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Thank you for the suggestion. I will add it to the “to do” list. But I need to first finish the “Origin of Life” series.
Welcome to the forum, Paramitas!
We can get the basic idea by looking at existence in other realms. That gives a better perspective.
Everything happens due to causes and conditions. Each of us has been born due to a specific kamma vipaka.
– For example, a given animal is born due to a (bad) kamma vipaka. But a deva is born due to a good kamma vipaka.An animal cannot even sort out moral from immoral. A deva could, but the presence of so much “pleasures” prevents a deva from thinking about the possible suffering that can come for him in future births.
An ahetuka birth is much better than an animal birth but much worse than a dvihetuka or a tihetuka birth in the human realm.
– An ahtuka person does not have the mindset to comprehend Tilakkhana.
– But he/she can sort out moral from immoral and engage in meritorious deeds. That can lead to a better birth in the future, where one would be able to comprehend Tilakkhana.A dvihetuka person is in a better place. Even though he/she cannot comprehend Tilakkhana, he/she can make much more progress than an ahetuka person. That makes it much easier to get a Tihetuka birth in the future.
Because of the high-grade kamma that led to this birth, a tihetuka person is BORN with the necessary wisdom to comprehend Tilakkhana. Of course, one must make the effort.
On the other hand, an animal is in a very bad place. It is unable to do anything on making progress. It has to wait until a good kamma done in the past to come to the “front of the line” to get any kind of human birth. This is why births in the apayas make one helpless in the rebirth process. That is what is meant by anatta, becoming helpless.
Therefore, a human is better off with any type of birth than most living beings in other realms. We just need to do our best. Results WILL come according to the efforts.
More details at “Patisandhi Citta – How the Next Life is Determined According to Gati”
– I just revised that post.P.S. Each of levels ahetuka, dvihetuka, and tihetuka also can be sub-divided into three categories: low, medium, and high. For example, a tihetuka birth at the highest level has a much higher level of wisdom, etc.
“So I understand that the destination of a Sakadagami Anugami will be just the same as if he were a Sotapanna; that effort does not NECESSARILY translate into a better realm than the human one after death unless Sakadagami-hood is attained (for even Sotapannas MAY attain a deva existence – the difference of course being that for a Sakadagami that deva existence would be his last in the kamaloka)
Is this correct?”
Not really. The progress cannot be measured just in terms of “change of bhava”.
– One may have not reached the next destination, but one may have covered a significant portion of that distance. That is an analogy.Lang asked, “Is it correct to say that a Sotapanna Anugami is one who has attained sotapatti magga, and that a Sotapanna is one who has attained sotapatti phala?”
There is some confusion because of the terms used.
1. One becomes a Sotapanna Anugami (one on the way to become a Sotapanna) when one has removed the 10 types of miccha ditthi, learns about the correct Tilakkhana, and has STARTED comprehending those Tilakkhana.
2. When that person makes progress in the comprehension of the “unfruitful nature of this world”, at some point he/she would complete that phase and actually become a Sotapanna.
– At that MOMENT, two CONSECUTIVE citta flow through his/her mind, the Sotapanna MAGGA CITTA, and the Sotapannna PHALA CITTA. At that INSTANT, he/she becomes a Sotapanna.The confusion comes when the difference between those two things is not understood.
This can be further clarified by the following. That Sotapanna does not necessarily become a Sakadagami Anugami UNTIL he/she keeps working towards the Sakadagami stage.
– Here, one does not even need to know that one has become a Sotapanna. As long as one is making an effort (viriya) on making progress, that person WILL BE a Sakadagami Anugami.
– Then one actually BECOMES a Sakadagami when one goes through the Sakadagami magga citta followed by the Sakadagami phala citta (that is a higher level of comprehending Tilakkhana).
– That is how there are EIGHT Noble Persons. Each Nibbanic stage (Sotapnna to Arahant) is associated with two “Noble Person states”.P.S. Just yesterday I revised the following relevant post: “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“
That just means a Sotapanna Anugami (or higher) will never lose the Ariya (Noble Person) status, Tobias.
