January 18, 2019 at 11:46 am #21416
According to the chart in this post:
Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna
A Sotapanna would have completely removed the following asobhana cetasika:
Ditthi, vicikiccā, thina, middha, issa, maccariya, kukkucca.
Issa is jealousy. Out of all those 7 cetasika, issa(jealousy) is one of the most apparent energies we can more easily detect within ourselves when it has arisen in our minds.
So sensing the absence or arising of jealousy within us is one good indication of whether one is a Sotapanna or not. If one senses any jealousy within themselves, that should be a sure way to know one is not yet a Sotapanna. This is of course AFTER one has already listened to a desana by another likely Ariya(necessary ingredient/requirement to become a Sotapanna).
Though I feel I should point out and emphasize: the only way to be sure if one is really a Sotapanna or any Ariya is a confirmation by the Buddha.
Without the Buddha, the status of one’s attainment of the stages of Enlightenment(magga phala) can only be a guess. Ariyas themselves might not even know for sure, as were a few cases in the Tipitaka.
Thus without the Buddha, the best we are left with are PROBABLE clues/hints/symptoms/qualities of a Sotapanna/Sakadagami/Anagami.
So even if someone does not sense even a shred of jealousy within them it does not mean one is a Sotapanna, it is still not a guarantee nor a verification. This could mean one has simply suppressed their issa(jealousy) cetasika sucessfully to very low/almost seemingly non-existent levels. Like even an anariya yogi or someone who has attained anariya jhana or an anariya brahma.
In Brahmajāla Sutta, the Buddha lists 62 wrong views(miccha ditthi). It would seem views 59-62 is mistaking one’s attainment of the first/second/third/fourth jhana to be stages of Nibbana(example: if I attained one of the jhanas, I would feel more at peace, radiate metta, have more panna, experience more niramisa sukha and act with more upekkha, and thus wrongly assume I am an Anagami or Arahant, when really I’m still an anariya who just happened to have attained one of the anariya jhanic states). I could easily see how those who have attained jhanic states to have Ariya-like qualities and behaviors, and thus why they would wrongly think they are Ariyas. There are even some people/yogis today, who clearly talk about a jhanic experience, go about implying that they are enlightened when that is most likely not the case. Jhana does not mean Enlightenment/Nibbana.
January 18, 2019 at 5:18 pm #21425
“So sensing the absence or arising of jealousy within us is one good indication of whether one is a Sotapanna or not.”
It is true that a Sotapanna would have removed jealousy: When one realizes the anicca nature, there is nothing to be jealous about. Jealousy comes from another person owning “valuable stuff”.
– But it may not be straightforward to make a determination based on just that. Furthermore, jealousy may not arise in one situation, but may arise in another.
“Though I feel I should point out and emphasize: the only way to be sure if one is really a Sotapanna or any Ariya is a confirmation by the Buddha.”
That is not correct. One could determine for ONESELF (But only a Buddha can determine the status of another person). The buddha has stated that it is fine, and also fine to declare it too (see Maha Parinibbna Sutta, for example). But of course, one may make such declaration with or without merit. We just don’t know.
– In any case, there is no point in even trying to guess the status of another.
– Even for oneself, if it is not clear whether one has attained any magga phala, it would not matter much. One’s efforts will NOT go to waste. Even if one has a dvi-hetuka birth, it will help one get a tihetuka birth.
– Until Arahanthood, one should not “slow down”. One time a bhikkhu stopped striving and when asked by the Buddha said that he had attained the Anagami stage and thus he would not mind being born in brahma worlds. The Buddha asked him if he had feces in his hand and wiped it off, would it not still smell. The bhikkhu understood and was able to attain the Arahanthood.
January 19, 2019 at 2:17 am #21432
“Jealousy comes from another person owning “valuable stuff”.”
