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This is a good issue to discuss since it can give some insights. Thanks for bringing it up.
– I am going to put it in the point form. If anyone has questions, please refer to specific bullet numbers.1. Abhidhamma starts at a basic fundamental level. Rupā are categorized into 28 types, cittā into 81 (121) types, etc. Such a detailed analysis provides a solid foundation for Buddha Dhamma.
– However, Abhidhamma cannot “break down” subtle concepts like anicca or the Noble Truths to that level directly; see #4 below.2. An analogy is as follows. Physics (in particular elementary particle physics) provides the backbone for science in general.
– However, physics CAN NOT explain how living cells arise. Biology starts not with physics, but with the ASSUMPTION that living cells exist. They don’t know how living cells came into existence. Even though living cells are made of atoms and physics understands atoms, there is a gap from there to a living cell that has not been explained.
– I discussed that in the “Origin of Life” section.3. However, Buddha Dhamma can explain how living cells arise. They come into existence via the laws of kamma, dictated by Paticca Samuppada (as I explained in that section on “Origin of Life.”)
4. In the same way, Tilakkhana and Four Noble Truths cannot simply be analyzed in terms of 81 (121) citta, 52 cetasika, and 28 types of rupa.
– However, it is again Paticca Samuppada that is the bridge between those fundamental entities and deep concepts of Tilakkhana and Four Noble Truths.5. Paticca Samuppada is explained in the Sutta Pitaka: SN 12.1 through to the end.
– Paticca Samuppada is explained in DETAIL in the “Vibhaṅgapakarana” (of the Abhidhamma Pitaka) in the “Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga” section.It is good to look for “deeper explanations.” So, I am not trying to discourage such questions as the one from Jorg.
– But in some cases, there are no such explanations, like the one I mentioned above for 17 cittas in a citta vithi.
– Of course, I could be wrong in this particular case. If there is such an explanation, I would like to know too. If I come across one, I will post it.OK. I found it. It is a series of suttas. You can get the translations of those terms in the English translation below.
LayDhammaFollower asked above (in response to a comment by C.Saket):
In the Asaṅkhata Saṁyutta (SN 43) Lord Buddha uses various synonyms for Nibbana:
anāsavaṁ…saccaṁ…pāraṁ…nipuṇaṁ…sududdasaṁ…ajajjaraṁ…dhuvaṁ…apalokitaṁ…anidassanaṁ…nippapañcaṁ…santaṁ…amataṁ…paṇītaṁ…sivaṁ…khemaṁ…taṇhākkhayaṁ…acchariyaṁ…abbhutaṁ
…anītikaṁ…anītikadhammaṁ…nibbānaṁ…abyābajjhaṁ…virāgo…suddhi…mutti…anālayo…dīpaṁ…leṇaṁ…tāṇaṁ…saraṇaṁ…Can we have translation of this words if possible, that would be much helpful.
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1. I think I mentioned this before too. Please don’t just REPLY to an old comment. Then your comment ends up “hidden” among old comments. Just make your comment at the end of the thread. If needed you can refer to an old comment, give the name of the commenter and quote a paragraph from there.
2. Can C. Saket provide a link to the specific sutta with that quote or at least provide the name of the sutta? Please always try to do that. Otherwise, others have to waste time looking for specific references.
What I am saying is that we cannot just focus on the rupakkhandha.
– Attachment to rupa cannot be dissociated from those mental aspects arising from the contacts among external and internal rupa.That is why it is “panca upadana khandha” that is dukkha, not just “rupa upadana khandha.”
Hello Anshu64,
1. I do not know of such an “elemental analysis” of anicca (or dukkha, anatta, or the Four Noble Truths) in Abhidhamma. Do you know? If so, please give references in the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
2. If you cannot provide such references, do you know why such analyses are not there in the Abhidhamma Pitaka?
Lang’s comments:
1. Asanna realm: Yes. The asanna satta has hadaya vatthu and pasada rupā (i.e., manomaya kaya). But it is inside a “physical body” that has no eyes, ears,.. or brain. That means the manomaya kaya is unable to contact the outside world. Thus, no citta can arise.
2. When an Arahant is in sannavedayita nirodha samapatti, the physical body is maintained by rupa jīvitindriya (kammic energy) but no sensory contacts are made. There it is the mind that “shuts off” external arammana.
– To get there an Arahant must systematically go to the fourth jhana, arupavacara samapatti, and then to sannavedayita nirodha samapatti.3. Rest of the first comment is correct.
4. I am not sure what you mean in the second comment.
– Of course, Nibbana is NOT Samsara.
– Samsara is the rebirth process. To get to Nibbana one must attain Arahanthood. At the death of the physical body the Arahant (Parinibbana), Sansaric process ends, and Nibbana is complete.
– In the language of mathematics, Nibbana and Samsara (living in this world) are mutually exclusive. After the Parinibbana, an Arahant is totally disengaged from this world, i.e., no longer in Samsara or the rebirth process.Your thought process is good.
But can look at it the following way too.
1. Rupa play a dominant role. For any mental entities to arise, an internal rupa must come to contact with an external rupa.
