kusala mula PS leads not to rebirth

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    • #37641
      Tobias G
      Participant

      For reference please see Kukkuravatika Sutta (Majjhima Nikāya 57) – Kammakkhaya and Vb 6.

      As explained in MN 57 kusala kamma is kammaṃ akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ, or action that is neither dark nor bright with the neither-dark-nor-bright result, action that leads to the destruction of defilements. Vb 6 shows that, too:

      Tattha katamo adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo? Ṭhapetvā adhimokkhaṁ, vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho.

      In kusala mula PS bhavo is not kamma bhavo or uppatti bhavo but just the nama khandhas. The kusala is just registered in the mind which leads to destruction of asavas (kammakkhayāya).

      Also in all the kusala mula PS in Vb 6 vinnana leads not to namarupa but only to nama, where only manayatana is involved: viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ

      In contrast to the kusala mula PS the akusala mula PS always develops kammabhavo or upatti bhavo. All rebirth works only via akusala mula PS. As long as there are defilements left a new bhava can be grasped.

      Lal, I think you need to revise the post on kusala mula PS. It gives the impression that kusala kamma leads to rebirth.

    • #37642
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias,

      You are looking at the final step of Arahanthood.

      To get there, one has to proceed step-by-step.
      – For example, a Sotapanna is still bound to this world. He has salayatana, bhava, jati.
      – But his salayatana, bhava, and jati will not “go below” those corresponding to the human bhava.

      With each higher level of magga phala, more bonds are broken.
      – But until reaching the Arahanthood, some bonds remain and the corresponding salayatana, bhava, jati, etc will remain.

    • #37643
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Even for kāmāvacarakusala it is stated as:
      Tattha katamo adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo? Ṭhapetvā adhimokkhaṁ, vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho—ayaṁ vuccati “adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo”

      Same as lokuttara kusala: no kammabhava, just registry in mind.
      All punna kamma operate the akusala mula PS and generate rebirth. When removing defilements the kusala mula PS operates (starting from sotapanna anugami?). Can it be that lokuttara kusala means that path factors are fulfilled and magga phala is reached? There it is mentioned:

      Tattha katamo alobho …pe… adoso …pe… amoho? Yā paññā pajānanā …pe… amoho dhammavicayo sammādiṭṭhi dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgo maggaṅgaṁ maggapariyāpannaṁ

    • #37645
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Kamma bhava IS “vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho”

      In effect, kamma bhava is in viññāṇa dhatu.
      – Viññāṇa dhatu has namagotta PLUS kammic energies, i.e., those energies below the suddhatthaka stage.

      Even a living Arahant has kamma bhava, i.e., there are kammic energies in the viññāṇa dhatu. But they do not become “uppatti bhava” at the dying moment, because there is no upadana.
      – Of course, an Arahant would not ADD anymore to the kamma bhava either.

      In the step, “adhimokkha paccayā bhavo” in kusala-mula PS, one gets to the corresponding bhava.
      – A Sotapanna, for example, will be born in an appropriate bhava and jati (not below the human bhava).
      – A Sotapanna will grasp the appropriate bhava and jati at the cuti-patisandhi moment. But that happens via the akusala-mula PS.

    • #37646
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Agreed, even for the Sotapanna the akusala mula PS will operate at cuti moment.

      Do you say that new kamma bhava is accumulated while doing kusala kamma? And this (kusala) kamma bhava is grasped via akusala mula PS at the cuti moment?

      We should remind us that kusala kamma is neither dark nor bright with neither-dark-nor-bright results, it is kamma that leads to the destruction of defilements. Thus kusala kamma will not add to kamma bhava. That is the reason it is not mentioned in kusala mula PS.

    • #37649
      Tobias G
      Participant

      You said: ” … – Viññāṇa dhatu has namagotta PLUS kammic energies, i.e., those energies below the suddhatthaka stage.”

      I agree. But those energies are namarupa and that is not mentioned in the kusala mula PS (just “nama”).

    • #37652
      Tobias G
      Participant

      This explanation is better: We do kusala kamma via kusala mula PS and that reduces the ability (the “hook”) to operate the akusala mula PS. When the hook is totally removed every kamma bhava is a dud.

    • #37655
      Tobias G
      Participant

      There is more in the last step of kusala mula PS which adds more argument to my position.

