[Lal]

Lucas wrote: “I’m saying that there is an incongruence in the translation of your post, your matching with actual scientific theories, and the law of kamma.”

What is not matching is only the Big Bang theory. My post is consistent with the laws of kamma, but may not be matching with laws of kamma as you interpret.

You wrote: ‘This is important: the tipitaka is not our bible. It’s just a text that has to be taken as such.” and “It’s just a text that has to be taken as such. It has to be tested by personal experience.”
– Tipitaka is not the bible. It is the Tipitaka and it is the Buddha’s word. Think about self-consistency. You are just repeating what many secular Buddhists say. Again, please provide evidence of inconsistencies, rather than making statements.
-The Tipitaka cannot be verified by the experience of those who have not comprehended its core teachings.

You wrote: “In the lineage that I practice (Goenka)”
– That explains a lot.

You wrote: ‘if there is more planets that host lifeforms, more galaxies, more “clusters”, more whatever names we wanna place for a physical realm… why should a being go up with the destruction of his cluster when there are innumerable more places around the universe in which the tendencies can take place? Please answer this.”
– This is a key point. It is not correct to say, “a being go(es) up”
– When the destruction starts, the “mind-pleasing things” start disappearing. So, over time that leads to the cultivation of jhana. This is similar to those who cultivate anariya jhana by willfully staying away from “mind-pleasing things.” I will explain this in detail in the upcoming post. But essentially, living-beings NATURALLY go up the realms as their realms are slowly destroyed.

You wrote: “Furthermore, if beings go up with the destruction of the material realms, the inexistence of this last ones will have to be a requisite. The only possible instance in which this event could happen is in the absolute contraction of the whole Universe when there is no physical realm available anywhere.”

The higher-lying Brahma realms are not destroyed when the solid Earth is destroyed. There is very little “matter” in those realms. All living-beings end up in those realms.
– Please note that the lifetimes of beings in the highest realms are many eons (many Maha kappa).
– However, those living-beings who “migrate up naturally” in the destruction phase, only go up to the Abhassara Brahma realm. Their lifetimes end by the time the Earth is “re-formed.”

You may want to read my post on Agganna Sutta carefully and also the links provided there. Buddha Dhamma is very deep. It is not possible to explain something in a single post or even several posts.

I do not mean to offend you or anyone with some of the statements above. But that is the truth. There is no other way to explain/make sense of things.
– Please remember that Einstein believed the universe to be stable. He tried to “fudge” his equations to force the universe to be static. See the first two paragraphs in, “Cosmological constant”
– If Einstein could not go against the Buddha’s teachings, it is doubtful that anyone else can.

[Lal]

Let me ask a couple of questions, Lucas.

1. Have you read the Agganna Sutta? What I described is not a theory of mine, but the way it is described in that sutta.

2. You wrote: “If we follow this logically and not purely and solely based on a 2300 years text (that we are not 100% sure if is authentic and not modified)..”
– How confident are you about your theory?
– Also, have you found ANYTHING in the Pali Tipitaka to be inconsistent with ITSELF? If you have, please mention a couple of things so we can discuss them.

I have full confidence in the Agganna Sutta and also in the whole of the Tipitaka. Just because the Tipitaka is 2500 years old, does not mean that it has errors. The only way to contest that is to show evidence that it is not self-consistent. See, “Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency.”
– I have so far not been able to find ANYTHING inconsistent with the Tipitaka.
– Furthermore, the description in the Agganna Sutta is consistent with most of the scientific findings except for a few. A major exception is the Big Bang model. It will be proven to be wrong in the future in the same way that many other scientific findings (which were inconsistent with the Tipitaka) were turned out to be incorrect or incomplete.

[Lal]

It seems that I missed the second part of Lucas’s question. That second part is:
“Not only this but even if we consider that the universe does not expand and contract and that the cluster is the only thing that is destroyed, there is still an incongruence in saying that beings will “forcibly” go to the Brahma realms when there are other clusters in the universe in which their kamma can rest and express itself. We know by the literature, and many of us by personal experience, that mind has no spacial limits.

With all my respects, the logic that shows your post is against the law of kamma or the law of cause and effect. If there is any place in the whole universe in which beings have any possibilities to continue with their tendencies they will go there. Only if those places (realms) are not available, only then they will go up and up because of the dissolution of the lower realms.”

It seems to me that Lucas is saying the following:
When a cluster of 10,000 “world-systems” (in terms of modern language 10,000 star systems) get blown up, why do the living-beings in those world-systems not reborn somewhere else in the universe?
– Why do they living-beings in each inhabited planet in those world-systems end up in the higher-lying realms in their original systems?
– For example, when the Earth is destroyed, why not those living beings “stationed” in the Earth-based system not born elsewhere in the universe?

I think I need to write another post instead of addressing that part of the question here. The answer involves many related issues. But let me point out a few key things.
– The destruction is not instantaneous. Furthermore, the “re-formation” process is not instantaneous as is the case with the “Big Bang,” in the sense that not ALL MATTER (or the ingredients for all matter) come into existence in a moment in the “Big Bang.”
– The destruction process happens over billions of years. The migration of living-beings to higher realms happens over such a long time, in NATURAL PROCESS.
– P.S. Long before a 10,000 “world-system” explodes in a supernova, life in associated planets will gradually die out over many millions of years. First, humans and animals will die. The higher-lying Deva realms will survive for a long time. Lower-lying Brahma realms will survive even longer.
– The re-formation of the solid Earth also happens over billions of years.

