November 23, 2018 at 2:21 pm #20369
AN1.310 says: “Bhikkhus, 1 do not see even a single thing on account of which unarisen wrong view arises and arisen wrong view increases so
much as careless attention. For one of careless attention, unarisen
wrong view arises and arisen wrong view increases.”
This is from Bodhi’s translation.
Here is a link to that sutta:
careless attention is explained in Abhidhamma book Vibhanga §936 (the Book of the Analyses, PTS 1969). In my own words: seeing permanence in what is impermanent, seeing happiness in what is suffering, seeing self in what is not-self, seeing the attrativeness in what is unattractive, the turning of the mind, the repeatedly turning of the mind, the knowing, attention of what is opposite to the truth.
When explained this way, is careless attention not the same as wrong view? How do you see the difference between careless attention and wrong view?
November 23, 2018 at 4:21 pm #20373LalKeymaster
“careless attention” is used in there for the translation of “yoniso manasikara”.
Here is the full sutta:
“Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekadhammampi samanupassāmi yena anuppannā vā micchādiṭṭhi uppajjati uppannā vā micchādiṭṭhi pavaḍḍhati yathayidaṃ, bhikkhave, ayonisomanasikāro. Ayoniso, bhikkhave, manasi karoto anuppannā ceva micchādiṭṭhi uppajjati uppannā ca micchādiṭṭhi pavaḍḍhatī”ti.
The basic idea stated in the sutta is:
“Bhikkhus, unarisen (new) wrong views arise and arisen wrong views become worse due to none other than ayoniso mansaikara“.
The critical thing to realize is that ayoniso manasikara is much more deeper than than just “careless attention”.
Ayoniso manasikara is of course the opposite of yoniso manasikara.
A given person with no comprehension of Dhamma/adhamma (what is moral/what is not) can pay his/her utmost attention and still have those problems: arising of new wrong views and the growth of existing wrong views.
Yoniso manasikara explained at: “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala“.
One should always be mindful of not doing dasa akusala, and learn correct Buddha Dhamma. That is the closest to acting with yoniso manasikara. As one makes progress, one will have better yoniso manasikara.
November 24, 2018 at 6:30 am #20374
There is a list of wrong views, for example in MN117
5. “And what, bhikkhus, is wrong view? ‘There is nothing
given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of
good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother,
no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no  good
and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have
realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this
world and the other world.’ This is wrong view.
This is from the translation of Bodhi.
In fact the above wrong views are the views of Ajita Kesakambali, a teacher who lived at the same time as the Buddha. He was considered to be a materialist.
Then there are listed 62 wrong views in DN1
There are also wrong view of other teachers who lived at the time of the Buddha, like, Makkhali Gosala, Kaccayana, Kassapa, Belathiputta, and Jain founder Nigantha Nataputta.
But can’t we say that seeing happiness in what is suffering, seeing attractiveness in what is repulsive, seeing self in what is not self (like the body seeing as ‘I am this body’) and seeing permanence in what is impermanent is in fact wrong view too? Vibhanga seems to say this is careless attention, but isn’t it wrong view too? Isn’t this kind of misunderstanding of the characteristic of life the most important kind of wrong view?
November 24, 2018 at 7:40 am #20375LalKeymaster
“But can’t we say that seeing happiness in what is suffering, seeing attractiveness in what is repulsive, seeing self in what is not self (like the body seeing as ‘I am this body’) and seeing permanence in what is impermanent is in fact wrong view too?”
Yes. In the end they are related to the 10 types of wrong views you listed.
What do you think “seeing happiness in what is suffering” means? (or the other ones that you mentioned). Let us start with some examples you can think about.
November 24, 2018 at 9:48 am #20378
But “careless attention” has also to do with Satipatanna Sutta ? Which means that being focused in everyday life should be “channelled” by a good understanding of Tilakhana ?
November 24, 2018 at 10:34 am #20379y notParticipant
-“is careless attention not the same as wrong view”
Reading the whole of the sutta:
Ayonisomanasikara gives rise to and strenghtens micchaditthi
Yonisomanasikara gives rise to and strenghtens sammaditthi
But the immediate, the direct cause of what type of destination follows (sugata or dugata) is ditthi (samma or michha), the manasikara (yoniso or ayoniso) being only the means towards ditthi.
So, as I read, ‘careless attention’ is not the same as wrong view. Yet, ditthi, of either type, in turn lead to manisikara, yoniso or ayoniso , what Lal expounds as Dhamma/kusala and aDhamma/akusala.
Correct me anyone if that is not quite right.
