Dhamma's are suddenly insubstantial


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    • #22261


      For two years I’ve been following Dhammas. Following may not be the right word, there’s been practice and Dhammas occur as a byproduct of the practice. This has mostly included insights and altered states of consciousness. They’ve been the mainstay throughout the journey.

      On Sunday there was a very interesting mind movement where all theses Dhammas very suddenly appeared pointless. They lost there substance. I overlayed the fact that they come and go like water passing through me. Even knowing this in itself was insignificant – all I could really do was laugh at this twist.

      Is this something or nothing that is recognised in Buddhism?

    • #22262

      Mind can play tricks.

      When one really starts comprehending Dhamma (suffering and its root causes), one can start feeling it mentally and bodily. This is described in the described in the Upanisa Sutta (SN 12.23):

      “..With the comprehension of suffering (i.e., the First Noble Truth via Tilakkhana) faith results; with the growth of faith, lightness of mind (pāmojjaṃ) arises; with increasing lightness of mind, joy (piti) arises; with increasing joy, lightness of the body (passaddhi) arises; with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises; with increasing bodily sukha, samādhi arises; with samādhi, yathābhūtañāṇadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they really are) arises; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, one loses attachment to worldly things (nibbidā), followed by losing cravings for sense pleasures (viragā), and liberation (vimutti), and to the destruction of all defilements (khayeñāṇaṃ)”.

      That step-by-step process takes one all the way to Arahanthood.

    • #22263

      Thanks for this response. Mind can indeed play tricks. Having searched some suttas for some direction I managed to shed some light on this. It seems that dhammas themselves are empty. This doesn’t mean they haven’t helped, just that they’re characterized by the three marks of existences which is what I originally observed. I’m going to keep with my initial intuition on this that they are indeed insubstantial.

      • #22264

        Dhamma is not empty, you are just confused about things and this is why Dhamma seems empty as you creating this experience as a blind person touching different things and experiencing them as something else then it is in reality.

    • #22265

      Thank you Christian

      Should a seeker not find a companion who is better than or similar to himself, let him resolutely pursue a solitary course; there is no fellowship with the unwise.

      I couldn’t find a more gentler way to put it.

      Much compassion

      • #22266

        The thing is that if you read a lot of nonsense under “buddhism” category (books, articles etc.) which are not even close to real Dhamma you will develop wrong views that you will think that you experience something (which is not even living experience, this is just what you think and believe/imagine). So what you think is not what you experience but you take what you read for granted “if it that so then I will just think that way and repeat like a parrot” – this is how 99% so-called “buddhist” I encountered. Dhamma is not empty, even if you are Arahant is not empty but there is no more use of Dhamma as a healthy person does not need any more medicine to take – do medicine become empty? No, we just do not need it anymore.

        99% so-called “experiences” are just what people read and think and they think that is what is called experience. Totally wrong. We experience only a couple things, mundane stuff, jhanic states (if someone can enter them) and Nibbana – that’s it. There is no more to experience besides it.

        Keep yourself checked all the time if you want to make real progress. I can not stress how an understanding of Dhamma is crucial otherwise there is no real progress outside of that understanding but just confusion which we being absorbed into as it fits our confused gathi.

        Stop making up stuff in your mind and just focus on what you really experience. (tanha/avijja)

    • #22272

      NuanceOfSuchness, thank you very much for sharing your experiences during your practice with us, even as it was used to add more details in your questions.

      I have enjoyed having a new participant in this forum, sharing jhanic and meditative experiences with us, which frankly to me would be out of my league at least for the foreseeable future.

      Would you be so kind and helpful as to act as a kind of teacher to me, while I sincerely hope that my questions may help you even if only for a bit?

      First of all, I think Lal has mentioned somewhere that lobha, dosa and moha are gradually reduced and eventually eliminated as one gains insight into anicca, dukkha and anatta.

      You mentioned that you perceived the insignificance and insubstantiality of dhammas. This seems to be what anatta is about.

      If I may ask, after that experience, do you feel less attached to sense pleasures and/or less repulsed by phenomena that normally seems unattractive or unpleasant?

      What about internal dhammas? Do you find yourself being less attached to notions of an unchanging, substantial self? If you go deeper, do you realize experientially that rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana are insubstantial, ever changing processes that can undergo unexpected change and dissolution, which offer no real refuge from dukkha?

      What if you stayed with these observations and realizations a while longer and more frequently in your practice? Would it deepen the quality of your practice as well as your daily life?

      I eagerly wait to learn from you about your progress, for such things interest me greatly and I would be glad to be of whatever little help I can provide, assuming that I am helpful at all.

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