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Hello Zapper,
First, you should have been able to put in the full text. There is no need to break up a post into many pieces. I have combined your posts into one. If you run into the same problem, please send me an email describing what happens: [email protected].
Your reference at Sutta Central is a complex Abhidhamma analysis of Paticca Samuppada.
– Most people can’t understand that analysis until the basic version of Paticca Samuppada is understood.
– That is why there is no English translation for that at Sutta Central. They don’t understand it either.
– Tobias G understands that complex process. That is why he commented above. But it requires a lengthy explanation.There are a few versions, even in the basic versions of Paticca Samuppada (PS).
– “Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda” describes PS processes that take place within a lifetime.
– “Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda (How We Create Our Own Rebirths)” describes the PS process responsible for future rebirths.It is best first to understand the Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda.
– I have described it in detail: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime“P.S. It means “anger/hate.”
See, “Pañca Nīvaraṇa and Sensual Pleasures (Kāma Rāga)”
Also, see my reply to Siebe’s question: “difference between vyapada sankappa and vihimsa sankappa”
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Hello Zapper,
They mean the same.
– Depending on how one pronounces the Pali word, it can be written as vyāpādo or byāpādo.
– I see that both versions are used even by the same people, including me.Niramisa sukha is at different levels.
– Niramisa sukha of an Anagami is higher than that of a Sotapanna, for example.
– Once one has a magga phala, niramisa sukha corresponding to that stage WILL NOT decrease.An average human may have niramisa sukha, too, when living a moral life.
– But, that can decrease if that person gradually moves to an immoral lifestyle. Normally that happens under the influence of “bad friends” (“bad influences.”)That is why the eight levels of magga phala (Sotapanna Anugami to Arahant) are special. Once understanding sets in at a certain level, it (and the corresponding niramisa sukha) will NEVER go away.
Please keep in mind that it is better not to open too many new threads. You could have asked this question in the old thread.
Hello Zapper,
You have asked the same question before and I have answered:
“Progression of niramisa sukha”I will delete this thread in a few days.
Comments by Lang and Dawson do make sense.
Seng Kiat is an Abhidhamma scholar. He enjoys “looking deeper” as I do too.
The types of indriya listed in Seng Kiat’s earlier post:
“Bāvīsat’ indriyāni: cakkhundriyaṃ, sotindriyaṃ, ghānindriyaṃ, jivhindriyaṃ, kāyindriyaṃ, itthindriyaṃ, purisindriyaṃ, jīvitindriyaṃ, manindriyaṃ, sukhindriyaṃ, dukkhindriyaṃ, somanassindriyaṃ, domanassindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ, saddhindriyaṃ, viriyindriyaṃ, satindriyaṃ, samādhindriyaṃ, paññindriyaṃ, anaññātaññassāmītindriyaṃ, aññindriyaṃ, aññātāvindriyaṃ.
Twenty-two faculties: (1) the eye faculty, (2) the ear faculty, (3) the nose faculty, (4) the tongue faculty, (5) the body faculty, (6) the femininity faculty, (7) the masculinity faculty, (8) the life faculty, (9) the mind faculty, (10) the pleasure faculty, (11) the pain faculty, (12) the joy faculty, (13) the displeasure faculty, (14) the equanimity faculty, (15) the faith faculty, (16) the energy faculty, (17) the mindfulness faculty, (18) the concentration faculty, (19) the wisdom faculty, (20) the faculty, “I will know the unknown,” (21) the faculty of final knowledge, (22) the faculty of one who has final knowledge.
The last three types are the three types of ñāna grasped, respectively, at Sotapanna, higher magga phala leading to the Arahant stage, and at the Arahant stage.
– At the Sotapanna stage, one realizes that one has “seen” the way to Nibbana, i.e., one would have the anaññātaññassāmītindriya. That is why the Buddha called Ven. Kondanna “aññā Kndanna” upon him attaining the Sotapanna stage.
– At higher levels of magga phala, aññindriya grows as one meditates on the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature and comprehends them at higher levels.
– An Arahant has the aññātāvindriya, meaning he/she knows that the process is complete and there is nothing more to do.There is no connection to jhana.
