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Thanks, y not. I did not see the link: “Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink)” (SN 55.24)
I just read it and it is a good sutta that clarifies the Sotapanna Anugami stage. I have made some revisions to that English translation to make it clear:
Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink)
[At Kapilavasthu] Now at that time Sarakaani the Sakyan, who had died, was proclaimed by the Blessed One to be a Sotapanna, not subject to rebirth in the apayas, assured of Nibbana. At this, a number of the Sakyans, whenever they met each other or came together in company, were indignant and angry, and said scornfully: “A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Sotapanna, if the Buddha has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be a Sotapanna… assured of Nibbana! Yet, Sarakaani failed to live a moral life and took to drink!”
[Mahaanaama the Sakyan reported this to the Buddha who said:] “Mahaanaama, a lay-follower who has for a long time taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha — how could he go to apayas? Therefore, how can Sarakaani go to apayas?(1). “Mahaanaama, take the case of a person endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, and has attained the Arahanthood. By the destruction of the defilements he has by his own realization gained the release, the release through wisdom, in this very life, and abides in it. The man is entirely released from the hell-state, from rebirth as an animal, he is free from the realm of hungry ghosts, fully freed from the downfall, the evil way, from the apayas.
(2). “Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He has wisdom but has not yet gained full release, but has destroyed the five lower samyojana (an Anagami). Upon death, he will be reborn spontaneously in a brahma realm where he will attain Nibbaana without returning from that world. That man is also entirely released from the apayas.
(3). “Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He has wisdom but he has not yet gained release. Yet by destroying the first three samyojana and weakening kama raga, patigha and avijja, he is a Once-returner (Sakadagami), who will return once more to this kama loka. That man is entirely freed from the apayas.
(4). “Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he has wisdom not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters he is a Stream-Winner (Sotapanna), not subject to rebirth in apayas, assured of Nibbana. That man is entirely freed the apayas.
(5). “Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He has not yet gained wisdom and has not gained release. But perhaps he has these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom (saddha indriya, viriya indriya, sati indriya, samadhi indriya, panna indriya). And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are moderately understood by him with insight. That man does not go to the realm of hungry ghosts, to the downfall, to the evil way, to states of woe.
(6). “Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom (saddha indriya, viriya indriya, sati indriya, samadhi indriya, panna indriya). And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are even slightly understood by him with insight. He too will not go to the apayas.
I just wanted to point out the main ideas:
Descriptions in (5) and (6) above refer to Sotapanna Anugami. He/she has not yet comprehended Tilakkhana to the stage of a Sotapanna, but is beginning to start comprehending them.
– So, it is not just blind faith in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha. He/she has grasped at least a trace of the anicca nature.
P.S. It is important to see that there is a difference between those with magga phala (1-4) and the last two types of Sotapanna Anugamai. It seems that the last two are not really FREED from the apayas. It seems to mean that they merely will not go to apayas at the end of this bhava.
– For each of the 4 magga pahala:
“Ayampi kho, mahānāma, puggalo parimutto nirayā parimutto tiracchānayoniyā parimutto pettivisayā parimutto apāyaduggativinipātā.”
“..That man is entirely free… from the apayas.”
– For the last two types (Sotapanna Anugamai):
“Ayampi kho, mahānāma, puggalo agantā nirayaṃ agantā tiracchānayoniṃ agantā pettivisayaṃ agantā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ.”
“..That man does not go to the apayas”.
I made this update later, in response to a comment by upekkha100. See my comment on Feb 5 below.
Apparently, Sarakani did not live an immoral life (especially after attaining the Sotapanna stage). He attained the Sotapanna stage close to his death, and could not get rid of the “drinking habit” until his death.
– This is why it is dangerous to judge someone else’s status. Only that person or a Buddha can know. In some cases, even that person may not be aware of it. There is another sutta about Mahanama himself, where he had doubts about whether he himself was a Sotapanna; the Buddha confirmed that he was.P.S. The process of eliminating the ten samyojana at each stage of magga phala discussed at: “Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process“, and at “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna“.
February 11, 2019: The post,”Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“, was written to clarify these issues.
There are 6 dhatu in all: patavi, apo, tejo, vayo, akasa, vinnana.
patavi, apo, tejo, vayo are in akasa. Therefore, akasa can be thought of as “where patavi, apo, tejo, vayo exist”.
Both akasa and vinnana are infinite. One can experience that (I have not) when one gets into the first two arupavacara jahna of Ākāsānancāyatana and Viññāṇañcāyatana.