      The last step in 2.10.1.1. Mahākusalacitta says: “… bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti

      But we know that jati of a Sotapanna (Anugami) is filled with more dukkha than just “jaramaranam“. Thus this is not the physical birth or the new bhava in the human realm. This can be just the registry in namaloka.

    • #37657
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias asked: “Do you say that new kamma bhava is accumulated while doing kusala kamma?”

      No. The Kusala-mula PS does not accumulate kamma bhava.
      – But it ELEVATES one to higher bhava, by eliminating the ability to be “hooked into” lower bhava, as you wrote in the later (last) comment.

      Tobias wrote: “I agree. But those energies are namarupa and that is not mentioned in the kusala mula PS (just “nama”).”
      – There are “namarupa” arising in the Kusala-mula PS. Those are “good namarupa” corresponding to good planned deeds. For example, while preparing to make an offer of food to bhikkhus, one could be visualizing the preparation of such food or the actual offering itself.

      Tobias wrote: “This explanation is better: We do kusala kamma via kusala mula PS and that reduces the ability (the “hook”) to operate the akusala mula PS. When the hook is totally removed every kamma bhava is a dud.”
      – Yes. It is.
      – Maybe a bit better to say, “..every kamma bhava is EFFECTIVELY a dud.”

    • #37660
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Ok, now I understand where you see the “namarupa” in kusala kamma. Can it be that this preparation of food is just punna kamma and the kusala thoughts with understanding are in the background and operate the kusala mula PS? Otherwise why is it not mentioned in Vb 6 as namarupa? It seems kusala kamma is only mind made.

    • #37661
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Lal, if you agree that “The Kusala-mula PS does not accumulate kamma bhava.
      – But it ELEVATES one to higher bhava, by eliminating the ability to be “hooked into” lower bhava

      then you should modify the post on kusala mula PS because there you describe it as if the kusala mula PS is responsible for upatti and pavutti bhava. You could add an explanation of the “hook” and the ability to operate the akusala mula PS which gets reduced with kusala kamma. Otherwise the people will think the kusala mula PS itself will bring new bhava.

    • #37662
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias asked: Can it be that this preparation of food is just punna kamma and the kusala thoughts with understanding are in the background and operate the kusala mula PS? Otherwise, why is it not mentioned in Vb 6 as namarupa?”

      Appropriate namarupa arise (with an understanding of Tilakkhana at that level) in the Kusala-mula PS. The steps in the post “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” are from the Vibhanga; see #5 in the post.
      – I don’t understand why you say that “why is it not mentioned in Vb 6 as namarupa?”
      – It is possible that you may be looking at a detailed analysis where only the “nama” is in play with the “Chattayatana”, not “namarupa” with “salayatana.”

      All kammas are mind-made. A kusala kamma REMOVES raga, dosa, moha from a mind and an akusala kamma adds.

      Tobias wrote: “then you should modify the post on kusala mula PS because there you describe it as if the kusala mula PS is responsible for upatti and pavutti bhava.”
      – I don’t think there is anything to be revised. If you see a particular bullet # giving that idea please quote that.
      – Kusala-mula PS does not create NEW bhava. There is no “upadana paccaya bhava bhava” in the Kusala-mula PS. Please read that post again.

    • #37663
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Ok, which point in Vb 6 shows that kusala mula PS with namarupa? I don’t find it in the Pali-version. It should be in No 2 Kusalaniddesa

    • #37665
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. You seem to have a point there.

      I will take a good look at it after finalizing the new post. Thanks, Tobias!

    • #37674
      Lal
      Keymaster

      OK. It was bugging me, so I dropped everything and reviewed the description in the “Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga

      I think I discussed this briefly with you and Seng Kiat back in 2020 via email when the two of you asked for clarification (separately). As I explained then, the “Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga” in the above link provides a detailed explanation. The “standard PS” is analyzed via 16 cycles. I have not written a post on it, since it is very complex.

      1. It describes in detail the 16 steps for an akusala mula PS. The description starts in section 2. Abhidhammabhājanīya.
      – It is not easy to follow those 16 cycles. There are 4 cycles each for 2.1. Paccayacatukka, 2.2. Hetucatukka, 2.3. Sampayuttacatukka, 2.4. Aññamaññacatukka.
      – That means for four types of paccaya: paccaya, hetu, sampayutta, Aññamañña.