– There are six internal rupa and six external. Note that dhammā are rupa too: “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!”2. Thoughts with “viparita (distorted) sanna” (sanna vipallasa) and “samphassa-ja-vedana” arise COULD arise due to such contacts.
– Then based on those “mind-made” sanna and vedana, vinnana (future expectations) arise and we engage in abhisankhara that lead to future rebirths and other types of vipaka.3. When we recall past events, we recall not only the associated rupa, but also associated four types of mental entities: vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.
4. Therefore, attachment involves all five aggregates. Thus, panca upadana khandha (pancupadanakkhandha).
Yes. That is a good description. There are many ways to express it.
1. Everything in this world is a sankhata, with a FINITE lifetime. That lifetime may have both sukha and dukkha.
– Living beings spend most of their Samsaric journey in realms filled with much more suffering.
– Rebirth in realms with more sukha is rare. Furthermore, it does not last.2. Rebirth in the 31 realms occurs according to Paticca Samuppada. It WILL NOT stop until the root causes (lobha, dosa, moha) are not there.
– Nibbana is realized (i.e., rebirth stops) with the removal of all root causes.
– The way to remove the root causes is the Noble Eightfold Path, starting with Samma Ditthi.
– Samma Ditthi is to “see” the truth of the above description. That is the beginning of the Path.The following post is from C. Saket:
Asanna state is like a coma, unconscious, lifeless, no citta…
An Asanna Brahma has all the asavas remaining, hidden. Whereas Nibbana is attained by permanently removing all the defilements, asavas.
However technically speaking, in both cases of “Asanna” state and “Nirodha Samapatti”, sanna and vedana are absent.
But that is the only similarity between the two.
There is a huge difference between an Asanna Brahma and the state of Arahant after death (Parinibbana).
Parnibbana is nothing like Asanna. It cannot be described by using rupa, citta and cetasikas at all !!! It is beyond this world!!!
To illustrate this error of regarding Nibbana as sheer nothingness, some Buddhist monks relate the story of the turtle and the fish. There was once a turtle who lived in a lake with a group of fish. One day
the turtle went for a walk on dry land. He was away from the lake for a few weeks. When he returned he met some of the fish. The fish asked him, “Mister turtle, hello! How are you? We have not seen you
for a few weeks. Where have you been? The turtle said, “I was up on the land, I have been spending some time on dry land.” The fish were a little puzzled and they said, “Up on dry land? What are you
talking about? What is this dry land? Is it wet?” The turtle said “No, it is not,” “Is it cool and refreshing?” “No, it is not”, “Does it have waves and ripples?” “No, it does not have waves and ripples.” “Can you
swim in it?” “No you can’t” So the fish said, “it is not wet, it is not cool, there are no waves, you can’t swim in it. So this dry land of yours must be completely non-existent, just an imaginary thing, nothing
real at all.” The turtle said that “Well, may be so” and he left the fish and went for another walk on dry land.In the Asaṅkhata Saṁyutta (SN 43) Lord Buddha uses various synonyms for Nibbana:
anāsavaṁ…saccaṁ…pāraṁ…nipuṇaṁ…sududdasaṁ…ajajjaraṁ…dhuvaṁ…apalokitaṁ…anidassanaṁ…nippapañcaṁ…santaṁ…amataṁ…paṇītaṁ…sivaṁ…khemaṁ…taṇhākkhayaṁ…acchariyaṁ…abbhutaṁ
…anītikaṁ…anītikadhammaṁ…nibbānaṁ…abyābajjhaṁ…virāgo…suddhi…mutti…anālayo…dīpaṁ…leṇaṁ…tāṇaṁ…saraṇaṁ…This clearly shows that Nibbana is nothing like Asanna.
Nibbana exists as an UNCONDITIONAL ELEMENT and it is beyond all our experiences of this world of 31 realms.
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Yes. I realized that.
In fact, there are realms where there is not only “no suffering” but there is “optimum sensual pleasures”. That is the highest Deva realm, Paranimmita Vasavattī Deva. See, “31 Realms of Existence.”
– Mara Devaputta (we normally call “Mara”) is in that realm. He is enjoying the highest possible “sensual pleasures.” So, he does not understand why anyone would want to attain Nibbana. He wants everyone to engage in moral deeds and be born in his realm.
– The only problem is that his life, even though long, is not eternal! At some point in the future, he may end up in an apaya.P.S. I see that you have added some descriptions of Nibbana by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
– Another point is there is no “person” attaining Nibbana. That is the wrong view of sakkaya ditthi; see, “Sakkāya Diṭṭhi – Wrong View of “Me” and “Mine””
– When causes are removed, rebirth will stop, and thus no possibility of future suffering.Thank you!
I just revised that post:
Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect SaṅkhāraNibbana is not a “permanent Asanna state”.
– As LayDhammaFolower wrote above, “Nibbanā is the complete absence of suffering after parinibbana.”No asanna satta (or any other living being) is free from future suffering.
– An Arahant is totally free from suffering after Parinibbana.Yes. An Asañña Brahma does not have any citta arising.
The main difference is that Brahma will be reborn when the lifetime in that Brahma realm expires.
– That is because not a single anusaya or a samyojana that binds to the rebirth process has been “broken” in an Asañña Brahma.But an Arahant will not be reborn after the death of the physical body.