This is evny not jealousy. In common parlance the two terms have become interchangeable. Most often people are in fact experiencing the feeling of envy when they say ‘I am jealous'(of him, of her). Technically the two terms are given as (Cambridge):
Envy: To feel displeasure and ill-will at the superiority of another in happiness, success, and the possession of anything desirable”
Jealousy: An apprehension of losing something or someone to another, of losing a loved one to a rival. Typically a third person, a rival, enters the scene and attempts to take away a lover.
Now I do not know what the Pali word ISSA stands for exactly. My feeling is that it is envy that is meant, since that is the ‘mental groundwork’, to coin a phrase ,leading to potential theft or appropriation to oneself of something or someone belonging to another; while jealousy is ‘only’ LACK of generosity taken to the extreme, a total unwillingness to share, and a corresponding resolve to protect at all costs what one does have,EVEN BY FORCE.
The one has to do with extreme greed, the other with extreme selfishness/miserliness. There is more evil implied in the first. One is wanting MORE, the other is wanting to HOLD ONTO desperately.
I thought it relevant to make the distinction clear.
January 19, 2019 at 3:24 am #21435Johnny_LimParticipant
“Envy: To feel displeasure and ill-will at the superiority of another in happiness, success, and the possession of anything desirable”
Jealousy: An apprehension of losing something or someone to another, of losing a loved one to a rival. Typically a third person, a rival, enters the scene and attempts to take away a lover.”
A person would envy another because the standard is unlikely to be achieved by him. For example, the next door Joe is envious of Jack Ma, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet…etc. He would not be jealous of these super high net worth people because he is no where near to their monetary status.
A person would be jealous of another because he is very close to achieving the rival’s standard or at the very least perceived to be attainable by him. For example, Joe is jealous of John’s recent promotion to managerial position. Joe has been working very hard for that position and was very disappointed that he was not given the promotion. It is unlikely that Joe is envious of John in this regard.
January 19, 2019 at 3:28 pm #21447
“One could determine for ONESELF (But only a Buddha can determine the status of another person).”
There are at least 2 cases in the Tipitaka where two Ariyas did not know or doubted their Ariya status. They were mentioned on this forum. If someone knows the exact references, please feel free to share.
In one case in the Tipitaka, if I remember correctly, a man kept thinking he did not attain magga phala because he still had angry thoughts, even after getting confirmation by the Buddha. But he was indeed a Sotapanna. (Those angry thoughts were from his patiga, a cetasika that a Sotapanna still has, it is the weaker version of dosa/hatred.)
There was another instance in the Tipitaka where an Arahant did not even know that he/she was an Arahant.
And according to this site, there are jati Sotapannas(those who became Sotapanna in one of their past lives) who when reborn as humans do not know that they are Sotapannas.
This begs the following questions:
1) So if even an Arahant did not know, how can anyone with lesser stages of Nibbana determine this for themselves?
2) Why is it that some Ariyas know with certainty, while others have no idea, and others doubt? What causes one to be certain and causes others to doubt/not know/forget?
“The buddha has stated that it is fine, and also fine to declare it too (see Maha Parinibbna Sutta, for example). But of course, one may make such declaration with or without merit.”
I will have to find the relevant part in the sutta to verify.
I would think it is fine too, but only AFTER one received confirmation by the Buddha. Otherwise how can one be sure? We are not omniscient like him.
It seems a lot of people these days think they are enlightened. Whether it is in the Hindu, New age, or even Buddhist community.
3) What if they simply have wrong views/miccha ditthi and mistaking the new changes in their behavior/personality/character/gati for stages of Nibbana? Mistaking their newly attained peaceful mind state and their jhanic symptoms for stages of Nibbana like those wrong views in the Brahmajāla Sutta? A yogi or anyone attaining the 8th jhana could easily mistake that for Nibbana.
My point is, without the Buddha’s confirmation, I think it better to just keep following the Path and not assume one has attained magga phala. This could risk complacency. And this could risk the increase of asmi mana(pride/ego/arrogance). I have seen this to be just the case with a certain famous yogi who implies he is fully enlightened, yet I can sense/feel the energy of his pride even from watching his videos.
