Tagged: kasina meditation, kasina objects
- This topic has 17 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 11 months, 4 weeks ago by Yash RS.
December 29, 2021 at 10:19 am #36409
This comment is from Tobias:
See: “Mahāsakuludāyi Sutta (MN 77)- With English Translation at Sutta Central”
Puna caparaṁ, udāyi, akkhātā mayā sāvakānaṁ paṭipadā, yathāpaṭipannā me sāvakā dasa kasiṇāyatanāni bhāventi.
Pathavīkasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhamadho tiriyaṁ advayaṁ appamāṇaṁ;
āpokasiṇameko sañjānāti …pe… tejokasiṇameko sañjānāti … vāyokasiṇameko sañjānāti … nīlakasiṇameko sañjānāti … pītakasiṇameko sañjānāti … lohitakasiṇameko sañjānāti … odātakasiṇameko sañjānāti … ākāsakasiṇameko sañjānāti … viññāṇakasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhamadho tiriyaṁ advayaṁ appamāṇaṁ.
The translation says: “Furthermore, I have explained to my disciples a practice that they use to develop the ten universal dimensions of meditation …”
So it seems the Buddha taught kasina meditation. Or does it mean something different?
December 29, 2021 at 10:27 am #36410
Yes. There is a kasina mediation in Buddha Dhamma.
– It DOES NOT use kasina objects.
More details on Buddhist kasina mediation in the “Mahārāhulovāda Sutta (MN 62)”.
– “Mahārāhulovāda Sutta (MN 62) – With English Translation at Sutta Central”
I have not read the English translations of both suttas. So, I don’t know how accurate they are.
– But if there is any mention of kasina objects, please point that out. I can take a look.
December 29, 2021 at 5:03 pm #36411
The following comment is by Tobias:
I still cannot post. What is meant by the word kasina? Sutta Central says: all, whole, entire.
Sorry to hear that, Tobias. Try a different browser if possible.
The word “kasina” has roots in “khīṇa” or “to wear away.” It is used in the mundane sense by ancient yogis and also in the lokottara sense in Buddha Dhamma.
1. The yogis had realized that keeping one’s mind away from sensual pleasures will lead to the “wearing away of the tendency to attach to sensual pleasures” and thus to get into jhana.
– So, they used inert “kasina objects” to keep the mind focused on non-sensual arammana and were able to get into jhanas.
– In a way, “breath meditation” is a form of kasina mediation using air as a “kasina object.”
2. In Buddha Dhamma “wearing away of defilements” is done on a permanent basis using insight meditation (by cultivating wisdom or paññā).
– A special case is to contemplate the true nature pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, and that is in the two suttas mentioned earlier.
It would take a post to expand on that. I just don’t have time right now.
The following discourse by Waharaka Thero also explains the above briefly:
“කසින භාවනා සහ දුතාංග“
December 30, 2021 at 4:34 am #36413Tobias GParticipant
Yesterday I tried with two browsers: BRAVE and CHROME. Both with the same result.
Anyway the word “kasina” makes sense.
June 11, 2022 at 2:39 pm #37994dosakkhayoParticipant
While reading Nettippakarana, I found the following phrase.
Dasa kasiṇāyatanāni pathavīkasiṇaṁ āpokasiṇaṁ tejokasiṇaṁ vāyokasiṇaṁ nīlakasiṇaṁ pītakasiṇaṁ lohitakasiṇaṁ odātakasiṇaṁ ākāsakasiṇaṁ viññāṇakasiṇaṁ. Tattha yañca pathavīkasiṇaṁ yañca āpokasiṇaṁ evaṁ sabbaṁ, yañca odātakasiṇaṁ. Imāni aṭṭha kasiṇāni samatho. Yañca ākāsakasiṇaṁ yañca viññāṇakasiṇaṁ, ayaṁ vipassanā. Evaṁ sabbo ariyo maggo yena yena ākārena vutto, tena tena samathavipassanena yojayitabbo.
The link is here. https://suttacentral.net/ne21/pli/ms
I have already read the contents of the thread and understood what was mentioned.
But I want to understand the rest of part. What do’nīlakasiṇaṁ pītakasiṇaṁ lohitakasiṇaṁ odātakasiṇaṁ’ stand for?
How do blue, yellow, red, white kasina actually work in Buddhist meditation? I’d like to know the connection of color kasina and samatha bhavana.
June 11, 2022 at 7:03 pm #38005
Good question, Dosakkhayo.
1. The concepts of jhana and kasina have been badly interpreted in current Theravada texts.
– Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga is mostly responsible for that.
2. We need to start with understanding the FUNDAMENTAL idea of Nibbana.
– Even though relatively little suffering manifests in realms higher than the human realm, a “living being” spending most of the Samsaric journey in the lowest four realms (apayas) filled with suffering. Thus, the Buddha taught that this world of 31 realms is filled with suffering.
3. “Full Nibbana” (Parinibbana or the “complete release from suffering”) is attained at the death of an Arahant. That Arahant will not be reborn in any of the 31 realms.
I need to keep repeating those basics because many people have not grasped those ideas (I am not directing this to Dosakkhayo). I just want to emphasize the foundation.
4. Thus, any meditation where the focus of the mind is a “worldly object” CAN NOT be a Buddhist meditation.
– In the “Samādhi Sutta (AN 10.6)” the Buddha explained that to Ven. Ananda.
– There Ven. Ananda asks the Buddha whether there is a Samatha meditation (samādhi bhāvanā) in Buddha Dhamma that is not based on kasina or other (e.g., breath) meditation.