Once born an Ariya (i.e., becomes a Sotapanna Anugami), one will not go back to an “average human” (puthujjana) status. That is why it is in quotes in “never “die”.
– Of course, there will likely be one up to many “physical deaths” until the Arahant stage is attained.
– But he/she is free of the apayas forever.
– Pu it in another way, one has removed the 10 types of miccha ditthi and has started seeing the anicca (and dukkha and anatta) nature of this world.” Are the internal rupa (pasada rupa) always ayatana even when just seeing an object (vipaka vinnana)?”
I was thinking about how to handle that. It is not a clear-cut issue and that is why I did not address it (I can write only so much in a given post). I will discuss this in more detail in the next post.
We can say for sure that an Arahant will use pasada rupa as indriya at ALL TIMES.
A normal human may or may not use a given indriya as ayatana. But it happens often. Furthermore, indriya becomes ayatana in varying degrees, depending on how strong the sensory attraction is.
– Even for the same external object, two people will “get attached” in different degrees. One may “fall in love” with a given woman, but another may just be attracted. A third person may not even be attracted. It is relative.“It will be impossible, because ‘inhumane’, to stop those ‘mind-made’ somanassa vedana from arising – UNLESS one has reached the Anagami stage.”
Yes. That is true.
– It is done by cultivating panna (wisdom).
– Even a Sotapanna only KNOWS that such ‘mind-made’ somanassa vedana are bad. But until he/she comprehends the next level of Tilakkhana, such thoughts WILL arise.
– That is why attaining the Anagami stage is so hard. No one said it is easy.The Path needs to be followed step-by-step. See, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”
– Also read, “Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda”Please read the posts that recommend. I cannot write everything in a single post. So, I provide links to other posts. This is a general comment to everyone.
Johnny wrote: “Say an arahant is served some tasty food. Would the arahant think that the food that he is consuming is delicious?”
Yes. I have emphasized this many times. See, for example, “Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda“.
– I recommend reading the above post carefully.
– But an Arahant would not get attached to that taste, and crave for more. That is not by will power. That is through understanding. This is a hard point for many to understand.“On the other hand, if some wicked person wants to test the arahant by serving him rotten food, would the arahant think the food that he just tasted is terrible or even unfit for consumption?”
– Yes. An Arahant would taste bad food as such.I think your questions will have answers in the above post. Please ask questions if something is not clear.
– Saltiness, sweetness, bitter, etc are applicable to all with human bodies. They are called kama guna.y not wrote: “Now going back to the instance of that brahmin and his wife, surely their exclamation, on SEEING the Buddha ‘where have you been, my son, all this time’ was made with vedana, and very strong vedana at that (somanassa, in this case). And the connections via relation lay in the deep past (vipaka) – the furthest as far back as 1,500 lifetimes, if the ones when they had been uncle/aunt and grand-father/mother are included. This does not accord with : “Vedana coming through the other four physical sense inputs are neutral. Any pleasant or unpleasant vedana that we may experience are ALL mind-made, and NOT due to kamma vipaka”.
There is no contradiction.
When they recall their past lives, the “vipaka vedana” that comes with the “vipaka vinnana” is neutral.
– But then they start generating MIND-MADE pleasant vedana (called somanassa vedana) based on that recalled memory.Only bodily vedana (felt by the physical body) due to vipaka vinnana can bring sukha (or dukha).
So, the key is to distinguish between the following:
– sukha/dukha vedana that can arise due to kamma vipaka are felt only by the physical body. They can be body pains, injuries, cancer in the body, etc.
– Somanassa/domanassa vedana are both mind-made. They arise when one starts “mentally enjoying/worrying” about some event.It is important to realize that somanassa/domanassa vedana will arise immediately following the recalling event. So, it may appear that they are intrinsically due to the recalling of the event.