January 19, 2019 at 6:49 pm #21451ChristianParticipant
Upekkha your attitude is like trying to prove Buddha or Buddha Dhamma wrong at all the cost. Opposing everything rather than trying to figure it out how things are. I will give a couple tips so it will be easier to figure it out.
First, most people act like a blind person who trying to negate their own blindless on the arguments of nonexistence something that they can’t see. The problem is not “how I can see it” but “I do not see it so it must be something wrong going on” ignoring ones one blindness in those matters. Thinking that we are able to know things related to Buddha out of nowhere or with the basis on some information around without proper practice and experience of Nibbana is nonsense – I can’t believe that people just can’t get it as simple as that.
“So if even an Arahant did not know, how can anyone with lesser stages of Nibbana determine this for themselves?”
The question is: Do really Arahant didn’t know he attained Arahantship or didn’t have enough knowledge to express it the right way to bring satisfactory attention of others? We need to know exactly or as close to an exact contest of situation – otherwise we will harm ourselves by creating negative reactions towards what we do not know/understand of how things are at that moment when Arahant was expressing his experience of Nibbana.
Making up conclusions on the basis of “liking and disliking” or on the basis of “what I think” will kill any genuine investigation of Dhamma closing way doors to Nibbana.
“Why is it that some Ariyas know with certainty, while others have no idea, and others doubt? What causes one to be certain and causes others to doubt/not know/forget?”
My idea for that is like with someone who got roofies into their drink but as medicine. For example, you have cancer, you do not know it. Somebody drops you a pill and you get rid of cancer without even knowing. I think certain individuals have the potential for Nibbana that in right push or input their mind achieved Nibbana without them realizing really the depth of such experience or “state” they are in, but I doubt my own theory simply because of my own experience. I would rather say like above that person has limited expression of Nibbana till death. We do not really know but what we know is the most important which is there is Nibbana that we can attain. Projecting ICCA view is inevitable on those topics for most people who did not yet attain Nibbana of Sotapanna but at least please be aware of such “projection”. We can not satisfy our mind nor any of six senses with whatever input besides cutting off from this craving to do so.
January 20, 2019 at 6:42 pm #21463
Y not brings up a good point. There is a distinction between jealousy and envy.
So which is issa? Both jealousy and envy?
Anyone know of any specific descriptions of issa in the Tipitaka?
January 22, 2019 at 10:29 am #21502AnonymousInactive
I think yes, hes won’t have a shred of jealousy. Because, why should he? All material-based dreams are no longer in his concern.
January 22, 2019 at 11:05 am #21504ChristianParticipant
That’s not true. As Sotapanna you can still have cravings especially those deep-rooted ones.
January 22, 2019 at 11:50 am #21506
Christian wrote: ” As Sotapanna you can still have cravings especially those deep-rooted ones.”
It is true that a Sotapanna would have kama raga (i.e., he/she would still enjoy sense pleasures).
But he/she would not have jealousy for anyone else having better access to sense pleasures.
– Cravings do not necessarily lead to jealousy.
– It is a step-by-step process. At the next step, Sakadagami would still like sense pleasures, but would not have any desire to OWN objects that provide sense pleasures.
January 22, 2019 at 2:32 pm #21509
From Vatthasutta (The Simile of the Cloth) MN. 7
And what are the corruptions of the mind? Katame ca, bhikkhave, cittassa upakkilesā?
…..envy, stinginess, ….. issā cittassa upakkileso, macchariyaṃ cittassa upakkileso
So two words are given to make the distinction, though the translation ‘stinginess’ does not convey the much greater evil inherent in ‘jealousy’
SC 4.12 – 4 15:
‘issā cittassa upakkileso’ti—iti viditvā issaṃ cittassa upakkilesaṃ pajahati;
macchariyaṃ cittassa upakkileso’ti—iti viditvā macchariyaṃ cittassa
ISSA would here then stand for envy and MACCARIYA for jealousy.
wisdomlib.org has :
Factor 9 – Issa (envy): When one hears about or meets an individual superior to one in beauty, wealth, education or morality one often feels envious. This unwholesome thought is issa (envy).
