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OK. It was bugging me, so I dropped everything and reviewed the description in the “Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga”
I think I discussed this briefly with you and Seng Kiat back in 2020 via email when the two of you asked for clarification (separately). As I explained then, the “Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga” in the above link provides a detailed explanation. The “standard PS” is analyzed via 16 cycles. I have not written a post on it, since it is very complex.
1. It describes in detail the 16 steps for an akusala mula PS. The description starts in section 2. Abhidhammabhājanīya.
– It is not easy to follow those 16 cycles. There are 4 cycles each for 2.1. Paccayacatukka, 2.2. Hetucatukka, 2.3. Sampayuttacatukka, 2.4. Aññamaññacatukka.
– That means for four types of paccaya: paccaya, hetu, sampayutta, Aññamañña.2. Then there are four cycles (catukka) within each of those. That is how it becomes 16 cycles!
– That analysis takes up most of the rest of the section.
– So, it provides that VERY DETAILED analysis ONLY for the akusala-mula PS.3. The point is that for Kusala-mula PS, it describes only the first of the 16 cycles!
– That is why it has only “nama”: “..viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṁ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ.”
– The other steps ending with:..viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpaṁ, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatanaṁ” are NOT explained again, because they proceed similarly to the case of Akusala-mula PS.I also found the emails that I exchanged with you and Seng Kiat.
– My email to Seng Kiat with the explanation was on Aug. 25, 2020.
– You asked about it later on. I replied to you on Dec. 29, 2020.For All: As the Buddha admonished Ven. Ananda, PS is VERY deep. One can go to extreme details. However, it is not necessary to go to such depths to understand the basic porcess.
Yes. You seem to have a point there.
I will take a good look at it after finalizing the new post. Thanks, Tobias!
Tobias asked: Can it be that this preparation of food is just punna kamma and the kusala thoughts with understanding are in the background and operate the kusala mula PS? Otherwise, why is it not mentioned in Vb 6 as namarupa?”
Appropriate namarupa arise (with an understanding of Tilakkhana at that level) in the Kusala-mula PS. The steps in the post “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” are from the Vibhanga; see #5 in the post.
– I don’t understand why you say that “why is it not mentioned in Vb 6 as namarupa?”
– It is possible that you may be looking at a detailed analysis where only the “nama” is in play with the “Chattayatana”, not “namarupa” with “salayatana.”All kammas are mind-made. A kusala kamma REMOVES raga, dosa, moha from a mind and an akusala kamma adds.
Tobias wrote: “then you should modify the post on kusala mula PS because there you describe it as if the kusala mula PS is responsible for upatti and pavutti bhava.”
– I don’t think there is anything to be revised. If you see a particular bullet # giving that idea please quote that.
– Kusala-mula PS does not create NEW bhava. There is no “upadana paccaya bhava bhava” in the Kusala-mula PS. Please read that post again.Tobias asked: “Do you say that new kamma bhava is accumulated while doing kusala kamma?”
No. The Kusala-mula PS does not accumulate kamma bhava.
– But it ELEVATES one to higher bhava, by eliminating the ability to be “hooked into” lower bhava, as you wrote in the later (last) comment.Tobias wrote: “I agree. But those energies are namarupa and that is not mentioned in the kusala mula PS (just “nama”).”
– There are “namarupa” arising in the Kusala-mula PS. Those are “good namarupa” corresponding to good planned deeds. For example, while preparing to make an offer of food to bhikkhus, one could be visualizing the preparation of such food or the actual offering itself.Tobias wrote: “This explanation is better: We do kusala kamma via kusala mula PS and that reduces the ability (the “hook”) to operate the akusala mula PS. When the hook is totally removed every kamma bhava is a dud.”
– Yes. It is.
– Maybe a bit better to say, “..every kamma bhava is EFFECTIVELY a dud.”Kamma bhava IS “vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho”
In effect, kamma bhava is in viññāṇa dhatu.
– Viññāṇa dhatu has namagotta PLUS kammic energies, i.e., those energies below the suddhatthaka stage.Even a living Arahant has kamma bhava, i.e., there are kammic energies in the viññāṇa dhatu. But they do not become “uppatti bhava” at the dying moment, because there is no upadana.
– Of course, an Arahant would not ADD anymore to the kamma bhava either.In the step, “adhimokkha paccayā bhavo” in kusala-mula PS, one gets to the corresponding bhava.