– One needs to think about the mental state of the person recalling the event. The Buddha, of course, recalled the same event but did not form any somanassa/domanassa vedana.This is somewhat relevant to the new post today, “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna”
Invo wrote: “Goenkaji teaches that eradication of kamma beeja as essential part of the practice and he puts great emphasis upon that.”
If anyone can give me a reference from the Tipitaka that Arahanthood can be attained by eradication of kamma beeja, I would appreciate it. As far as I know, there is no such statement, or even implication, in the Tipitaka. Arahanthood is attained by the removal of greed, anger, and ignorance from one’s mind. When one does that any existing kamma beeja will become non-effective.
– We need to highlight such false claims. They lead to the spreading of bad impressions about Buddha Dhamma, and can set many people back on their progress on the Path.Invo wrote: “I understand anicca, dukkha, anatta of 31 completely. I believe my samma ditthi is complete and EXPERIENCED.”
– I am glad to hear that. Your description above that sounds very good.
– In your earlier post you mentioned that you are writing your Ph.D. thesis on Jhanas. You may find some information on Tipitaka references at “Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala” and “Power of the Human Mind“
Please direct any questions on the new post, “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna” here.
I will repeat just the topic of each question.
Question: 1) Is there such a vipaka sukha (sapa) vedana for even an arahant that he experiences?
Pleasant and unpleasant vedana that come through the body (kaya vinnana) are kamma vipaka (due to good/bad kamma done in the past). Those are called sukha and dukkha vedana. Even Arahants (and the Buddha) experienced those.
Vedana coming through the other four physical sense inputs are neutral. Any pleasant or unpleasant vedana that we may experience are ALL mind-made, and NOT due to kamma vipaka. They are called “samphassa ja vedana”. They are also called “somanassa/domanassa vedana”. Arahant DO NOT experience those.
– See, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways”
– Also see, “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa”
By the way, I highly recommend the series of posts on “Paticca Samuppada in Plain English”Question: 2) The pleasure that “comes our way”. Is it still bound to our gathi?
Whatever somanassa/domanassa vedana that we make on our own are due to our gathi (or gati). An Arahant has removed all gati and does not experience those ‘samphassa ja vedana” per the above explanation.
Your comment, “it is only attractive because of our gathi. But this process of our defilements coming up as manosankhara does not create kamma.” It is not fully correct. There are some kamma vipaka due to mano sankhara that arise even with vipaka vinnana. But they cannot bring rebirth. So, I may not have specified that.
– When we start doing vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara (those are done CONSCIOUSLY), that is when we generate strong kamma that can lead to rebirths.
You wrote, “Only once we start with sankalpita rāga (which happens from the time it turns to vaci sankhara which happens pretty much immediately after the Avyakata PS has run – IF there is gathi).”
– That is correct.
– By the way, “sankalpita raga” are vaci sankhara (talking to oneself). That will become clear if you read the posts mentioned under question #1.I am not sure what you mean by, “So again I am confused how this concept of sukha/dukha vedana that comes from dhamma loka and even an arahant experiences fits in.”
– Please feel free to re-phrase that part, if it is not resolved from the above explanation.Hello Invo,
I hope I was not too blunt. But sometimes, that helps to get the point across. I am glad that it did not turn you off completely. Sometimes that happens too. So, it is a gamble.You wrote: “I just wanted to share for consideration the idea of stream entry as fruit of eradication of kamma beeja related to apayas through samadhi and brahma-viharas practice.”
This idea of “erasing bad kamma” is non-existent in Buddha Dhamma. It could be a concept from Hinduism. Does Ajahn Brahm teach that?
For example, Angulimala killed 999 people. But he was able to attain Arahanthood in a couple of weeks. He did that not by “erasing his bad kamma”, but by cultivating wisdom (panna).
– When one gets to Samma Ditthi, one will not “upadana” (or willingly grasp or embrace”) any future bhava compatible with a defiled mind.
– – One needs to understand Paticca Samuppada to really grasp that concept.To put it in a different way, there are TWO important outcomes of getting to Samma Ditthi.