Ākāsānancāyatana comes from Ākāsā + ananta + ayatana, which means it is “infinite spatial plane”. Plane does not mean a two-dimensional surface. I cannot think about a suitable English word; it just means “it is out there”.
Same for Viññāṇañcāyatana: “infinite Viññāṇa plane”.
What is Viññāṇa dhatu are Viññāṇa (kammic energies below the suddhashtaka stage) and nama gotta (just records without energy).
Sanna, Vedana, Sankhara just arise in one’s mind; as soon as they arise, they are gone. After that records of them remain as nama gotta in the Viññāṇa plane.
– For example, one can recall what happened yesterday while eating lunch: one recognized the food, tatsed, and generated sankhara about it. Those things one can recall.
– But if one got really attached to that food, and wants to eat the same next week, that “expectation” remains as an energy as a Viññāṇa.firewns quoted: “Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to… states of woe.”
I need to know where this quote came from, before I can answer. Please always provide a link when you quote.
The only thing I can add to the above posts by faujidoc1, upekkha100, and myself is about the “beginning of universe” and “beginning of life”.
Neither has a beginning that can be traced back to.
That is inherent in the principle of causation (cause and effect), which is the backbone of Buddha Dhamma. Anything happens due to causes(s).
– I must add that modern science is also based on principle of causality.Therefore, by definition, there CANNOT be a beginning.
Whatever one takes to be the beginning (say a Creator) runs into the problem of “how did that (Creator) come into being?Planetary systems like our Solar system go through an endless recycle process: they come into being, and destroyed, only to be re-formed and repeat the process endlessly; see, “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)“
Tobias wrote: “..But we all have heard about people who saw the new distination already days before the death. ..Will the new bhava be confirmed only in the last moments of the old life?”
Yes. That ārammana (thought object) starts to come to the mind even days before cuti-patisandhi moment in the last citta vithi.
P.S. This happens to reinforce that ārammana in the mind.Suppose it is a human who is about to grasp a new lower bhava (in the apāyās). If the person has removed “apāyagāmi gathi”, that ārammana will not take hold. If it does not take hold, then the “next strong vipāka in line” will come to the mind. That will go on until an ārammana for a “good bhava” (compatible with the Sotapanna stage, for example) comes to the mind. Then it will not be rejected by the mind, and it will stay there until the last citta vithi, where it will be grasped.
What person X experiences is experienced by X’s gandhabba (mental body). Specifically, it is the hadaya vatthu of the gandhabba where thoughts are generated. That hadaya vatthu overlaps the heart (not in the heart).
In order to generate thoughts, the hadaya vatthu MUST first get a sense input from one of the six senses (five physical senses and the mana indriya that is located in the brain).
Therefore, if the brain in not active, the hadaya vatthu does not get any sense input, and thus cannot generate any thoughts.
When one is unconscious, one’s brain does not function. That is why one does not generate any thoughts while unconscious.
During deep sleep also parts of the brain are inactive. That is why we don’t generate thoughts during sleep, especially while in deep sleep called the REM state.
I have given an analogy to explain this in #8 and #9 of the following post:
“Our Mental Body – Gandhabba”I see that the linking tool is not working. Here is the web address for that post:
Did you not read the post itself?
Misconceptions on the Topics the Buddha “Refused to Answer”In that post I pointed out that the Buddha indeed answered those “unanswered questions”.
Yes. I said, ” IF YOU CAN PROVIDE A LINK to the Pāli sutta..”
You did not provide a link to the Pali sutta with the relevant Pali word in question: “tathāgata”.
As I said, I appreciate you trying to help. But we need to make sure the information is RELEVANT.
– Otherwise the discussion board will have too much clutter.
– We don’t want people to spend time reading material that is not relevant to the subject.I am closing this topic. I think the meaning of the word “tathāgata” is clear.
y not said: ” I did not read the Pali version myself.”
If the word “tathāgata” is not there in the sutta, there was no need to provide a link. That was the word being discussed.
I still do not see the word “tathāgata” there.
That last verse by Ven. Ananda says: “Tumhe loke sukatā.”, which is translated as, “well gone in the world”
– That is not too bad, but it would have been better to translate that as, “became free of suffering in the world” or something like that.Anyway, those are good suttas to read. They describe what are dhamma (moral) and what are adhamma (immoral).
Thanks, y not. But I see a list of suttas, not a sutta.
In any case, the sutta reference that I gave gives the meaning of the word “tathāgata”. No need to analyze it again. People have funny ways of interpreting Pali words: “Thus Gone One”?
