How can vedana paccaya phassa?

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    • #20412

      I hope this question is addressed correctly to this sub-forum.

      The forward version of patticca samuppada does seem to be logical, i.e. avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnanna and so on.

      However, what is harder for me to understand is the reverse order of PS.

      How can:

      1) vedana paccaya phassa?
      2) phassa paccaya salayatana?
      3) jati paccaya bhava?
      4) bhava paccaya upadana?
      5) marana paccaya jati?
      6) upadana paccaya tanha?

      Perhaps there are more. It would be really helpful if these could be explained in detail.

      Thank you very much in advance for providing your answers to my questions. I very much prefer to thank in advance as nowadays I find that I sometimes have problems logging into the forum, although at other times it is fine. I realize that if this persists I may be unable to give thanks in a timely manner, but you will always have my gratitude for participating.

    • #20417

      The reverse order of patticca samuppada is to how how the suffering ends when the root cause of avijja is removed.

      Avijja nirodha sankhara nirodha
      sankhara nirodha vinnana nirodha


      Jati nirodha jara, marana, soka, parideva,… nirodha.

    • #20419

      With no offense, actually I am asking about annamanna paccaya, specifically the backward condition, in which the links in PS give rise to the preceding link, in addition to the successive link, e.g. nama rupa paccaya vinnana.

    • #20420

      I see. But you don’t refer to that as “reverse order patticca samuppada (PS)”.

      The annamanna paccaya is at work only for the first several steps in PS.

      It does not come into play starting with: “salāyatana paccayā phassa” step.

      I guess I had not specifically mentioned that in the post on annamanna paccaya.
      Will add a statement to that post sometime today.

    • #20421

      Thank you, Lal, for your helpful response.

    • #21018

      In one of Lal’s earlier posts, I think it was mentioned that tanha arises from asavas and that avijja and asavas strengthen each other. It is unfortunate that I cannot recall the title of that post nor can I find it even when I do my best to search for it.

      It was also mentioned in the post “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāshtaka” under #8 that “…wherever there is avijjā there is tanhā, and vice versa.” Does this happen only because avijja gives rise to tanha, even though tanha does not give rise to avijja?

      Since the annamanna paccaya does not work for vedana paccaya tanha, can PS indicate the pathway in which tanha and asavas strengthen avijja?

      Thank you very much for your responses in advance.

    • #21035

      “In one of Lal’s earlier posts, I think it was mentioned that tanha arises from asavas and that avijja and asavas strengthen each other.”

      Is it this post: “Gathi (Gati), Anusaya, and Āsava

      I put in “asava tanha” in the “Search box” and this is one of the posts that came up.

      Tanha and avijja go together. Both grow together and are eliminated together at the Arahant stage.

      They are related to lobha and moha respectively. The other root cause dosa is a manifestation of lobha. So, when lobha and moha (or tanha and avijja) are eliminated all three root causes are eliminated.

      P.S. Siebe just sent me a reference sutta that explains this:
      34. Causes (AN 3.34)
      Thank you, Siebe!

    • #21051

      Hi Lal,

      I think it is this post:”Gati to Bhava to Jāti – Ours to Control“.

      The information is found under the section: What Are Āsāvās (Cravings)?

      Specifically: …explained that indeed āsāvās contribute to avijjā, and vice versa. and: …four of the eight “basic units of matter” in a suddhāshtaka arise due to avijjā and the other four due to tanhā (which arise due to āsāva). Avijjā and tanhā are called “bhava-mūla” for this reason.

      Thank you very much once again for always helping to answer my queries!

    • #21055

      Good to hear that you found the post, firewns.

      Thanks for providing the link.

    • #33245
      [email protected]

      Hi Lal, about your 2017 post on Vedanta. You gave an example “ A good example is a pain one feels when sitting cross-legged at meditation retreats. Just by saying “I feel this vēdanā” will not of any use. That vēdanā can be removed by shifting one’s posture. I have seen some instructors, advised people, to just bear the pain saying that it will go away. It may go away because the nerves may become numb. That is not good in the long term “

      When a meditators starts meditating, it’s possible that the body is not used to staying still, and as a result experience all sorts of discomfort. If the person reacts to every discomfort by shifting position, that might be disruptive to him/herself and in a class might disrupt others (noise created ) during posture changing. Finally the most comfortable position is lying flat on the floor, which is not the ideal position to meditate unless the aim is to sleep. Based on your example above and from your experience, do you suggest meditators should change positions quickly without perseverance? how would you advise meditators experiencing pain/discomfort ?
      My understanding is that, as a practitioner, i would try to observe the pain objectively, trying to investigate that the pain is not I, not mine, not self. It exist as consequence of a physical body, the leg will be numb but it’s not going to be paralysed. I would continue meditating (perservere), if however after a period of time, if it becomes unbearable, I would then switch positions or make minor adjustments to try to relax. Ultimately, meditation should be comfortable, but being too comfortable might lead to sleepiness.

      I am really glad that I found this website, which have given me lots of insight into my practice, and the difference between self view and self perception was excellently discussed.

    • #33246

      The whole idea of meditation is to contemplate.

      What is the need to sit down cross-legged? Why not sit in a chair?

      Of course, for those who have practiced sitting cross-legged, and can stay comfortably, that is fine.
      – But there is no REQUIREMENT to sit like that.
      – I have seen many people suffer trying to stay cross-legged. They cannot contemplate anything other than their discomfort!

    • #33251

      This forum thread reminded me of another thread:

      Kammic Energy Leads to Consciousness

      In that thread I asked about the difference between “life” and “inert matter”, and in Lal’s response there was a side comment:

      “EVERYTHING has its origins in kammic energy (via Paticca Samuppada)
      – However, it is not necessary to focus on that right now.”

      So the below explains why that is the case:

      “…four of the eight “basic units of matter” in a suddhāshtaka arise due to avijjā and the other four due to tanhā…”


    • #33252

      Per Lang’s comment:

      Yes. That is not discussed in any text, and not EXPLICITLY discussed even in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka of the Tipitaka.
      – Waharaka Thero had discussed that in a couple of discourses.

      Basically, the Paticca Samuppada process splits to two at the “namarupa paccaya salayatana” step.
      – One set of salayatana are those of LIVING BEINGS (hadaya vatthu/pasada rupa).
      – The other set leads to the arising of external rupa.

      But it is not necessary to understand the extra process. We just need to understand how different types of bhava (and jati) arise for a living being.
      – That just depends on the particular kamma and DOES NOT belong to a “self”.

      I will discuss that further in the next post.

      P.S. We started that discussion with the last post, “Sakkāya Diṭṭhi – Wrong View of “Me” and “Mine”

    • #33255
      [email protected]

      Thanks Lal, for your comments which have always brought a new perspective in a very positive way.

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