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y not: Where does it say, ” text allows for those 14 ‘lives’ to be bhavas not only jatis.”?
From the Janavasabha Sutta (DN 18):
“Idaṃ sattamaṃ kho ahaṃ, bhante, vessavaṇassa mahārājassa sahabyataṃ upapajjāmi, so tato cuto manussarājā bhavituṃ pahomi
Ito satta tato satta,
saṃsārāni catuddasa;
Nivāsa¬mabhi¬jānāmi,
yattha me vusitaṃ pure.
Dīgharattaṃ kho ahaṃ, bhante, avinipāto avinipātaṃ sañjānāmi, āsā ca pana me santiṭṭhati sakadāgāmitāyā’”ti.Translated: “This is now the seventh time, Bhante, that I am reborn into the communion of the great King Vessavaṇa. Deceased as a human king, I am in heaven, a non-human king.
Seven there and seven here, in all fourteen rebirths—So much I know of lives I’ve lived in the past. Long, Bhante, have I, who am destined not to be reborn in states of woe (apayas), been conscious of that destiny, and now there is desire in me to become a Sakadagami.”Hi Akvan,
There is a difference between bhava and jati: “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein“.
“King Bimbisara was born 14 times in deva and human realms”. Those are 14 jati, and not bhava.
Welcome to the forum, layman!
Yes. As I explained in that example, if one stops taking drugs but keeps on thinking about those drug related pleasures/activities, then it will not be possible to break the habit. At least, it will take much longer to break the habit; but the real problem is that if one uses it just one time after even several months, then one will have to start all over.
Of course that is the hard part too: to stop thinking about it. The Buddha suggested the following:
- One must think about the bad consequences of taking drugs. Since thinking about drugs also contribute to the problem, it is as bad as taking drugs. One could read about what happens to drug addicts at the end, and that should scare anyone.
- Start doing or thinking about another activity that one likes, when those bad thoughts come to the mind. One could read a book, exercise, or do some other activity that one likes.
- If all this fails, one should “with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and suppress those bad thoughts”.
The above quotation (which I revised a bit) is from the “Vitakkasanthana Sutta: The Relaxation of Thoughts“.
– It is not a very good translation. But the above three points are made in that sutta.
– Of course it should work with any bad habit.So, it takes a real effort to suppress such thoughts (vaci sankhara).
I am not sure about the significance of the 49th and 100th days. But I have heard an explanation for waiting for 7 days before making an offering to the bhukkhus and giving merits (pattidana) for the diseased person.
As we know, when a person’s physical body dies, the mental body (gandhabba) comes out if the kammic energy for the human bhava has not run out. Then that gandhabba has to wait for many years before a suitable womb becomes available. During this time, it is possible for the gandhabba to receive merits form the relatives.
However, when that gandhabba comes out of the dead body, he becomes disoriented for several days (let us assume it is a “he”). First there is no realization that one has lost the “solid body”. Contrary to what we believe, one may not feel much pain at death. Sometime back, I watched a youtube video of a rebirth story of a person who died in an automobile accident. The reborn child says he remembers his car getting hit by a large truck, and that next moment he was watching the scene of the accident from above. He said he did not feel any pain. Maybe he died instantly.
The following is not from his story, but is a generic description given by Waharaka Thero. A “new gandhbba” tries to talk to the humans around and of course they are not aware of him. If he wants to get somewhere, he gets there instantly. So, most people who die of accidents just go home instantly to their surprise. Then he tries to get a drink, but of course there are no sold hands to hold a cup. So, it is a confusing time period for the new gandhabba. But other gandhabbas teach him how to function in that world, called “para loka” by the Buddha. It exists “side-by-side” with our human world, but we cannot see that world.
The bottom line here is that it takes the new gandhabba about seven days to settle down in his new world. Until then his mind is too agitated to receive any merits. That is the reason for waiting for 7 days before trying to “give merits” or pattidana. For a discussion on pattidana, see, “Transfer of Merits (Pattidāna) – How Does it Happen?“.
It is likely that one with a dvihetuka patisandhi may not be able to fully get rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi. For someone to really believe in something, the REASONS for believing must be become clear.
– That is really the difference between blind faith and true faith based on understanding.This is sort of like the following: Suppose one learns a complex mathematical procedure, but the understanding is not complete. Then he/she may be able to solve some problems, but will not be able to solve a problem that requires the full understanding.
So, one with a dvihetuka patisandhi may not have the wisdom to fully get rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi, and thereby to comprehend Tilakkhana.
However, I MUST point out that this issue of determining whether one has tihetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi is very TRICKY.
The story of Ven. Culapanthaka from the Tipitaka is an excellent example. He almost disrobed because he could not even memorize a single gāthā after trying hard for months. His older brother, who was already an Arahant, became frustrated and asked him to disrobe. He apparently thought that Culapanthaka had a dvihetuka birth.
But with Buddha’s help, Ven. Culapanthaka was able to attain the Arahanthood in a day, and simultaneously developed abhinna powers too.
So, it is best not to worry about this issue and strive to the best of one’s ability. Even if one has a dvihetuka birth, one can make a lot of progress and make conditions for the next patisandhi to be a tihetuka one.
These are the basic rules that can be used to settle these questions:
- Whether it is tihetuka or dvihetuka is determined at the moment of grasping a new bhava at a cuit-patisandhi moment.
- Then that (tihetuka or dvihetuka) is not changed during that whole bhava. For example, if one is born a human with tihetuka patisandhi, it will not change to dvihetuka (and vice versa), when that person is born a human many times during that bhava.
- There is a third category called “ahetuka”, which is the lowest. Beings in the four realms (and even a few humans) are born with ahetuka (which does not mean without hetu, but just means with “no good hetu”). Those humans born with ahetuka patisandhi are mentally retarded, and thus can be recognized.