November 24, 2018 at 11:58 am #20381ChristianParticipant
This is how I train Anapanasati and Satipatthana. When I figure it out how to do it – it was a life changer. You won’t believe even RESULTS of such simple practice. I just can believe that modern Buddhist waste time for breath meditation, focusing or anything like that – it’s waste of time and just make you tired, frustrated and almost without results long term.
When I practice Anapanasati with Satipatthana I feel almost instantly bliss in the chest and in the body once my mind approach and do this practice but I know it must to be done right and figure it out. Pure Dhamma have a lot of materials but there need to be exact methods for people to follow and because of my experience, it’s easy for me to make out methods out of that information. Here is how it goes:
First, you need to see how your mind attention moves from one thought to another. Start to get into a habit of observing mind (this is just pre-practice).
Once you can see how your mind attention moves from one thought to another you apply a filter as you would investigate a person for weapon or ticket. If thought will stick to your mind or your mind attention move to exact thought which will find attractive then you investigate in context is it’s a good thought (moral), bad (immoral) or neutral. Once you realize nature of such thought your mind and body will transform instantly or with some time at beginning as your mind will realize you are not one to play with so it will discard bad thoughts on the automatic basis. Once you realize what nature of thought it is then you watch your reaction towards those thoughts in the same way. Whatever it’s good, bad or neutral reaction towards that. Once you get into the flow with it you will feel naturally blissful, happy or at first like cleansed from the inside and light like a feather which it will develop to a very happy state of mind which will permeate the body and you will end up in the first jhana. Once you will be just close to the jhana you contemplate meanings of Anicca nature and it will get you into deeper and permanent states.
I understand all those questions that you want to know and clarify everything but clarification cannot be substituted to the practice. Once you have a clear view on that then you need to go that clear way once explained. If you only keep pursuing concepts which you do not understand and clarify them constantly then what is the point of knowing to walk you need to use legs? Next step is to use them to walk and what you clarified you need to put into practice.
November 24, 2018 at 12:42 pm #20382
Basically you’re right (Christian) however another individual may have more or less different ways.
“Paying attention to thoughts…”:shouldn’t one also pay attention to “bodily” sensations, feelings ans states of mind (the 4 frames thus with toughts included)? I think so.
AS for my previous comment i think it will be clearer if i remove the question marks.
November 24, 2018 at 1:16 pm #20385y notParticipant
“First, you need to see how your mind attention moves from one thought to another.”
So there are three factors here: 1) YOU (who needs to see) 2) YOUR MIND (attention) and 3) the THOUGHTS that arise one after another. Besides the distinction between brain and mind.
We are all familiar with ‘watching our thoughts’ and so may engage in Anapanasati and Satipatthana. We fail at times and the attention of the mind remains riveted on a particular thought we know we should discard. Then we have failed in only one thing : diverting our attention (because the undesired thoughts are at that time one with the mind, they ARE the mind); so it is the temporarily contaminated mind we are in a struggle with. That simplifies matters somewhat.
Now if it is the gandhabba (where the seat of the mind is) that is involved in doing Anapanasati and Satipatthana, controlling the mind, then the mind must be other than the gandhabba. Or gandhabba and mind will be synonymous,and it will be the gandhabba (the mind) that is trying to control and in time change its own gati. Moreover, on the logical and reasoning plane, the work is done through the medium of the brain, which ‘feeds’ the conclusions to the hadaya vatthu in the gandhabba, where all that is done for better or for worse is registered and which will in time determine one’s destination after death.
And if this were not enough, whoever it is who controls the mind, is, in the final analysis, anatta, a boat to be discarded on reaching the other shore.
November 24, 2018 at 3:19 pm #20387
Y not “And if this were not enough, whoever it is who controls the mind, is, in the final analysis, anatta, a boat to be discarded on reaching the other shore.”
That which controls (but here in the good sense) the mind , through a good understanding of Tilakhana, is natta, not anatta.
Anatta is the fruit of an out-of-control mind, which by its turn will nourish anatta, namely helplessness and/or ego centered behavior.
November 24, 2018 at 4:41 pm #20389ChristianParticipant
You seem to make up confused ideas on the basis what you learned and read here (and before). For your own sake and sanity do not follow this process of the mind because it will leave you depressed and in a very negative state of mind/feeling.
Just follow the instructions in a day and then when your mind will come back to sanity and lightness it will be easier to understand what is explained on this site.
You will not think your way out of sansara without doing proper work with your mind, directly.