See “Indriya Sutta (Iti 62)”
– The English translation is not quite right, but you can get the idea.1. It is not good to propagate things that may lead to misconceptions. There are many misconceptions about jhanas today. They can have very bad consequences.
– For example, I know that some people are discouraged by their inability to attain jhanas. But some of them may even have the Sotapanna Anugami stage. The specific conditions REQUIRED to attain Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna stages are listed in over 70 suttas (same conditions) provided in my previous comment above.
(P.S. I realized later that the English translation in those 70 suttas do not explain TWO keywords: “aveccappasāda” and “Ariyakanta sīla.” See, “Cakkavattirāja Sutta (SN 55.1)”
– Those REQUIRE the comprehension of the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada.
– That is explained in the post, “Sotapatti Anga – The Four Qualities of a Sotāpanna.” See #4 there.)– I am also aware of some who believe they have Ariya jhanas, but they live normal family lives. They are being misled. As I have shown, one needs to be an Anagami to attain even the first Ariya jhana.
2. All that is REQUIRED to attain ANY magga phala is “anuloma samadhi.”
– That is shown at the end of the post, “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs” where the conditions for magga phala and jhana are listed.Christian wrote: “There are plenty of suttas that say you can attain Nibbana, through jhanas, I would say the majority.”
1. Please provide the names of the suttas that say jhanas are REQUIRED to attain the Sotapanna stage.
– As one attains higher magga phala, jhanas come naturally to some people.
– By the Arahant stage, most may have attained all Ariya jhanas. That is especially the case for Cetovimutta Arahants.2. Also, anariya jhanas are very common. But just having jhanas DOES NOT NECESSARILY mean one is even at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– But, of course, it is a good thing to attain even anariya jhanas.
– Also, some at the Sotapanna stage may have anariya jhanas too.
– So, there are many possibilities/combinations.3. Jhanic states correspond to the “consciousness” of Brahmas in the Brahmas realms.
– Most of them don’t have magga phala and are “not released” from future births in the apayas.Hello Christian,
Can you show evidence from the Tipitaka that cultivating jhanas is needed to attain magga phala?
There are over 70 suttas in the “Sotāpatti Saṁyutta” that repeatedly state the four “measures” that one can use to determine whether one has attained the Sotapanna stage of Nibbana.
The series of suttas start with “Cakkavattirāja Sutta (SN 55.1).”
The English translation there is sufficient to get the basic idea. That first sutta starts by saying that an Emperor who controls all the countries on Earth (rājā cakkavattī) does not even come close to a Sotapanna who is free of births in the apayas.
Those suttas repeatedly state the “four possessions” of Sotapannas that make them free of the apayas.
P.S. I realized later that the English translation in the above link does not explain TWO keywords: “aveccappasāda” and “Ariyakanta sīla.”
– Those REQUIRE the comprehension of the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada.
– That is explained in the post, “Sotapatti Anga – The Four Qualities of a Sotāpanna.” See #4 there.#1. Yes. That is correct.
#2. I am not sure what you mean by “transcendental” kusala-mula p.s.
– There is one kusala-mula P.S.
– A Kusala-mula P.S. will be in effect ONLY when one does kusala kamma. That means no one below that Sotapanna Anugami stage can be engaged in Kusala-mula P.S.
– All others engage only in punna kamma. Those are “good, moral deeds” done by anyone without comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada.
– The same deeds would become kusala kamma if they are done with the comprehension of the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada. Note that even Noble Persons (Sotapanna Anugami through Arahant anugami) will not be engaged in kusala kamma all the time.
– An Arahant will not be engaged in either kusala-mula or akusala-mula P.S.
– Please read the posts referred to in my previous post too.1. Lang (cubobi)’s explanation is right, except for the following: “Like you said, an arahant still engages in kusala sankhara, which does not bring kamma vinnana.”
An Arahant would not generate either akusala sankhara or kusala sankhara.