- What kind of a birth (ahetuka, dvihetuka, tvihetuka) is determined by the kamma beeja (or the kamma vipaka) responsible for the new bhava.
- Therefore, even a human with tihetuka patisandhi can be born with an ahetuka patisandhi in the next bhava. Conversely, an animal could be born with a tihetuka human in the next bhava.
- Those are changed permanently only with magga phala. Of course anyone with a magga phala will always be reborn with a tihetuka patisandhi.
Please ask questions if anything is not clear.
Siebe: This post describes the actual process that makes it possible for one to remove anusaya at the magga citta.
Removal of anusaya does not happen magically at the magga citta. One has to make an effort, and the post describes how it is done.
Siebe had posted this in a new thread. Please don’t open new threads when there is already a thread open. I am pasting that post here and will remove the new thread that he started.
Siebe’s question:
This refers to the post: https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concepts/gati-bhava-jati/difference-between-tanha-and-upadana/
There it said:
“Gradually controlling upādāna is the way to reduce bad gati, cultivate good gati, and to eventually get rid tanhā.
Removal of tanhā is the same as removing anusaya.
To be more effective in this, one must also reduce avijjā by learning Dhamma, and specifically by comprehending Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta nature)”.I wanted to share this with you: I have learned from studying some works of Nina van Gorkom on Abhidhamma that anuasaya can only be uprooted by magga citta. One can decrease the power of anusaya by controlling them when they become active but not uproot them by controlling them. Uprooting must be done by magga citta. In the stages of sotapanna etc. it is magga citta which uprootes certain anusaya.
She says this in ‘Introduction to the Abhidhamma’, page 34 and ‘Abhidhamma in daily life’, page 157.
So the idea seems that we can make some changes in gati by controlling, by not feeding bad gati for example, but in the end we cannot really uproot tanha and anuasaya by controlling them.
Do you agree?
Siebe
I have published a new post, “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna” to further clarify the issues raised by upekkha100.
These are critical points to grasp. Thanks to upekkha100 for raising them.
Hi Akvan,
“1) Just want to clarify the difference between thanha and upadana. Is it that thanha is more automatic and upadana is more conscious / deliberate?”
Yes. That is exactly right.
Regarding 2:
In the case of a sense input, the PS cycle does not start with avijja, but tanha, as shown in the figure.However, multiple PS cycles can run starting at the mano sankhara to vaci sankhara stage. This is also shown in the figure.
-The key to Anapana/Satipatthana is to break that and to stop more vaci sankhara.
-So, basically the idea is to stop more of those PS cycles starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara” from running again and again in between the “tanha” and “upadana” steps shown in the figure.This post was written to clarify issues raised by upekkha100 in the discussion forum: “Difference between Tanha and Upadana“.
In the “1. General Information and Updates” I wrongly stated that this post is related to the more recent 3-4 posts (I just revised that). They are somewhat related too, but one should really read the discussion topic: “Difference between Tanha and Upadana“.
y not asked: “How has birth been taken in the sense of’ Does one suffer when a baby is born to the family?’ etc. and the suffering taken in regard to those not experiencing birth?”
All jati eventually lead to suffering. That is the deeper message in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
I was just explaining the verse, “yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhāṃ” in that older post: “If one does not get what one likes, that is suffering”.
– That older post, “Does the First Noble Truth Describe only Suffering?“ focused on the concept embedded in that verse in a mundane sense, i.e., to covey the basic idea: “If one does not get what one likes, that is suffering”.
– In the LONG RUN all jati lead to suffering.However, with the birth of a baby, eventual net result is suffering. This may not be obvious to many. But it will become clear as one proceeds on the Path. In fact, it becomes clear when one gets close to the Anagami stage.
This is why the Buddha said, “This Dhamma is difficult to understand”. However, things will become clear as we proceed. The three posts that I published in recent days are an attempt to get to some key concepts. I am planning to publish two more. Please read them over and over as needed (especially after reading the next post, which may be out today).
No, Siebe. Attainment of a jhana is an anantariya kamma. It WILL lead to birth in a brahma realm.
However, if one loses that ANARIYA jhana before the time of the death, then he/she will not be born in a brahma realm. That means one’s mindset would have been corrupted.
– However, if that person is not able to get into jhana while on the death bed due to a physical problem (like pain due to an injury), that would not be a problem; he/she will still be born in a brahma realm.Of course, an Ariya jhana will never be lost. Even then one may not be able to get into jhana while on the death bed due to a physical problem.
The best example is Devadatta. He had attained not only anariya jhana but also super normal (iddhi) powers. But he lost all that once he started planning to take the life of the Buddha, and ended up in an apaya.
Yes. Thank you. I just revised the earlier post a bit. I was not referring to the baby being born in that first post.
When a baby is born, only the baby and the mother really suffer. Everyone else is happy.
Even the mother’s suffering is overcome by the mentally made-up “assada”: the fact that now she has her own child.
– Also, the release from the pain gives rise to happiness too. But during child birth it is suffering that she experiences.If a human can attain even an anariya jhana, that means he/she has a tihetuka patisandhi.
Now, when a human who can attain a jhana dies, he/she WILL BE born in a brahma realm (according to which jhanic state it is).
– Therefore, brahmas have tihetuka patisandhi, by definition.
– Cultivating jhana is an anantariya kamma (to the good side): upon death in this life one WILL be born in a brahma realm, even if he/she has leftover kammic energy in the present human bhava.Devas do not necessarily have tihetuka patisandhi, I believe. A human can be born in a deva realm because of meritorious deeds (especially giving).
