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Thanks, y not. But I see a list of suttas, not a sutta.
In any case, the sutta reference that I gave gives the meaning of the word “tathāgata”. No need to analyze it again. People have funny ways of interpreting Pali words: “Thus Gone One”?
Hello Aniduan,
Yes. Aggañña Sutta does not discuss “Cakkavāla” and “antakkappa” (“world systems” and “the four phases of a kappa”).
As I mentioned in that post, some information come from other suttas. There is no single sutta that covers all that material.
Aggañña Sutta mainly discusses the “reverse evolution process” starting with humans with fine bodies who “descended” from brahma realms.
– Basically, by the time their lifetime in those higher realms are exhausted, they gradually come down to lower realms, as their “hidden gati” (“anusaya”) come back.
– With time, humans also “descend” to lower realms (such as animal realm), when the Earth also changes and vegetation suitable for animal life appear gradually. It takes multi-millions of years.
– It is interesting to note that scientists have now traced back the appearance of bacteria to about 4 billion years ago (the age of Earth is estimated to be about 4.5 billion years).P.S. After bacteria came vegetation and small animals to be followed by more complex animals. So, that phase of the evolution of animals is similar to what is proposed by Darwin.
– The main difference is that humans first appeared with fine bodies (without sex organs); their bodies got more “dense” with time; sex organs appeared next, etc.
– Of course, the initial births of humans were “opapatika” (without coming out of a womb).
– The complex part is that “reverse progression” of humans.I cannot find that sutta. If you can provide a link to the Pāli sutta, I can take a look at it. The way to provide a link is explained here:
How to Reply to a Forum Question
– Please provide a link to the Pali sutta always.In any case, I have seen translations of the word tathāgata as “Thus Gone One”.
But the meaning of the word tathāgata is explained in the “Loka Sutta (Iti 112)“.I have made a few “improvements” to the English translation there:
“Bhikkhus, the world has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the Tathāgata is released from the world. The origin of the world (with suffering) has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the causes for the origin of the world have been understood and by the Tathāgata. The cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the cessation of the world has been realized by the Tathāgata. The path leading to the cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the path leading to the cessation of the world has been followed by the Tathāgata.
“Bhikkhus, in the world with its devas, māras, and brahmās, with its recluses and brahmins, among humankind with its princes and people, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought, and reflected upon by the mind—that is fully understood by the Tathāgata: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
“Bhikkhus, from the night when the Tathāgata awakened to unsurpassed full enlightenment until the night when he passes away into the Nibbāna-element with no residue left, whatever he speaks and explains—all that is correct and not otherwise: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
“As the Tathāgata says, so he does; as the Tathāgata does, so he says: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
“In the world with its devas, māras, and brahmās, with its recluses and brahmins, among humankind with its princes and people, the Tathāgata is the conqueror, unvanquished, all-seer, wielding power: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.”
By knowledge of the whole world,
The whole world as it truly is,
He is released from all the world,
From all the world he is unattached.The all-conquering heroic sage,
Freed from every bond is he;
He has reached that perfect peace,
Nibbāna which is free from fear.Rid of taints, he is enlightened,
Trouble-free, with doubts destroyed,
Reached the final end of deeds,
Released by clinging’s full destruction.The Enlightened One, the Lord,
The best is he, unsurpassed;
For in the world together with its devas
He set the Dhamma-wheel in motion.Thus those devas and human beings,
Gone for refuge to the Buddha,
On meeting him pay homage to him,
Upon being released from suffering.Tamed, of the tamed he is the best;
Calmed, of the calmed he is the seer;
Freed, of the freed he is the foremost;
Crossed, of the crossed he is the chief.Thus do they pay him due homage,
The greatest freed from suffering:
In the world together with its devas
There is no equal.I don’t think that statement is correct.
It is true that those who CAN remember past lives are basically children under the age of 12 years or so.
– As a child grows, memories of the past life fade away.In many of those accounts, they died when they were not necessarily children, but at older ages too; “Evidence for Rebirth“.
P.S. However, it is true that it is rare that the person died at old age in the previous life (most cases are of dying young or at middle age). This is also something to do with the memory getting weak at old age. So, the gandhabba that comes out may not have a good memory.
Tobias wrote: “But 10 billion years for the destruction phase is much. Do I missunderstand something?”
I do not want to speculate on those things. But that time starts when the Sun (or another star in the 10,000 systems) starts getting hot. If you Google you can see that it is a gradual process. Of course, the last phase of the actual supernova is very short.
Here we are talking in terms of what is currently known to science. That picture keeps changing.
On the other point, you are right. It should be 1200 billion years or 1.2 trillion years. I just corrected it. Thanks!
upekkha100 seems serious about getting rid of kama raga. That is a noble goal.
I am highlighting some of the key statements from the above posts and providing some suggestions:“So the following is for those in that third camp who want to put Samma Vayama into practise in regards to reducing kama raga through will power(viriya)”.
That is a good resolve. However, it could be better if it is used with two other components.