– The first is obvious. The second is because an Arahant does not have any defilements to remove. “Kusala” means to “get rid of defilements.” See #11 of “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma”2. To further clarify, we can take the following question from the TripleGemStudent: “If I was to connect an Arahant’s Kamma vinnana to P.S. Is that Arahants would only carry out sankhara’s (or Kamma vinnana) based on the avyakata or kusala-mula (transcendental) P.S. Is this correct?”
– An Arahant generates sankhara but NOT abhisankhara.
– Such sankhara are generated ONLY via avyakata P.S. As mentioned above, kusala-mula and akusala-mula PS do not apply to an Arahant.3. An avyakata P.S. does not have the “avijja paccaya sankhara” step.
– Sankhara (not abhisankhara) is generated when an arammana comes to the mind via one of the six senses. That happens, for example, via “cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ”
– That cakkhu vinnana is a vipaka vinnana and not a kamma vinnana.
– The relevant sankhara are those arising together with that vipaka vinnana.
– See, “Chachakka Sutta – Six Types of Vipāka Viññāna”P.S. Another set of sankhara may arise if the Arahant speaks or take actions according to the arammana.
– For example, suppose the Arahant is asked to explain a Dhamma concept. That request comes to the mind as a vipaka vinnana through the ears (sota vinnana), which would have associated vedana and sanna; those are the automatic “mano sankhara” associated with that sota vinnana.
– Now, the Arahant will start speaking. That happens with javana citta. But those vaci sankhara are completely devoid of lobha, dosa, moha, and thus are NOT abhisankhara.
– See, “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa.”
– I wrote that post sometime back. So, let me know if it is not clear.You wrote: “although sensual pleasures directly do not creates suffering, when they are experienced, there is chance that we might attach to them. I am afraid of such attachment.”
That is a concise way to put it.
1. The easiest way to see the “mechanism” is to see what happens at the Anagami stage.
– An Anagami may experience sensory pleasures that MATERIALIZE as “good kamma vipaka,” but their mind WILL NOT attach to such pleasures. Of course, they WILL NOT engage in INTENDED “pleasure activities” like sex.
– That is because their minds have truly “seen/realized” the bad consequences of rebirths even in human and Deva realms (realms in kama loka above the apayas.)2. In the same way, a Sotapanna/Sotapnna Anugami WILL NOT engage in apayagami deeds even under the most tempting conditions.
– This is not something that can be easily tested, like whether one is an Anagami or not.
– As I have explained before, one quick way to check whether one is an Anagami is to watch an adult/X-rated movie. If no sexual urge arises, it is quite likely that one is an Anagami. Of course, a medical condition could also be responsible for that, so one must be careful.3. Another, and a better, way is to use Paticca Samuppada. See, “Paṭicca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha” + ‘Sama+uppāda’.” The following is a brief summary (you may know this, but for the benefit of others).
– Paṭicca = paṭi + icca; here, “paṭi” is bonding, and “icca” (pronounced “ichcha”) is liking. Thus, Paṭicca is “bonding to something willingly” or “getting attached to something through a liking for it.”
– This bonding depends on one’s gati (habits and likings), which in turn are due to deep-seated āsavas (cravings). Note that “gati” is pronounced as “gathi.”
– Samuppāda = “sama” (same or similar) + “uppāda” (generation), i.e., an existence (bhava) of similar quality or kind. Thus samuppāda means leading to existence or experience corresponding to defilements that made one attach to the situation (ārammaṇa) in the first place.
– Putting all that together, we see that when one is engaging in certain activities (via likings for them), births in realms where such activities present are INEVITABLE.
– For example, if one can be sexually attracted to another person, then one will likely generate relevant abhisankhara (related to thoughts, speech, and actions) accordingly. That means “bhava” and “jati (births)” in the “kama loka” will take place. Only an Anagami or an Arahant would have overcome such births. For that to happen, one would have not only “seen that mechanism” but ALSO would have comprehended the mechanism at a deeper level. One “sees” the mechanism when the “ditthi vipallasa” is removed. But the deeper understanding comes when “sanna vipallasa” and “citta vipallasa” are also removed. See, “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra”
– However, to get to the Sotapanna Anugami stage, one just needs to remove diṭṭhi vipallāsa. That means one would have understood how different types of (abhi)sankhara generated via different levels of avijjā (“avijja paccaya sankhara“) lead to CORRESPONDING bhava and jati (births) in various realms.