      2. Then there are four cycles (catukka) within each of those. That is how it becomes 16 cycles!
      – That analysis takes up most of the rest of the section.
      So, it provides that VERY DETAILED analysis ONLY for the akusala-mula PS.

      3. The point is that for Kusala-mula PS, it describes only the first of the 16 cycles!
      – That is why it has only “nama”: “..viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṁ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ.”
      – The other steps ending with:..viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpaṁ, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatanaṁ” are NOT explained again, because they proceed similarly to the case of Akusala-mula PS.

      I also found the emails that I exchanged with you and Seng Kiat.
      – My email to Seng Kiat with the explanation was on Aug. 25, 2020.
      – You asked about it later on. I replied to you on Dec. 29, 2020.

      For All: As the Buddha admonished Ven. Ananda, PS is VERY deep. One can go to extreme details. However, it is not necessary to go to such depths to understand the basic porcess.

    • #37676
      Tobias G
      Participant

      OK, now I understand the kusala mula PS is not completely displayed.

      What we don’t know: how is bhava defined in the last cycle with namarupa involved? It should not be kammabhava/upapattibhava, because the kamma is akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ (neither dark nor bright).

      Is there a complete kusala mula PS in the literature, in a commentary in the Tipitaka?

    • #37687
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias asked: “What we don’t know: how is bhava defined in the last cycle with namarupa involved? It should not be kammabhava/upapattibhava, because the kamma is akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ (neither dark nor bright).”

      It is correct that kamma in the kusala-mula PS is “is akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ (neither dark nor bright)”
      – It does not create “kamma bhava” that can bring future vipaka. Such “kamma bhava” are created by “upadana paccaya bhava”.
      – In the Kusala-mula PS, it is “adhimokkha paccayā bhavo” That does not create kamma bhava or uppatti bhava.
      – That is what I was trying to explain (in different words) in my earlier comments. Please read those again. With Kusala-mula PS, one makes progress in the “Ariya bhava.”

      Tobias asked: “Is there a complete kusala mula PS in the literature, in a commentary in the Tipitaka?”
      – Not in detail like for the Akusala-mula PS. But we can deduce it. That is why it is not explained.
      P.S. I don’t think anyone in recent years has explained it until Waharaka Thero. That is why there is no English translation of it at Sutta Central They don’t even understand the 16-cycle analysis. In fact, I don’t think I have seen the Kusala-mula PS in any English text (even in the short form).

    • #37713
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I have revised the post “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” to explain the difference between adhimokkha and upadana.
      – It is important to understand that difference, and it was not quite clear.
      – Thanks to Tobias for bringing it into focus.

      I have added #16 to that post: (It is a good idea to read the post referred to in #16)

      16. In the Akusala-mula PS that feeds the rebirth process, the critical step of “upādāna paccayā bhavō” leads to the creation of the kamma bhava (energy to feed future rebirths.) 

      – That upādāna forces the mind to act with avijjā repeatedly and to strengthen that kamma bhava.  That is explained in detail in “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna.”
      – In contrast, in the Kusala-mula PS, that step is replaced by “adhimokkha paccayā bhavō.” That bhava is an Ariya bhava (existence as a Noble Person) that makes any existing kamma bhava (created via Akusala-mula PS processes) ineffective.

    • #37714
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Thanks Lal!
      But still I must say that the text gives the impression the kusala mula PS leads to rebirth (as Ariya). But it does not tell us that the kusala mula PS has no kammic consequences and just reduces the ability to operate the akusala mula PS. It should be said that ALL rebirth happens via the akusala mula PS.

      For example you say in #13:
      “..The resulting existence (or “bhava“) matches that state of mind: “paṭi+ichcha sama uppāda“; one “lives” that experience.
      If it is a rebirth at patisandhi, an appropriate “bhava” is selected according to the kamma nimitta.”

      This new bhava mentioned above is selected via akusala mula PS, but not via kusala mula PS. The kusala mula PS just reduces the options to select a bad bhava.

    • #37717
      Lal
      Keymaster

      OK. I have revised #13 in “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” as follows. Don’t hesitate to point out further possible revisions. I don’t read the whole post when I revise one.

      13. With adhimokkha as a condition, (Ariya) bhava arises. Note that an Ariya bhava arises via ELIMINATING a uppatti bhava. For example, one is “born” an Anāgāmi by eliminating the possibility of rebirths in the 11 realms of kāma loka.