There is just something very negative/painful coming out of you when I read you, sorry. :(
November 27, 2018 at 10:36 am #20461
November 24, 2018 at 2:18 pm #20386
I belief understanding tilakkhana, at least to a beginners level, means one has become more realistic, less dreaming, with less high expactations of life. It is like one discards the inner childishness. The inner childishness, the naif part of our understanding of life.
When the Buddha saw the messangers, the death person, the sick person, the old person, his naif understanding of life was suddenly challenged. This is what the messangers do with people today too.
But often there is the attitude we have to go further with life and our ambitions, plans and forget the messangers.
Anyway with a basis understanding of tilakkhana, i feel, one also understands that craving can never ever be helpful. One understands that all those present habitual forces of mine-making, greed, of hate, of conceit, jaloesy, etc. it is of no use at all. Still, it is there so one has to deal with it in a wise manner.
-Seeing permanence in the impermanent can be seen when we think we are in controll. Everything is like we wishes it to be. The computer functions. The body is not ill. The car has no defects. One feels like everything goes well and all is under control. At that moment one sees permanence in the impermanent. One has a sense of safety while in fact there is still unsafety. This is a very common tendency, right? But it will all end, also this status quo will change. The body will become ill, the computer will crash etc. But one cannot denie that the deluded view of being in controll comes with a nice feeling of happiness.
We like things to be permanent and stabel. No crashes of computer, no illnesses of the body, no problems. This tendency is very strong with me.
I am frightened of how life is. During the years, i have become more and more frightened because i have experienced nothing can really be trusted or relied upon. One has to find a mode in which one does not resist this fact of life. No one can help you with this, is my experience, because everybody in the world is denying this fact of life of tries to comfort you and tries to let you see it is not that bad. The Buddha does not. He saw that it is indeed the truth that there is no refuge in this world of conditioned phenomena. There is no safety to be found. So, the anxiety, stress, fears are not bad messangers. It shows there is understanding, but still limited ofcourse, because the refuge is still not yet seen or found. That’s the work to do.
Seeing self in what is not -self is, for example, when one sees feelings, the body, energy, habitual forces, odeurs, tastes, visuals, etc. mental formations etc as “this is mine, this is who i am, this is my self’.
Seeing attractiveness in what is not attractive can be seen when we think something will make us happy while it can’t. A nice picture Lal uses is that of bait. We do not see the hook. Therefor it looks attractive but in fact it is very unattractive. The happiness of sense-pleasure also look very attractive when you suffer. For one suffering the happiness that come with drug, liquor, porn, computergames, candy etc look very attractive. The Buddha did not denie this according the sutta’s. It is because there is happiness in experiences that beings become stained. But ofcourse, those things are not really attractive, they only look that way. It’s gonna turn out bad when we take the bait.
Seeing happiness in what is suffering can relate to the former, but i think it can also relate to any existence. Some will see happiness in deva existence, but probably others will see suffering in any existence. That i have lived many lives, and have shed many tears and blood, left many bodies is not really appealing to me (yet). I know, some students become motivated to escape samsara when they think about such matters, but i notice, to be honest, it is not in my system.
November 24, 2018 at 3:33 pm #20388
What a struggle, yours, but i’ve faith that your effort will bring good results in this very life and in the next ones.
” So, the anxiety, stress, fears are not bad messangers.” They are not bad messengers because you are aware of their roots, aren’t you ?
November 25, 2018 at 6:05 am #20404
Do i see the roots of anxiety, stress, fears?
I am not ready with this. But what do you see as the root Yeos?
November 25, 2018 at 8:27 am #20406firewnsParticipant
I think I see fear, grasping and resistance in your posts.
In your posts, you are often seeking answers to confirm your hopes and expectations for a better future, while somehow trying to maintain the status quo, and resisting the need for major upheavals. These stem from deep within you, and seem very strong and persistent.
Perhaps on some level you are aware of, or suspect, how futile all this (your current approach) is, and you have begun to despair of ever finding the light.
Please continue to stay with us, and believe in us, or more specifically the Teachings of The Buddha.
The Buddha, I think, taught that there were three facets to tanha. All these stem from strong, perverted desires and will inevitably result in much suffering.
They are 1)desire for sense pleasures, 2)desire for existence (in any of the 31 realms), and 3) aversion. I think you are currently experiencing much aversion for the unsatisfactory aspects of life, while at the same time craving for sense pleasures and existences that will give you these pleasures. These are all manifestations of tanha. Perhaps you may be surprised that strong aversion is also a type of tanha, but it is.
The Buddha preached the Middle Way, and it is applicable in different ways. Try to approach your life circumstances with equanimity. It is easier said than done, I know, but we have to start somewhere.