Hello Aniduan,
Yes. Aggañña Sutta does not discuss “Cakkavāla” and “antakkappa” (“world systems” and “the four phases of a kappa”).
As I mentioned in that post, some information come from other suttas. There is no single sutta that covers all that material.
Aggañña Sutta mainly discusses the “reverse evolution process” starting with humans with fine bodies who “descended” from brahma realms.
– Basically, by the time their lifetime in those higher realms are exhausted, they gradually come down to lower realms, as their “hidden gati” (“anusaya”) come back.
– With time, humans also “descend” to lower realms (such as animal realm), when the Earth also changes and vegetation suitable for animal life appear gradually. It takes multi-millions of years.
– It is interesting to note that scientists have now traced back the appearance of bacteria to about 4 billion years ago (the age of Earth is estimated to be about 4.5 billion years).P.S. After bacteria came vegetation and small animals to be followed by more complex animals. So, that phase of the evolution of animals is similar to what is proposed by Darwin.
– The main difference is that humans first appeared with fine bodies (without sex organs); their bodies got more “dense” with time; sex organs appeared next, etc.
– Of course, the initial births of humans were “opapatika” (without coming out of a womb).
– The complex part is that “reverse progression” of humans.I cannot find that sutta. If you can provide a link to the Pāli sutta, I can take a look at it. The way to provide a link is explained here:
How to Reply to a Forum Question
– Please provide a link to the Pali sutta always.In any case, I have seen translations of the word tathāgata as “Thus Gone One”.
But the meaning of the word tathāgata is explained in the “Loka Sutta (Iti 112)“.I have made a few “improvements” to the English translation there:
“Bhikkhus, the world has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the Tathāgata is released from the world. The origin of the world (with suffering) has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the causes for the origin of the world have been understood and by the Tathāgata. The cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the cessation of the world has been realized by the Tathāgata. The path leading to the cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the path leading to the cessation of the world has been followed by the Tathāgata.
“Bhikkhus, in the world with its devas, māras, and brahmās, with its recluses and brahmins, among humankind with its princes and people, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought, and reflected upon by the mind—that is fully understood by the Tathāgata: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
“Bhikkhus, from the night when the Tathāgata awakened to unsurpassed full enlightenment until the night when he passes away into the Nibbāna-element with no residue left, whatever he speaks and explains—all that is correct and not otherwise: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
“As the Tathāgata says, so he does; as the Tathāgata does, so he says: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
“In the world with its devas, māras, and brahmās, with its recluses and brahmins, among humankind with its princes and people, the Tathāgata is the conqueror, unvanquished, all-seer, wielding power: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.”
By knowledge of the whole world,
The whole world as it truly is,
He is released from all the world,
From all the world he is unattached.The all-conquering heroic sage,
Freed from every bond is he;
He has reached that perfect peace,
Nibbāna which is free from fear.Rid of taints, he is enlightened,
Trouble-free, with doubts destroyed,
Reached the final end of deeds,
Released by clinging’s full destruction.The Enlightened One, the Lord,
The best is he, unsurpassed;
For in the world together with its devas
He set the Dhamma-wheel in motion.Thus those devas and human beings,
Gone for refuge to the Buddha,
On meeting him pay homage to him,
Upon being released from suffering.Tamed, of the tamed he is the best;
Calmed, of the calmed he is the seer;
Freed, of the freed he is the foremost;
Crossed, of the crossed he is the chief.Thus do they pay him due homage,
The greatest freed from suffering:
In the world together with its devas
There is no equal.I don’t think that statement is correct.
It is true that those who CAN remember past lives are basically children under the age of 12 years or so.
– As a child grows, memories of the past life fade away.In many of those accounts, they died when they were not necessarily children, but at older ages too; “Evidence for Rebirth“.
P.S. However, it is true that it is rare that the person died at old age in the previous life (most cases are of dying young or at middle age). This is also something to do with the memory getting weak at old age. So, the gandhabba that comes out may not have a good memory.
Tobias wrote: “But 10 billion years for the destruction phase is much. Do I missunderstand something?”
I do not want to speculate on those things. But that time starts when the Sun (or another star in the 10,000 systems) starts getting hot. If you Google you can see that it is a gradual process. Of course, the last phase of the actual supernova is very short.
Here we are talking in terms of what is currently known to science. That picture keeps changing.
On the other point, you are right. It should be 1200 billion years or 1.2 trillion years. I just corrected it. Thanks!