– A Sotapanna, for example, will be born in an appropriate bhava and jati (not below the human bhava).
– A Sotapanna will grasp the appropriate bhava and jati at the cuti-patisandhi moment. But that happens via the akusala-mula PS.Tobias,
You are looking at the final step of Arahanthood.
To get there, one has to proceed step-by-step.
– For example, a Sotapanna is still bound to this world. He has salayatana, bhava, jati.
– But his salayatana, bhava, and jati will not “go below” those corresponding to the human bhava.With each higher level of magga phala, more bonds are broken.
– But until reaching the Arahanthood, some bonds remain and the corresponding salayatana, bhava, jati, etc will remain.I have often explained that I don’t like to discuss jhanic experiences.
– Since I have not attained the Angami stage yet, I do not have Ariya jhana.My advice is to focus on getting to the Sotapanna stage and not jhana.
– Some people get to anariya jhana on the way to the Sotapanna stage automatically, and some don’t.
– Many people can get to anariya jhanas without understanding Buddha Dhamma. Gotama Buddha (before attaining the Buddhahood) learned how to get into anariya jhanas from two yogis who had the highest jhanas. Those two yogis did not know anything about Buddha Dhamma.We all have attained the highest jhana in many previous lives. Even those in the animal realm or the apayas have attained those highest jhanas in previous lives, too.
– I don’t understand this obsession with jhanas. No matter how much I explain, these questions keep coming up.
– That is not to say that even anariya jhanas are bad. If you can get into jhanas, that is good. But don’t be misled and get stuck in “jhanic pleasures.” I personally know people who are “stuck.” The goal should be to get to the Sotapanna stage.
– Jhanas don’t get one to be free of the apayas; the Sotapanna stage does.I am not familiar with the author, Eisel Mazard, that you are quoting. There are many confusing articles written by people who just get the meanings of Pali words from dictionaries (written by those who have no real understanding of Buddha Dhamma.)
His following statement is wrong: “The Pali word is gandhabba, and this is a sort of “heavenly musician” that could be described as the masculine counterpart to a nymph: a sensuous and somewhat insouciant sort of sprite, often depicted as part of the entourage of the more powerful gods.”
– In addition to the “human gandhabba,” there is also a category of “gandhabba Devas.” Another sutta mentions a “gandhabba Deva,” who is a musician. That has given rise to this notion of gandhabba as a “heavenly musician.” I hope you can see the confusion! This is just one example of confusion created by bad translations.Many suttas refer to human gandhabba. That author is just not aware of them. See, “75 results for gandhabba”
When a human existence (bhava) is grasped, a manomaya kaya (with a hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa) is created by kammic energy.
– Then, that manomaya kaya waits for a suitable womb.
– During that “waiting period,” that manomaya kaya can “absorb” scents from flowers, etc., as food and become a bit “denser.” Thus the name gandhabba (“gandha” + “abba” where “gandha” means “aroma/odor” and “abba” means “to take in”) See #2 of “Hidden World of the Gandhabba: Netherworld (Paralōka)“Yes. As you wrote, “So, the initial sensory processing is automatic, but somehow at the khandā level a “person” is conjured up.”
1. What takes place in the mind is a PROCESS.
-The hadaya vatthu only gets very short “snapshots” of any sensory experiences.
– For example, while watching a movie, bits of sound and visual inputs come in at a very fast rate. The mind can connect the appropriate bits of sound and visuals and put together a coherent sound and a visual.
– I have tried to explain this in several posts using the “movie analogy.” See, for example the following two posts in the current series: “Vision Is a Series of “Snapshots” – Movie Analogy” and “Aggregate of Forms – Collection of “Mental Impressions” of Forms”
– It may be a good idea to scan through that subsection, the last post of which I posted today:
“Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime”2. The key point that one grasps when getting rid of sakkaya ditthi is that there is no permanent “soul-type entity.”
– Of course, the perception of a “me” and “I” will be there until the Arahant stage.
– At the Sotapanna stage, one only SEES (OR REALIZES) that there is no “unchanging person.”
– Getting rid of the “sense of me” (asmi māna) happens only at the Arahant stage.3. Lang wrote: “I recall that in another post you wrote that the Buddha said that viññāṇa is like a magician. Is this an example of that? That viññāṇa produces the notion of a “person” out of an automatic process.”