– In order to get rid of a habit, it would help if one can see the bad consequences. For example, smoking can cause lung cancer.
– In order to see the bad consequences of kama raga, one should see the bad consequences of them. That is why I suggested the following section earlier:
Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana
– When one starts contemplating on those concepts, one will start seeing that what we normally consider to be “pleasures” have hidden dangers. Just like a fish cannot see the dangers in biting a tasty looking bait, normally humans cannot see the dangers in sense pleasures.“I am content with bland food, just for sake of eating/sustenance and staying alive. I went from “live to eat” to “eat to live.”
That is a good sign. You may be starting to comprehend some of these aspects. In my case, my habit of having a alcoholic beverage at the end of the gradually went away, without me really “enforcing it”. But “enforcement” can and should be used to some extent too.
“Compared to the other sense pleasures, I can quite easily quit body pleasures and nose pleasures, cold turkey if need be. And now, I think I can do this for food as well, without missing it so much. But I can’t say the same for beautiful sights. And especially not for music”.
That is good too. Now you have narrowed down your weaknesses to just two.
“So for someone in my situation/with my cravings, what time-limit do you think I should set for music listening(5, 10, 20 minutes)?”
Yes. I think that is good plan.
So, basically if you carry out your plan with a firm determination, together with learning Dhamma, you will be able to succeed.
In the Sabbāsava Sutta, the Buddha listed seven steps to remove the āsavas or cravings:
- Removal by clear vision of the nature of this world. The more one understands Tilakkhana (especially one’s inability to maintain things to one’s satisfaction), less of “sheer effort” (or will power) is needed to overcome kama raga.
- Removal by the restrained use of the senses: not to over-indulge in the senses).
- Removal by good and frequent associations: for example, with good friends and good deeds. Here, good friends are not those who do “partying” and having a good time. They are those who live a simple, moral life, and pursue Dhamma.
- Removal by tolerance and patience. For example, even if one is tempted to steal because one is hungry, one should contemplate the consequences and bear the hunger.
- Removal by staying clear of “bad influences and environments”. One needs to avoid bad friends, bad locations for living (due to floods, bad neighbors, etc), avoiding unsuitable times to go out, etc.
- Removal by getting rid of certain things to lessen the burden on the mind. One needs to get rid of bad thoughts that come to mind, for example, for excessive sense pleasure, hate, etc. Focusing too much on making money or “collecting stuff” is actually a burden on the mind, since one has to worry about their safety.
- Removal by meditation and contemplation. When one understands the above points, it becomes apparent what to contemplate on.
Regarding the #1 above, I would also suggest looking into whether any of the 10 types of miccha ditthi are left.
Micchā Ditthi, Gandhabba, and Sōtapanna StageI just updated that post, “What is a Thought?” .
What Dr.J Chakma said above is correct. I just made it a bit more clear (hopefully!).
Thanks for pointing it out, Tobias. This is a bit complex issue. Please let me know if it can be made more clear.
Also, try to quote the post in question, if possible:
How to Reply to a Forum QuestionDr. J Chakma wrote: “Out of 4 antakkappas a living being spend 3 anatakkappas (i.e. 75% time of a mahakappa) in Brahma realm (Abhassara) and enjoy jhanic pleasure. However, Buddha told this sansara is full of suffering (dukha and dukkha). So, a being even if it spent rest of the mahakappa in apayas, the being still spends 75% of time in Good realm (abhassara realm). So, theoretically a being enjoys more than it suffers.”
That is correct.
But as you said after that, the suffering, while it lasts, is unbearable.To get a perspective consider the following scenario: If one is given the opportunity to enjoy all the comforts in the world for 9 months on the condition that one would then be subjected to various forms of torture (burned alive, cut into pieces only to reassembled instantaneously and to go through the whole process again, etc) incessantly for the next 3 months, would that be acceptable?
I don’t think one would even agree to one day of such suffering even for 9 months of luxurious living.
P.S. I just wanted to mention a book that I read recently, which gives a good idea of what it is like in the hell (similar to the descriptions of some suttas): “A Guided Tour of Hell – A Graphic Memoir” by Samuel Bercholz (2016). He first describes an “out-of-body experience” that is similar to many given by others (seeing his body from above), but the second experience is a “trip to the hell”.
upekkha100 wrote: “Competitiveness(wanting to defeat others, win against others, one-upping others) comes from envy(issa) or asmi mana?”
No. asmi mana is very different from macchariya that I explained above.
– It is the last bit of sense of a “me”.
– For example, an Anagami would have asmi mana but even a Sotapanna would not have macchariya (stinginess).
– In the case of an Anagami, for example, if someone verbally abuses or hits an Anagami, that Anagami would not generate anger. It would only be a displeasure directed at the abuser. But the mindset would be disturbed, and he/she would think, for example, “why is this person so ignorant and is abusing me?”. It is just a trace of a “self”.In any case, I think this discussion has gone far enough. There is no point in debating the difference between envy and jealousy; that would be suitable for a philosophical forum. Google those words and see. They are both at a much higher level than “asmi mana”.