– Instead of contemplating worldly things, one MUST contemplate the unfruitful nature of worldly things. That is vipassana meditation (as explained in the Anapanasati Sutta and in even more detail in the Satipatthana Sutta.
– If someone with magga phala likes to cultivate jhana (with Samatha meditation) they should contemplate the Nibbana that they have experienced (at that level):
“‘etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.”
– While anariya yogis get to Samatha (and anariya jhana) with the traditional kasina and breath meditation (detailed in Visuddhimagga) Ariyas (Nobel Persons) attain Nibbana with the above verse.
– That is what the Buddha explained to Ven. Ananda. The above verse is in that sutta. Note that the English translation could be misleading in some places, but one can get the general idea with my explanation. That translator, just like any other current Theravada teacher, still practices traditional kasina/breath meditations!
5. Of course, #4 requires more details. I will start on a series of posts on jhana/kasina with the next post.
– I just got started on a series of posts on Anapanasati, but that needs to be on hold.
– That is fine because this background on jhana/kasina should be understood first.
6. Let me address the question by Dosakkhayo briefly. I will discuss that in detail in the upcoming posts. The following is the verse he quoted:
“Dasa kasiṇāyatanāni pathavīkasiṇaṁ āpokasiṇaṁ tejokasiṇaṁ vāyokasiṇaṁ nīlakasiṇaṁ pītakasiṇaṁ lohitakasiṇaṁ odātakasiṇaṁ ākāsakasiṇaṁ viññāṇakasiṇaṁ. Tattha yañca pathavīkasiṇaṁ yañca āpokasiṇaṁ evaṁ sabbaṁ, yañca odātakasiṇaṁ. Imāni aṭṭha kasiṇāni samatho. Yañca ākāsakasiṇaṁ yañca viññāṇakasiṇaṁ, ayaṁ vipassanā. Evaṁ sabbo ariyo maggo yena yena ākārena vutto, tena tena samathavipassanena yojayitabbo.”
– Note that the verse refers to “Dasa kasiṇāyatana” or “ten kasina āyatana“.
– This DOES NOT refer to kasina OBJECTS.
– Anything in this world related to one or more of those “kasina āyatana“. Material things are made of pathavi, apo, tejo, and vayo and are located in ākāsa. Some objects have colors represented by nila, pita, lohita, and odāta. All “nāma dhammā” are associated with viññāṇa.
– Thus, to get to Nibbana (Arahanthood) saññā for all ten of those kasina āyatana must be uprooted. That needs a detailed explanation. That is what I will be doing with the new series of posts.
7. The relevant point to remember is the following.
– Traditional kasina meditations or breath meditation can get one to jhana. One who cultivated such jhana WILL BE reborn in a Brahma realm.
– However, once that lifetime ends, rebirth in the human realm will take place first, and after that rebirth in ANY realm (including apayas) will again be “in effect”. That is why it is useless to cultivate traditional kasina meditation (with kasina objects like clay balls/water bowls, etc) or with breath meditation.
June 12, 2022 at 4:02 am #38013dosakkhayoParticipant
Thank you for your explanation. I’m looking forward to the new series.
June 12, 2022 at 2:45 am #38011
Can a Noble person attain Ariya jhanas by doing ariya metta bhavna?
June 12, 2022 at 6:26 am #38014
As I have explained before, one needs to be an Anagami to attain the first Ariya jhana.
– That is because kama raga anusaya is not there (i.e., kama raga must be completely removed) to get to the first Ariya jhana.
– Anyone below the Anagami stage would still have kama raga anusaya.
June 12, 2022 at 6:45 am #38017
But in some posts you have mentioned that a “sotapanna with ariya jhana Will also not take birth in the kamaloka” so what does that mean? How will the sotapanna get the ariya jhana without being an anagami?
June 12, 2022 at 7:04 am #38019
I most likely wrote: a “sotapanna with anariya jhana Will also not take birth in the kamaloka”
When you quote me, please link the post and the exact quote. It is a dangerous practice to say, “you wrote this and that” without providing a link to the quote.
June 12, 2022 at 7:52 am #38022
I am really sorry, i mistakenly interpreted the wrong meaning.
Sorry for the error
June 12, 2022 at 8:06 am #38023
No problem :D
June 14, 2022 at 12:27 pm #38058
Do iddhi powers come automatically after attaining jhanas
June 14, 2022 at 1:13 pm #38059
No. It is hard.
– One must get to the fourth jhana and then practice coming out of the physical body first.
– Even that is an initial step. I know some people who can come out of the physical body. But none has iddhi powers.
– However, Devadatta had iddhi powers, lost them, and was born in an apaya. We all had iddhi powers in previous lives, many times over.
June 17, 2022 at 3:53 am #38101
Yes this was the post “A Sotapanna who gets to the first Ariya jhana has removed kama raga, but may not have had the Anagami phala moment. But he/she will not come back to the kama loka (will get the phala moment in the brahma loka and attain Nibbana there). So, he/she is still an Anagami (“na” + “agami” or not coming back). This is what is stated in the last bullet in “Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna“.” In the Let’s Talk About Anagami topic of the forums.
June 17, 2022 at 5:50 am #38106
Yes. It was a mistake and I just fixed it. It is in my first response to Johnny Lim’s question: “Let’s Talk About Anagami”
If you find any such issues, please make a comment with the link to the post/comment in question. Otherwise, I cannot verify or make necessary corrections.
– Thanks again for taking the time to locate the post.
June 17, 2022 at 6:09 am #38107
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