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The other key point is regarding the fear that many people have for “annihilation” by attaining Nibbana.
Conventionally, we say that an Arahant is not reborn after death. That sounds scary for many: “Why do I want to be annihilated?”.
– But the point is that there was no “enduring entity” to be annihilated!Think about it this way: Suppose your name is John in this life. You die and are reborn a deva. Then you live that life and reborn an animal, etc.
– When you are a deva , you are not John. When you are born an animal, you are not that John either.Furthermore, that John will be born many more times in the four lower realms than in human or higher realms. Thus that “lifestream” is subjected to much suffering than pleasures in the long run; see, “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“.
The best way to look at this is to say ANY AND ALL future suffering will be stopped at the death of an Arahant. Of course, MOST future suffering would be stopped after the Sotapanna stage.
Yes, y not. What you stated above is correct.
As one’s understanding of the Four Noble Truths and Tilakkhana grows, one’s punna kamma will automatically become kusala kamma. So, one should just keep doing punna/kusala kamma and not worry so much about which category they actually belong to.
Welcome to the forum, puthujjana!
I think you brought out a key point.
Siebe says: “The most obvious views for me are full identification…”i am rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana”.”
This is correct. The five aggregates (khandhas) is all “a person” is defined by.
However, the key is to understand that “that person” does not have control over them.
All those arise according to Paticca Samuppada (PS), starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara”.
– You can verify that all those five are in the PS cycle. One’s own body (part of the rupa aggregate) arises via the “bhava paccya jati” step.As long as one acts with avijja (i.e., without the comprehension of Four Noble Truths and Tilakkhana), one will keep generating those five aggregates and be subjected to suffering.
– The problem is that we are blinded by intermittent bouts of pleasure (especially when born in the good realms).
– When one is born in “bad realms” (like the animal realm), one can experience the harsh sufferings, but then one is not CAPABLE of tackling the problem.
– That is why we are trapped in this suffering-filled rebirth process.This is also why the Buddha said that there is no “self” who has CONTROL over the five aggregates (khandhas).
– When one acts with avijja, the five aggregates arise automatically, based on the PS cycle.The only way to get out of this is to cultivate panna (wisdom) by following the Noble Path.
– When one starts acting with wisdom, one will be following the “Kusala-mula PS process” that will lead to eventual liberation from any suffering.
– The first step is to stop births in the apayas where the suffering is worst, and that is accomplished by getting rid of sakkaya ditthi and becoming a Sotapanna.
– Put it in another way: five aggregates corresponding to animal or other lower realms would not arise via the PS process after one becomes a Sotapanna.This is a deep point that needs to be thought about carefully. I am still working on my promised post on Sakkaya Ditthi; I am thinking about how to express this as simply as possible.
It would be fruitful to focus on this point.
Siebe wrote: “By the way Nanamoli translated anatta as not-self, anicca as impermanence and dukkha as pain.”
Those are very bad translations: “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta“
Christian,
Please provide a link to the Pali version when you refer to a sutta.I looked up AN 7.66 and get a different sutta: Sattasūriya sutta (AN 7.66)
P.S.
Also, please don’t copy and paste whole suttas if they are long. Just paste the relevant part and explain why it is important (if needed).Good point.
However, all sankhara are anicca: “Sabbe sankhāra aniccā“.
Even though citta sankhara (same as mano sankhara) cannot lead to rebirth, they are still anicca. Even an Arahant would generate all three types of sankhara to live in this world until the death of the physical body. All sankhara are stopped only at Parinibbana.
– Such sankhara without kammic energy are called kiriya (just actions) too.Yes. You are correct in all. Thanks!
“Do those kaya sankhara trigger kaya vinnati rupa?” Yes.
I have revised the post in incorporate those: “Kamma are Done with Sankhāra – Types of Sankhāra“.
“Mano sankhara alone are not abhisankhara, right? Mano sankhara can lead to abhisankhara via “more thinking” in form of vaci and kaya sankhara. Thus the kamma is not strong or complete with only mano sankhara. Mano sankhara are the initial reaction (sanna, vedana) on a sense input (also to a kamma nimitta in case of cuti-patisandhi). “More thinking” means more cetasika are involved, like dosa, moha, lobha …”
Yes. Correct! Mano sankhara cannot lead to rebirths. But both vaci and kaya (abhi)sankhara can.
y not wrote: “However, my whole point was: can these 4 Sotapatti Anga be considered as kusala kamma leading to punna, in turn leading to Nibbana ‘via’ a deva realm? ”
Sotapatti Anga are four CONDITIONS to be fulfilled to attain the Sotapanna Stage. That is a change in one’s mindset: establishing unbreakable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and thus to attain an unbreakable sila.
– There is no need to “go through deva realms”.
– Some Sotapannas may be born in deva realms after death. Some may be born in Brahma realms if they had cultivated jhana. Some may just be reborn as humans.
– But of course, the devas who have attained Sotapanna stage and are born in deva realms would be delighted have more of such people born in deva realms.
– Anyway, I understand that you may be trying to say something else which may be true too (like doing a lot of punna kamma is likely to lead to rebirth in deva realms).If you looked at the Pali sutta, you would have seen that those are four Sotapatti Anga that needs to be fulfilled to attain the Sotapanna stage. So, yes, devas would be pleased. etc.