– If that understanding is true, then one is likely to be a Sotapanna Anugami. That also means one would have “seen” the anicca nature of engaging in apayagami actions. Such a mind WILL NOT and CAN NOT be forced to apayagami actions. No willpower is needed to avoid apayagami actions. One needs to remove sanna vipallasa and citta vipallasa (in stages) to progress above the Sotapanna stage.
– Again, there is no easy way to do that test. But that is the principle. In fact, the Four Noble Truths, Tilakkhana, and Paticca Samuppada are inter-related. If one understands one of them, one would understand the other two as well. See, “Paṭicca Samuppāda, Tilakkhana, Four Noble Truths”That is a long answer. But I wanted to give a general answer that could be helpful for anyone.
P.S. Please read and understand the relevant posts suggested above before asking more questions. Answers to most questions are there in those posts. If something in those posts is not clear, please feel free to cite the post and bullet numbers and ask questions.
Hello LayDhammafollower,
Even though no one but a Buddha can know the state of another person’s mind, it is possible that you could be a Sotapanna Anugami or getting close to it.
1. It could be helpful to broaden your understanding to the long-term, i.e., the samsaric scale.
– You are looking at this human world and seeing the suffering EXPERIENCED by humans. You may be seeing a contradiction because some people may not EXPERIENCE much suffering even until death (for example, a healthy, wealthy individual dying from a sudden heart attack.)
– However, the SUFFERING that the Buddha referred to was NOT the suffering one experiences now, but CAUSES FOR FUTURE SUFFERING.
– In fact, the recent post discussed exactly that: “Noble Truth of Suffering- Pañcupādānakkhandhā Dukkhā.” You may want to read that subsection too: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime”
– Thus, even that person who “lived happily and died a sudden death” likely accumulated more causes for future suffering. Unless he were at least a Sotapanna Anugami, he would have enjoyed the sensory pleasures and strived to seek more such pleasures. Such efforts only lead to more future suffering.
– The Buddha never said that there are no sensory pleasures in this world. There is no problem in experiencing sensory pleasures. The problem is to ATTACH TO such sensory pleasures and to engage in activities that will prolong the rebirth process. In fact, Deva realms have much more pleasures than we could ever imagine. Even though they have much longer lifetimes as well, those “pleasurable lives” INEVITABLY come to an end, and then they will also end up in the four misery realms (apayas) at some point. That is why we need to look at the “big picture.”
– The article that you referred to at the end only has a very narrow focus. It is possible for life on Earth to be severely affected in many ways, not only by environmental issues. For example, a comet impact can wipe out most of life on Earth, and there is emerging evidence that such events happened in the past.2. You wrote: “but, I still feel like something is missing from my understanding. I feel like I have incomplete understanding. I do not know why but it is case. I still cannot give up on craving to everything.”
– It is very likely that one would NOT lose ALL cravings for sensory pleasures even at the Sotapanna stage, not just Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– “Cravings” are at different levels. A Sotapanna Anugami loses cravings ONLY to the extent that they WILL NOT do apayagami actions based on cravings. Only at that Anagami stage would one lose all cravings for sensory pleasures in the “kama loka.” That is why a Sotapanna or a Sotapnna Anugami will be reborn in the higher realms of “kama loka.” An Anagami would not be reborn in the “kama loka.” See, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”3. You wrote: “I feel like my not having achieved magga phala might have to do something with kammic obstructions.”
– It is also possible that you can overcome any such effects. It may just need a bit more effort.Regardless of the stage of magga phala, one should always be respectful to the parents.
– Getting a physical human body is not easy. There are so many humans trapped in the gandhabba state waiting to be born with a human body. Our parents provided that opportunity for us, and we should be grateful.Of course, anyone at or above the Sotapanna Anugami stage is a Noble Person, and everyone else has not transcended the “satta” (or “satva“) state and can be reborn in the animal realm or the other three lowest realms.