When fortunate things happen to you, do not be overly elated. When unfortunate things happen to you, do not overly despair. Do not worry about the future, if you have done the best you could at the time. Whatever will be, will be. When planning for the well being of your future, do not be too concerned if your plans will come to fruition or not.
You may think it is not in your nature to think and act like that. But have you considered that through uncountable maha kalpas, we have been planning and striving and plotting and scheming (plotting and scheming in those lifetimes in which we were predominantly immoral) for our worldly self-benefit and it has all come to naught at the end of the lifetimes? What has inevitably followed us, however, has been our kamma, whether kusala, punna, akusala, or papa to bring fortune or misfortune upon us.
Since we have all lived for so long in uncountable rebirths and are likely to do so again in the future if we do not do something about it, let us leave all the striving, planning and dreaming to future lives. There are far more important things to be done for now, in this very life. For all of us have been emperors, empresses, rich men or women, and so on in the past and will probably continue to do so in the future, so there is really no need to worry so much about worldly success, fame or fortune. We do need to be able to delay our gratification though! :)
Since the world is highly seductive and has the anicca nature, non-Ariya human beings who have a lot of javana power in their sankaras are almost always being seduced and baited into committing immoral actions and inevitably spend most of their time in the apayas.
If what you are feeling is frightful enough, have you considered that things could be infinitely worse in Avici Hell and the other hells, as well as in the preta or asura realms or having the life of an animal with much uncertainty in their lives? Furthermore, it is very hard to get out of the apayas once we are drawn into them. Furthermore, even if we are fortunate enough to have the extremely rare chance of being born a human, it would still be extremely rare to encounter a Buddha Sasana, as there are maha kalpas where there is not even a Buddha to help us see the real nature of existence. When we think both our lives and deaths are very uncertain in the future, we begin to see how urgent it is to embark on the Path, to at least become a Sotapanna.
Many people feel tension, unhappiness, stress or emptiness in their lives, even when things are seemingly going smoothly for them. This is because of the cravings all of them have. I believe it is far more important to achieve peace and happiness than to be successful in worldly, material terms yet be miserable.
How can we start? Try to perform more dana, sila and bhavana. In terms of dana, practise giving with no expectations of getting anything in return. You could give of your money, possessions, time, moral support, smiles, advice, etc. Refrain from committing immoral acts and do more moral acts; learn more Buddhadhamma and practise accordingly. Gradually, more happiness will start to creep into our lives if we persist for some time.
I have often wondered what it would feel like to be an Arahant or Buddha. For the Buddha, He had achieved all that was Noble and there was ‘nothing else to be done’. Such states are extremely wonderful. Perhaps you could imagine: If you had achieved everything that was worthwhile to be done and there was nothing else you needed to do, how would you feel? Try to bring such a scenario to your mind and immerse yourself in that state or feeling for a while. Try to return to that state or feeling whenever you feel stressed or frightened.
Hope all this helps.
November 27, 2018 at 4:30 am #20457
Everybody has his own personal history and stuff to deal with, right. I experience trust or faith is very important to develop. Without faith one will fear life and death. Thinking about dying is very important because one can imagine that one has overcome a lot of kilesa’s, but at time of death, things can turn out to be differently. Strong forces (anusaya) will probably take over.
But faith is not easy to develop and is lost easily. There are a lot reasons to loose faith. Faith in people, faith in life, faith in your own mind, faith in institutions, faith in body etc. Loosing faith in ones own mind is very difficult to overcome is my own experience. I keep practising and do not give up taking refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.
June 27, 2022 at 5:11 am #38328LayDhammaFollowerParticipant
Have you considered that through uncountable maha kalpas, we have been planning and striving and plotting and scheming (plotting and scheming in those lifetimes in which we were predominantly immoral) for our worldly self-benefit and it has all come to naught at the end of the lifetimes?
A very scary and true observation.
We have never been able to fulfill our six senses with any arammana.
November 25, 2018 at 8:51 am #20407firewnsParticipant
Desire to enjoy sense pleasures, worldly success and fortune will inevitably hold some people back from learning and practising Buddhadhamma.
What I really wanted to stress was that these things should not be overly indulged in. If one strongly feels one is missing out, one can always remind oneself that there will probably be many future lives in which we have the opportunity to pursue these worldly things. For, after all, Nibbana is not easily achieved without much time and effort. It would probably take place over a span of at least many lifetimes.
What is critically important, now, though, is to embark on the Path. Over the course of innumerable aeons, I think, it is much, much rarer to make progress on the Path than to achieve these markings of worldly success, or to enjoy such sense pleasures.
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