¬kiriyāyā”ti.Translated: “Bhikkhus, there are these six rewards (anisamsa) in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma (Saddhamma). One is not never going to lose that grasp of Saddhamma. One has grasped what dukkha is. One is endowed with knowledge that is not known to normal humans (asādhāraṇena ñāṇena). One sees true causes (for suffering), one comprehends causally-originated (i.e., paticca samuppanna) phenomena.
“These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry.”These are discussed at “Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna“.
Yes. A Sotapanna has seen the unconditioned (Nibbana), element. That is what the above sutta says.
One sees the unconditioned element (Nibbana) when one clearly sees how conditioned phenomena arise due to causes. Again, seeing does not mean one has completed the Path. One basically “sees” what is path is. Now one has to follow the Path.
But one is released from the apayas, because the causes for papa kamma or worst of the dasa akusala to arise have been removed from one’s mind just due that vision (Samma Ditthi).
