May 17, 2019 at 5:08 am #23145
In this post the word kusala is used for meritorious deeds. I think it must be changed to punna instead of kusala. Punna kamma can become kusala with understanding of the Tilakkhana, correct?
May 17, 2019 at 5:23 am #23146
Also the levels of akusala kamma are wrong (if my english understanding is good enough):
If done with wrong vision, with pleasure, and without prompting will have the highest strength.
If done with wrong vision, with pleasure, and with prompting will have the next highest strength.
If done with wrong vision, with neutral feeling, and without prompting will have the next highest strength.
If done with wrong vision, with neutral feeling, and with prompting will have the next highest strength….”
It should be “..next lower strength”, right?
May 17, 2019 at 6:13 am #23151
Yes. The second error seems to have done by “copying and pasting”.
For the first one, it is a bit more involved. Please see the corrected version. I just made both corrections.
May 17, 2019 at 6:27 am #23153
– I think in its category/essence, moral or immoral, it is kusala; punna is inherent in kusala and is the fruit or manifestation of it. So I would say that kusala becomes punna, rather than the other way round.
– Yes, your understanding of English is correct; for the sake of grammatical accuracy it should be ‘next lower strenght’, but I doubt whether anybody misunderstood what Lal meant. In such clear cases, not catching the error is what prevents the misunderstanding.
May 17, 2019 at 7:06 am #23154
y not wrote: “I think in its category/essence, moral or immoral, it is kusala; punna is inherent in kusala and is the fruit or manifestation of it. So I would say that kusala becomes punna, rather than the other way round.”
This is not correct.
– One who does punna kamma gains merits to be born in “good realms”. That is one who has not comprehended Tilakkhana.
– One who does kusala kamma is doing good deeds with the knowledge and understanding that he/she is not doing those to have “good births”, but to attain Nibbana (i.e., to stop the rebirth process).
– Basically one doing kusala kamma is an attha purisa puggala.
The word “kusala” comes from “ku” + “sala’, where “ku” (for “kunu”) are defilements, and “sala” means to get rid of. Thus “kusala” means to “get rid of defilements”.
– Even meritorious deeds, done with any hidden expectation of a “return” is not a kusala. But it is not an akusala (immoral deed) either.
– It is a punna kamma, that will bring joy to the heart and “good results in a mundane sense, i.e., good births or good kamma vipaka like being born with health and wealth.
May 20, 2019 at 1:47 am #23224
#6 is still having the issue:
If done WITHOUT wrong vision, with pleasure, and without prompting will have the next highest strength. (the point is that the pleasure will be reduced, and one will be hesitant due to the knowledge that it is a bad act, thus reducing the javana power).
If done WITHOUT wrong vision, with pleasure, and with prompting will have the next highest strength.
If done WITHOUT wrong vision, with neutral feeling, and without prompting will have the next highest strength.
If done WITHOUT wrong vision, with neutral feeling, and with prompting will have the least strength….”
May 20, 2019 at 4:30 am #23225
Yes. That is what I meant. One does kusala kammma to attain Nibbana not a deva existence, but punna is inherent in it, it follows nonetheless (unless one has attained Arahanthood)- in other words, that deva existence will come, if one has not gone any further until death, ON THE WAY to Nibbana.
Is this not the case with those Ariyas in the deva and brahma worlds?; ‘So-and-so, because of such-and-such a deed or view, has appeared in such-and-such a world and will attain Nibbana from there’
May 20, 2019 at 6:19 am #23228
Yes. I had not taken time to read the rest of #6.
Hopefully, this time I got it right:
“A Simple Way to Enhance Merits (Kusala) and Avoid Demerits (Akusala)“.
May 20, 2019 at 11:13 am #23237
A sutta in connection with my last post is SN 55.36, Devasabhāgatasutta. as well as the two suttas immediately preceding.
It may be that I am confusing kusala kamma with the ‘four things the devas speak about having in common’ ??
May 20, 2019 at 12:09 pm #23239
y not: I am not sure what you mean by “four things the devas speak about having in common”.
If you provide the link to the English translation, I can take a look.
May 20, 2019 at 12:48 pm #23240
I did provide the source, not the link. I have been unable to do provide links, despite your clear instructions. Please excuse me for it.
SN 55.36, Devasabhāgatasutta.:
Mendicants, when someone has four things the gods are pleased and speak of what they have in common. “ Firstly, a noble disciple has experiential confidence in the Buddha … . There are deities with experiential confidence in the Buddha who passed away from here and were reborn there. They think: ‘Having such experiential confidence in the Buddha, we passed away from there and were reborn here. That noble disciple has the same kind of experiential confidence in the Buddha, so they will come into the presence of the gods.’