Tien is correct in saying that since she is responding she is generating thoughts (and that would require at least one of the six sense inputs must be coming in), some parts of her brain must be working.
However, even if the woman is totally unconscious, as long as the body temperature does not drop (and the body does not start to decay), she is alive. As long as she is alive, she is able to conceive.
A gandhabba only needs a “zygote” (right chemical composition) to take possession of. That is why it can happen even outside the womb (artificial insemination).
If the woman is truly dead, then the eggs in her womb will also start decaying along with her physical body. In that case, they would not be able to combine with a sperm and make a zygote.
It is a very good question, firewrns.
The key here is to understand what is really meant by “having faith” in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.
This is NOT a pledge that is done without understanding. I know a lot of people who have “blind faith” in the Buddha, but are not even aware of the basic teachings of the Buddha. They may even believe in their hearts that they have “faith” in the Buddha. But the key is unless they truly understand the Dhamma, they cannot have true faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, or Sangha.
One example from the Tipitaka is queen Mallika, who gave the most expensive alms giving to the Buddha and a very large number of bhikkhus. She was born in an apaya (as a worm). Thus she was not even a Sotapanna Anugami.
To be at least a Sotapanna Anugami one has to “see” the Dhamma: Basically, how one can be born in an apaya if one still has “apayagami gatI”. One has to know how “apayagami gati” are related to that type of sankhara and vinnana (due to avijja), i.e., one needs to understand Paticca Samuppada (and also remove the deeper layer of avijja by beginning to comprehend Tilakkhana). See, “Viññāna – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations” (and “Viññāna Aggregate” for a deeper analysis of vinnana).
Therefore, both UNDERSTANDING Dhamma, and LIVING (generating/stopping sankhara accordingly) is the key. This was explained in the two posts published recently (which I wrote to dispel this myth about blind faith at the Dhamma Wheel forum):
Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run
Ānapānasati Eliminates Mental Stress PermanentlyIn fact, I started the new subsection, “Essential Buddhism” because I was appalled by the level of ignorance displayed by several people commenting at that forum. They were harassing me because they thought I was teaching wrong Dhamma! But I think at least some are beginning to realize their lack of understanding. It is not their fault. Most publications in English have incorrect or incomplete translations of deep suttas.
As mentioned in that second post:
Understanding Buddha Dhamma is all about understanding the steps in Paticca Samuppāda:“Yō paticcasamuppādam passati,
so Dhammam passati.
Yō Dhammam passati,
so paticcasamuppādam passati”One who sees paticcasamuppāda
sees the Dhamma.
One who sees the Dhamma
sees paticcasamuppāda.”(Mahāhatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28); at the end).
Also, one needs to understand what is meant by “Buddha”: “bhava uddha” or “stopping future bhava” (and jati or births).
– A Buddha is someone who discovered the way to “stop future bhava” and thus to “stop future suffering”.
– In the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, the Buddha clearly declared the ultimate goal: “akuppā me vimutti, ayam antimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo” or “I have attained the ultimate release (from all suffering); this is the last birth, no more births for me”.Finally, in the Vakkali Sutta (SN 22.87), the Buddha told Ven. Vakkali: “Yo kho, vakkali, dhammaṃ passati so maṃ passati; yo maṃ passati so dhammaṃ passati” OR “One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma”.
Therefore, to have true faith, one needs to “see” Dhamma; to see Dhamma, one needs to see Paticca Samuppada; to truly understand Paticca Samuppada, one needs to start comprehending Tilakkhana; for that one needs to get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi first.
– Therefore it is a step-by-step process.This “process” is not completed in a single lifetime. Those who get to Arahanthood by just hearing a single verse had fulfilled most of the steps in previous lives.
– We all have fulfilled these to varying levels.
– Some of the progress may even be temporarily hidden (if Sotapanna stage had not been reached in previous lives), and it may be easy to “get it back” if one is exposed to true Dhamma.
– We just need to do our best to advance from wherever we are at this time.No problem, Christian.
It is fine to point out if a clearly wrong statement is made. Let us just make sure to quote the statement and point out why it is wrong.
Christian wrote: “In Kotthita Sutta, Venerable Sariputta explains that the problem is not an eye or music but the craving (on the basis of ignorance)”
Yes. that is correct, and I fully agreed when you wrote that earlier too.
I was just questioning your earlier statement: “Totally not agree. Buddha Dhamma is not about poking out eyes nor destroying objects of affection for that eye.”.
No one made such a claim.We need to be careful about not taking another person’s comments out of context.
It is better to QUOTE what another person has written, if a rebuttal is needed. That way, there is no misunderstanding as to what is being refuted.
As I understand, the meanings may be expressed the following ways:
Issa = Envy: X has a bigger house and I have a small one. I am envious of X.
Macchariya (I am not sure whether there is an English word for this; the closest may be “stingy”): I have a lot of wealth, and I do not want others to come asking for donations or trying to rob me. Therefore, I try to pretend that I do not have much wealth.
Again, as I understand, a Sotapanna would not have either.