– That is correct.4. Lang wrote: “Is this also related to atta/anatta? The notion of a “person” implies that somebody is in control or in charge (atta) when the true nature of sensory processing is such that nobody is “in charge” (anatta)?”
– They are related, but anatta (in anicca, dukka, anatta) means “unfruitful nature.” See, “Anatta is a Characteristic of the World, not About a ‘Self’”
– Atta and anatta have several different meanings and need to be understood in the context where the words are used. Also attā is different from “atta.” For example, in “Attā Hi Attanō Nāthō” “attā” (with a long “ā”) indicates a :person” in the mundane sense.Yes. It all makes sense, Dipo.
I and others here at the forum have had similar experiences.
As Lang once commented, the “nirāmisa sukha” is obvious.
– Any “āmisa sukha” due to sensory experiences from the five physical senses is there only during the experience. For example, you taste the food only while eating.
– But the “nirāmisa sukha” is a state of mind.Your analogy is an excellent one, Lang!
1. Yes. Only when the gandhabba is inside the physical body, do we need the brain to extract memories.
2. When the gandhabba is outside (like in NDE), the gandhabba can directly tap into the viññāṇa dhātu and access memories. Even though such memories are still likely to be limited, they would be much more than the memories tapped while inside the physical body.
3. Furthermore, since seeing and hearing do not require eyes, ears, and the brain, a gandhabba outside the physical body can see and hear over long distances. Of course, they can go through the walls too.
– Many people with NDEs have reported different combinations of the above experiences.
– A friend of mine had cultivated anariya jhanas and could get out of the physical body. One example is that she once “went” to the temple (with the gandhabba body.) There is some kind of a signpost at the entrance, and she read something on it written in small letters. She had never read that previously. But she has now understood the futility of such things based on anariya jhana and would not “get out of the body” anymore. But she says she never went through walls or didn’t even try.The physicist/Engineer with NDE experience that Lang referred to above talks about his experiences in the following youtube video. I just found it now and watched only a part of it:
Science and Postmortem Survival with Alan Ross Hugenot
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I agree since you say the list is not in a particular order.
A preferable order is:
Kamma
Rebirth
Dukkha sacca
Anicca
Dukkha } Tilakkhana
AnattaThe first two fall within getting rid of the ten types of wrong views (miccha ditthi).
It would be impossible to see the world’s anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature until one gets rid of the wrong views about the world: No results of kamma (done with lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha,) no rebirth process, no spontaneous births, etc.
Hello Dipo,
You don’t need to direct the questions to me. It is better to just post the question because others may want to comment too. I could be looking at it from one angle, and others could be looking at it from different angles.
Yes. It is an important question.
1. Giving (Dāna) is primarily of two types. One can give away material things (food, shelter, etc.), which is āmisa dāna. The other is to teach Buddha Dhamma which is Dhamma dāna.
2. Giving material things is good and MUST be done at all possible times. It sets the background to be able to understand Dhamma and reach Nibbana. We know that dāna pāramitā is a key pāramitā helping set up the background to direct one to Nibbana.
– We see many people who are not even interested in looking into Buddha Dhamma. They simply don’t have that necessary mindset.
– So, one should always give, especially when coming across people/animals who need food, shelter, or help in any other way.3. However, none of that comes even close to Dhamma dāna. We can understand that the following way.
– Any amount of āmisa dāna will lead to temporary relief that can affect only the current life of the receiver.
– However, think about what would be the result of helping someone to attain the Sotapanna stage. That person will be free of numerous rebirths in the apayas. The Buddha clearly stated that over 99% of those who pass away from the human realm are born in an apaya.
– Thus, if even one person can be directed toward the Sotapanna stage, that is equivalent to saving the suffering through millions/billions of lives.
– When I started this website, I thought my efforts would not go to waste if just one person could be directed toward the Sotapanna stage. I am quite sure that more than one person has benefitted from the website. Yet, I always make sure to give to charity a certain amount every year because āmisa dāna is also important.“Dāna Sutta (Iti 98)” state the key points I discussed above. English translation there is good.
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Another angle in “matching a suitable womb” for a gandhabba is “paying back debt.”
I mentioned that briefly in the post: “Kamma, Debt, and Meditation”
As stated in #4 there: “Many relationships that we have in this life arise from “long-term debt” from many lives in the past. For example, people are born in the same family, same community, or same geographical locations, for many, many lives. That is for just paying back debts and for claiming old debts.”