3…(7) envy…(8) jealousy; scrolling down to the Notes:
7. issa, envy
8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness;
Even given all that, one must still make allowance for the fact that nowadays people say ‘I am jealous (of him)’ when they are in fact envious of him . Afterthought:…. no one ever says ‘I am envious (of my wife/gf)’ when they are jealous of her.
Metta to all
January 22, 2019 at 3:59 pm #21510
As I understand, the meanings may be expressed the following ways:
Issa = Envy: X has a bigger house and I have a small one. I am envious of X.
Macchariya (I am not sure whether there is an English word for this; the closest may be “stingy”): I have a lot of wealth, and I do not want others to come asking for donations or trying to rob me. Therefore, I try to pretend that I do not have much wealth.
Again, as I understand, a Sotapanna would not have either.
January 22, 2019 at 4:28 pm #21511
“Again, as I understand, a Sotapanna would not have either.”
That is how it seems to me as well.
Now as to ENVY, we are agreed. Not so as to JEALOUSY, which means: being over-protective with the FEAR of losing to another whatever it is that you are so happy and proud to possess because it is the source of your happiness or wealth. The best example is that of being jealous of your wife or girlfriend lest some one else wins her love and you end up losing her.
But the way Lal has it: ‘Therefore, I try to pretend that I do not have much wealth’ does not seem to me to figure in the concept of ‘jealousy’ at all. So I would say we better stick to MACCARIYA here,and forget all about’jealousy'(!)
January 23, 2019 at 8:56 pm #21546
Y not, thank you for compiling the info on issa.
Your posts got me thinking that I may have been incorrectly using these two words: envy/jealousy all this time. I have interchangeably used them most of my life, thinking they’re synonyms, not knowing there is a difference.
So it seems a bit clearer that Sotapanna would not have envy.
1) Sotapanna has no envy, but what about jealousy? Would a Sotapanna have that?
2) Competitiveness(wanting to defeat others, win against others, one-upping others) comes from envy(issa) or asmi mana? If from envy, then a Sotapanna would have eliminated the tendency of competitiveness as well right? But if competitiveness stems from asmi mana, then that would mean competitiveness would be eliminated only at the Arahant stage.
January 24, 2019 at 3:07 am #21551
First of all, my definition of ISSA, except where I gave the source quoting Cambridge and others, has been my own, so I may be off somewhere there, or incomplete, depending on how it seems to others.
Now as to your questions:
1) It seems clear to me that a Sotapanna would have neither of the two.
2) I have no answer to this. I know I have never been envious, and always shied away strongly from open competiveness, satisfied to restrict myself to strive for my own goals treading on the paths of others as least as possible; yet I am far from being an Arahant.
January 24, 2019 at 5:53 am #21554
upekkha100 wrote: “Competitiveness(wanting to defeat others, win against others, one-upping others) comes from envy(issa) or asmi mana?”
No. asmi mana is very different from macchariya that I explained above.
– It is the last bit of sense of a “me”.
– For example, an Anagami would have asmi mana but even a Sotapanna would not have macchariya (stinginess).
– In the case of an Anagami, for example, if someone verbally abuses or hits an Anagami, that Anagami would not generate anger. It would only be a displeasure directed at the abuser. But the mindset would be disturbed, and he/she would think, for example, “why is this person so ignorant and is abusing me?”. It is just a trace of a “self”.
In any case, I think this discussion has gone far enough. There is no point in debating the difference between envy and jealousy; that would be suitable for a philosophical forum. Google those words and see. They are both at a much higher level than “asmi mana”.
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