      – The resulting existence (or “bhava”) matches that state of mind: “paṭi+ichcha sama uppāda”; one “lives” that experience. In the above example, an Anāgāmi does not have the mindset to be reborn in kāma loka.
      – If it is a rebirth at paṭisandhi, an appropriate “bhava” is selected according to the kamma nimitta. Here any “apāyagāmi” kamma seeds acquired in the distant past do not get a chance to come to the forefront, and thus a rebirth in the lower four realms is prevented.
      – Of course, at an Arahant’s death, the kusala-mula PS process stops (forever) without grasping a new bhava. 

    • #37725
      Tobias G
      Participant

      In #13 you say:
      “…With adhimokkha as a condition, (Ariya) bhava arises. Note that an Ariya bhava arises via ELIMINATING a uppatti bhava. For example, one is “born” an Anāgāmi by eliminating the possibility of rebirths in the 11 realms of kāma loka.”

      This means kusala kamma really removes kamma seeds, which is wrong! Uppatti bhava is like kammabhava a “stored abhisankhara” or a kamma energy. But kusala kamma cannot eliminate such energies. As you said Angulimala still had enough kamma seeds “on store” when he became an Arahant. So the sentence in #13 is confusing.

      Can you write that kusala mula PS has no kammic consequences and just reduces the ability to operate the akusala mula PS? Thus “(Ariya)bhava” in kusala mula PS means just the “registration of nana/panna in the mind/namaloka” (sanna-, vedana-, sankhara-, vinnanakhandha). With that “knowledge” the mind will not grasp any bad bhava at cuti moment and increasingly no other bhava at all.

    • #37726
      Tobias G
      Participant

      What we discussed already here, the definition of “bhava” is missing for the final kusala mula PS. In the first cycles it is:

      Tattha katamo adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo?
      Ṭhapetvā adhimokkhaṁ, vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho

      That means vinnana dathu or “registration in mind”, right?

    • #37727
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias’ first comment:
      There is a big difference between kammma bhava and uppatti bhava.
      – Kamma bhava means kammic energies that have been accumulated over past lives. They DO NOT disappear even when one attains Arahanthod. However, energies in the kamma bhava fade away with time for everyone, just like any type of energy fades away.
      – When a “specific portion” of kamma bhava is grasped at the cuti-patisandhi moment, it becomes uppatti bhava.
      – An Arahant has kamma bhava, but no uppatti bhava since there is no upadana to grasp a kamma bhava.

      Tobias’ second comment:
      We need to be careful with “adhimokkha paccayā bhavo
      – As we discussed, it comes in Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada.
      – But the same word is sometimes used in Akusala-mula PS based on patigha. In that PS, it can be stated as “tanha paccaya upadana, upadana paccaya bhava” OR “patigha paccaya adhimokkho, adhimokkha paccaya bhava.”
      – When someone becomes angry, it peaks quickly, and that is what is meant by “adhimokkha” there.
      – It is better to stick to the above explanation in response to the first comment. It is simpler and less complicated.

    • #37731
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I may not have discussed the difference between kamma bhava and uppatti bhava. It could have been mentioned in some posts, but I wanted to make sure.

      So, I have added #13 to the post, “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein

      13. All kammic energies accumulate in the kamma bhava. Just like any other energy, it will fade away with time, even though that will take billions of years. But, of course, new kammic energies are being accrued as old energies fade.

      – It is at the cuti-paṭisandhi moment (grasping a new bhava) that part of the kammic energy in kamma bhava becomes “uppatti bhava” leading to the new existence.
      – As a Noble Person moves up in magga phala, less kamma bhava (i.e., accumulated kammic energy) will be able to contribute to uppatti bhava. At the Arahant stage, there will be no uppatti bhava, since an Arahant will not have any more uppatti. Even though the kamma bhava for that Arahant will be still there, it will not become a uppatti bhava.

    • #37740
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I forgot to point out another thing related to Tobias’ last comment above.

      He quoted from the Vibhanga:
      Tattha katamo adhimokkha paccayā bhavo?
      Ṭhapetvā adhimokkhaṁ, vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho

      Bhava is ALWAYS defined that way, as the four “nama aggregates.” That is the same as “viññāṇa dhātu” where namagotta and kamma bija exist.
      – For example, also from the Vibhanga;
      Tattha katamo upādāna paccayā bhavo? Ṭhapetvā upādānaṁ, vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho”.

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