Furthermore, a noble disciple has experiential confidence in the teaching …… And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion. There are deities with the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones who passed away from here and were reborn there. They think: ‘Having such ethical conduct loved by the noble ones, we passed away from there and were reborn here. That noble disciple has the same kind of ethical conduct loved by the noble ones, so they will come into the presence of the gods.’ . When someone has four things the gods are pleased and speak of what they have in common.”
May 20, 2019 at 1:13 pm #23242
If you looked at the Pali sutta, you would have seen that those are four Sotapatti Anga that needs to be fulfilled to attain the Sotapanna stage. So, yes, devas would be pleased. etc.
Devasabhāgata Stta (SN 55.36):
“Catūhi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgataṃ attamanā devā sabhāgataṃ kathenti. Katamehi catūhi? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgato hoti—itipi so bhagavā … pe … satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavāti. Yā tā devatā buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgatā ito cutā tatrūpapannā tāsaṃ evaṃ hoti: ‘yathārūpena kho mayaṃ buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgatā tato cutā idhūpapannā, ariyasāvakopi tathārūpena buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgato ehīti devānaṃ santike’ti.
Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako dhamme … pe … saṅghe … pe … ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato hoti akhaṇḍehi … pe … samādhisaṃvattanikehi. Yā tā devatā ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgatā ito cutā tatrūpapannā tāsaṃ evaṃ hoti: ‘yathārūpehi kho mayaṃ ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgatā tato cutā idhūpapannā, ariyasāvakopi tathārūpehi ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato ehīti devānaṃ santike’ti. Imehi kho, bhikkhave, catūhi dhammehi samannāgataṃ attamanā devā sabhāgataṃ kathentī”ti.
That is the complete sutta.
Those Sotapatti Anga are discussed here: “Sotapatti Anga – The Four Qualities of a Sotapanna“.
This is why say that most English translations do not provide meaningful explanations. In the English translation that you provided, the second paragraph in particular is not good.
– For everyone: Please make an effort to learn how to provide links. It is not hard: “How to Reply to a Forum Question“
May 20, 2019 at 3:27 pm #23247
When I copied and pasted the English plus the Pali version in conjunction and submitted,there showed a notification’not permitted’ in the Tags Box. Not the exact word, but one to that effect, I cannot recall it. When I deleted the Pali text (which ran sentence to sentence, English followed by Pali) the submitting was successful.
However, my whole point was: can these 4 Sotapatti Anga be considered as kusala kamma leading to punna, in turn leading to Nibbana ‘via’ a deva realm? -that very deva existence constituting the punna.
(I will have another go mastering how to provide a link at the next opportunity).
May 20, 2019 at 4:45 pm #23249
y not wrote: “However, my whole point was: can these 4 Sotapatti Anga be considered as kusala kamma leading to punna, in turn leading to Nibbana ‘via’ a deva realm? ”
Sotapatti Anga are four CONDITIONS to be fulfilled to attain the Sotapanna Stage. That is a change in one’s mindset: establishing unbreakable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and thus to attain an unbreakable sila.
– There is no need to “go through deva realms”.
– Some Sotapannas may be born in deva realms after death. Some may be born in Brahma realms if they had cultivated jhana. Some may just be reborn as humans.
– But of course, the devas who have attained Sotapanna stage and are born in deva realms would be delighted have more of such people born in deva realms.
– Anyway, I understand that you may be trying to say something else which may be true too (like doing a lot of punna kamma is likely to lead to rebirth in deva realms).
May 22, 2019 at 4:29 am #23273
All that is quite clear. Perhaps this is more like what I mean to say:
From the standpoint of one who has Sotapatti Anga, kusala/punna, dana, sila etc.constitute,or are part of, ariyakanta sila. They WILL lead to a deva, brahma (or a good human) birth since the attainment of Arahanthood in this day and age is rare. So now, wherever the performance of kusala/punna may lead OF THEMSELVES, all that has become subordinated to, or rather, absorbed into, incorporated into, ariyakanta sila.
One does kusala kamma solely with the concern of how it affects the other, now and hopefully in future lives too; it has become part of one’s nature- YET the punna, the good rebirth in human, deva or brahma realm will NONETHELESS follow,’on the way’ to Nibbana, the true Goal. Somewhat like when sharing merits: since that in itself is a meritorious deed, merit will accrue to the doer, even if he acts with no such intention.
Is there anything in all this that is flawed, incomplete or that you would revise.
May 22, 2019 at 5:46 am #23275
Yes, y not. What you stated above is correct.
As one’s understanding of the Four Noble Truths and Tilakkhana grows, one’s punna kamma will automatically become kusala kamma. So, one should just keep doing punna/kusala kamma and not worry so much about which category they actually belong to.
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