Devasabhāgata Stta (SN 55.36):
“Catūhi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgataṃ attamanā devā sabhāgataṃ kathenti. Katamehi catūhi? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgato hoti—itipi so bhagavā … pe … satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavāti. Yā tā devatā buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgatā ito cutā tatrūpapannā tāsaṃ evaṃ hoti: ‘yathārūpena kho mayaṃ buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgatā tato cutā idhūpapannā, ariyasāvakopi tathārūpena buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgato ehīti devānaṃ santike’ti.Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako dhamme … pe … saṅghe … pe … ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato hoti akhaṇḍehi … pe … samādhisaṃvattanikehi. Yā tā devatā ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgatā ito cutā tatrūpapannā tāsaṃ evaṃ hoti: ‘yathārūpehi kho mayaṃ ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgatā tato cutā idhūpapannā, ariyasāvakopi tathārūpehi ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato ehīti devānaṃ santike’ti. Imehi kho, bhikkhave, catūhi dhammehi samannāgataṃ attamanā devā sabhāgataṃ kathentī”ti.
That is the complete sutta.
Those Sotapatti Anga are discussed here: “Sotapatti Anga – The Four Qualities of a Sotapanna“.
This is why say that most English translations do not provide meaningful explanations. In the English translation that you provided, the second paragraph in particular is not good.
– For everyone: Please make an effort to learn how to provide links. It is not hard: “How to Reply to a Forum Question“y not: I am not sure what you mean by “four things the devas speak about having in common”.
If you provide the link to the English translation, I can take a look.
Siebe: You have probably not read the whole account of Angulimala before commenting: “Angulimāla – A Murderer’s Road to Sainthood“.
– I had provided this link in the post: “Account of Angulimāla – Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma”Local authorities were too scared to confront Angulimala, and the King himself came with an army to catch him. But the Buddha intervened before that.
The King thus met Angulimala, who was sitting by the Buddha, when he arrived with the army. Angulimala was already an Arahant by that time. There was no need for the King to arrest Ven. Angulimala.
The word “Idappaccayatā” comes from “ida” for “here” and the closest English word for “paccaya” is “condition”. Thus Idappaccayatā implies “based on this condition at this moment”. Therefore, Idappaccayatā Paticca Samuppāda describes how “pati icca” leads to “sama uppāda” moment by moment based on the conditions present at that moment; see, “Paticca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha”+”Sama+uppāda””.
I have revised the post to add this explanation and a couple of more revisions: “Idappaccayatā Paticca Samuppāda“.
Thanks, Tobias, for the suggestion.
P.S.
The additional “p” in “idappacayata” comes from the combination of “ida” and “paccaya”.
This is similar to “dammacakka” and “pavattana” combined to yield “dhammacakkappavattana” in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.Yes. I had not taken time to read the rest of #6.
Hopefully, this time I got it right:
“A Simple Way to Enhance Merits (Kusala) and Avoid Demerits (Akusala)“.Another relevant important thing to contemplate is the following:
Human body can endure pain in a limited range. It cannot endure the types of pain that can be endured in some lower realms. If subjected to such suffering, the human body will perish momentarily.
In the same way, a human body cannot experience the pleasures that can be experienced by a deva body.
Therefore, it is only a limited range of pain or pleasure that can be experienced in a given realm.
We all are likely to have done both good and bad kamma in the past. Those really bad kamma will bring vipaka only when we are born in the lower realms.
– Those really good kamma will bring highly-pleasurable vipaka only when we are born in a deva realm (Of course, when one dies there all that pleasure will turn to much suffering).However, if one cultivates panna and attains the Sotapanna stage, one will never be born in an apaya to experience those bad vipaka. Then those “bad kamma” done in the past will become “ahosi kamma”, i.e., they will never again bring vipaka.
– This is why Buddha Dhamma is called a “hetu-phala vāda”, not a “kamma-phala vāda”. Kamma plays an important role, but kamma vipaka can be overcome by removing the CONDITIONS to bring those vipaka to fruition. Those CONDITIONS are in Paticca Samuppada.
– It is essentially the “upādāna paccayā bhava” that can stop a future bhava (and thus jāti or births) from arising. That step will not go through certain types of bhava, depending on whether one has attained Sotapanna, Sakadagami, etc stages of Nibbana. Of course, no bhava will be grasped by an Arahant.Buddha never denied that one can have pleasurable experiences in human and higher realms. However, birth in any realm will end up in much suffering in the long run. Any and all suffering will be stopped only when the rebirth process is stopped (mainly because in the long run, one WILL BE born mostly in the apayas; see, “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm“).
– This is the key message of the Buddha. This may not be easy to understand, but this is what is explained in the First Noble Truth.Rishi’s observation is quite right.
Without a past kamma (a kamma beeja) no good or bad thing can happen.
But the key point is that certain conditions must be satisfied for those kamma beeja to bring vipaka.
In particular, for a rebirth to occur at the cuti-patisandhi moment, “upadana paccaya bhava” must be satisfied. When one attains the Arahanthood, both avijja and tanha are completely removed and thus there will be no upadana for any kind of bhava in the 31 realms.
– Therefore, while there may be many kamma beeja from the past that could give rise to a new bhava (and birth), none of those will be grasped (upadana) at the cuti-patisandhi moment of an Arahant.Even in regular kamma vipaka during a lifetime, one can live in such way as not to provide conditions for bad kamma beeja to bring fruits.
– For example, if one goes to a bad neighborhood at night, one may be setting up conditions for some bad kamma vipaka to materialize.
– Or, if one gets really drunk, one may be getting into arguments and even fights.
– I really cannot understand why people keep re-building houses in flood zones. They are likely to face the same situation again. It is again setting up conditions for another possible future disaster.One should really contemplate on this point.