– FIRST is that one would not generate new bad kamma starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara”. But that does not erase any existing bad kamma.
– The SECOND is what I mentioned above. One would stop generating new bad births (especially in the apayas), by stopping the steps, “tanha paccaya upadana”, “upadana paccaya bhava”, and “bhava paccaya jati”.
– That is why the removal of avijja and tanha go together. They are irradicated in four steps: Sotapanna, SAKADAGAMI, Anagami, Arahant.
– Therefore, it is not “eradication of kamma beeja”, but “eradication of avijja and tanha, which leads to various stages of Nibbana.You wrote: “Btw. how long do you both practice these techniques?
Perhaps the “dark night” you’re criticizing has just not come yet? Or perhaps it does not come when practicing properly ;)”My way of practicing is vipassana. But it is not Goenka’s type of vipassana. I have discussed it in the Meditation section.
– You are correct in saying that such “dark nights” are not experienced if one practices the correct way. I have not had even bad dreams for many years.
– Practicing Buddha Dhamma is not just formal mediation. It involves many things, starting with a moral life. I spend most of the day just contemplating Dhamma concepts. Writing posts for the website helps me too since it forces me to think deeply and make sure what I write is not in contradiction to the Tipitaka. Answering forum questions do the same thing.
– “Ragakkhayo Nibbanam, Dosakkhayo Nibbanam, Mohakkhayo Nibbanam”. One WILL experience the “cooling down effect” of Nibbana as one gets rid of greed, anger, and ignorance (of the Four Noble Truths) by cultivating wisdom (panna). That means cultivating Samma Ditthi. That means getting rid of wrong views such as “past kamma beeja can be irradicated”. One just makes them “ineffective”.
– Learning and contemplating on the Four Noble Truths (which involve Tilakkhana and Paticca Samuppada) is the key. One needs to understand the true nature of this world of 31 realms.Thanks for the videos. I just watched 14 to 22 minutes of the video that you suggested. That was enough for me.
I don’t like to be disrespectful. But I do not like to “beat around the bush” either.
He has no idea about what is meant by “sampajano”. He says it is all about arising and passing away of sensations. And one gets to Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Aranaht stages just by doing that!!?
– Exactly where in the Tipitaka such an explanation is given?Sampajano means “sorting out “san” or defilements. I have disucssed it at “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“.
The verse “ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam“ is explained at “Satipatthāna Sutta – Structure“.
– I would like to hear your opinion on that post.Finally, there was a long discussion on the Goenka technique in the discussion forum: “Goenka´s Vipassana“.
– You may want to read that. Several people have commented based on their experiences and I have given my opinion there in detail.Jhanas are not necessary to attain magga phala. But cultivating jhanas is not bad unless one gets too attached to them. Jhanic experiences are the mental states of rupacavara and arupavacara brahmas. So, they are still within the rebirth process.
– When one cultivates jhanas, one can be born in those brahma realms. However, those brahmas, at the end of life there are reborn in lower realms, including the apayas.
– Jhanas and magga phala are two different things. While jhanas can help to get magga phala, they are not necessary: “Samādhi, Jhāna, Magga Phala – Introduction”I would be happy to discuss if you can point out anything that I have written in those posts that is not consistent with the Tipitaka. I do understand that many people are impressed by those “jhanic experiences”. One thing I always point out is that Devadatta had cultivated all those jhanas, and even abhinna powers. But he ended up in the apayas.
– What is most important is to comprehend the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of this world, which includes those brahma realms.
– Has Goenka discussed anicca, dukkha, anatta? If so, I would appreciate it if you can point to a video where he has discussed them. I would like to listen and provide my feedback.“Are these estimates trustworthy at all? For then those deva realms would come within the gravitational pull of those nearer(to them) planets during the course of their orbits around the Sun rather than that of the Earth.”
For the reasons that you have given, I would not trust such estimates. I also do not see any benefit of knowing exactly where they are located either.