If there are other related issues, I can try to address those too. But it will take several days, may be even a couple of weeks.

[Lal]

Thank you, Frank (cubibobi)!

I just corrected it.

P.S. I also added a sentence to address the following comment by y not: “I myself had been under the impression that the view of science was that the Sun (for one star) is a second generation star. Now there are some who hold the view that it is a third-generation star; others that it could be a 1000th generation star!!”

Yes. Our Sun is a third-generation star. But there are no 1000th generation stars. It takes a few billion years to “recycle” the matter to re-form a star according to scientists. Since the “Big Bang” happened less than 15 billion years ago, probably less than 10 generations are possible. Of course, these numbers are based on the “Big Bang” model, and not with the Buddha’s.

[Lal]

Lucas: Your quote from the sutta is: “With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion,“

The original Pali version: “So evaṃ samāhite citte parisuddhe pariyodāte anaṅgaṇe vigatūpakkilese mudubhūte kammaniye ṭhite āneñjappatte pubbenivāsānussatiñāṇāya cittaṃ abhinīharati abhininnāmeti. So anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarati, seyyathidaṃ—ekampi jātiṃ dvepi jātiyo tissopi jātiyo catassopi jātiyo pañcapi jātiyo dasapi jātiyo vīsampi jātiyo tiṃsampi jātiyo cattālīsampi jātiyo paññāsampi jātiyo jātisatampi jātisahassampi jātisatasahassampi anekepi saṃvaṭṭakappe anekepi vivaṭṭakappe anekepi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe,”

Bhikkhu Sujato’s translation: “When their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward recollection of past lives. They recollect many kinds of past lives, that is, one, two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand rebirths; many eons of the world contracting, many eons of the world expanding, many eons of the world contracting and expanding..”

The original version and Bhikkhu Sujato’s translation at: “Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)”

Now, let us look at the key Pali words individually:

“Aneka” (in anekepi) means “numerous” or “many”.

A saṃvaṭṭa kappa (in saṃvaṭṭakappe) is the time taken to re-form the Earth. That means to re-form the whole 10,000 world systems.
– “Samvatta” (“san” + “vatta”) indicates the formation. As we know the word “san” means “adding up” or “aggregation.”

A vivaṭṭa kappa (in vivaṭṭakappe) is the time taken to break-up the Earth. That means to break-up the whole 10,000 world systems.
– “Vivatta” (“vi” + “vatta”) indicates “breaking up.”

We need to keep in mind that in that sutta, the focus was on the Earth. But when the Earth is destroyed (via the blowing up of a star,) the whole world system with 10,000 stars is destroyed.
– That is confirmed by modern science, of course, we do not know how many stars are destroyed. A supernova destroys the “whole neighborhood.”

Therefore, that passage in the sutta says that a person who gains the ability to recollect past lives may be able to recollect many past lives depending on the level of iddhi powers developed.
In the Agganna Sutta, the Buddha has described the destruction and “re-formation” of the Earth (together with the 10,000 world systems) over a (kappa.) That is the “kappa” in saṃvaṭṭa kappa or vivaṭṭa kappa in the verse quoted from the Samaññaphala Sutta.

Those who have cultivated to the extreme levels can recall past lives going back to many such kappa.

Therefore, the confusion is with the translation of a “kappa” as the age of the universe in terms of an eon meaning the time since the ‘Big Bang.” In modern science, ALL star systems that CAN BE SEEN TODAY are supposed to have arisen in the Big Bang. All stars mean an UNCOUNTABLE number of stars!
– Let me emphasize. In modern science, ALL stars (or more precisely ALL MATTER for the existing stars) were created in a single “Big Bang.” P.S. I added the statement within brackets per comment below by y not.
– In the Buddha’s version, only a TINE FRACTION of the stars undergo destruction at a given time. That destruction takes a kappa, which is a saṃvaṭṭa kappa. Then, the “re-formation” process also takes a kappa. That is a vivaṭṭa kappa
– Those are two very different models. Problems arise when the terminologies are mixed up.

[Lal]

The following comment is from lucas.combon. Even though his first post above did not have a problem, he could not get the following post published. So, the intermittent problem remains. Please keep a copy of any post, and email me ([email protected]) if it does not appear.

Lal, there are other translations that are not the ones that you show in your site that talk about aeons of Cosmic expansion and contraction

“With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion,“

“Mind Reading”
(https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html#recollection)

Not only this but even if we consider that the universe does not expand and contract and that the cluster is the only thing that is destroyed, there is still an incongruence in saying that beings will “forcibly” go to the Brahma realms when there are other clusters in the universe in which their kamma can rest and express itself. We know by the literature, and many of us by personal experience, that mind has no spacial limits.

With all my respects, the logic that shows your post is against the law of kamma or the law of cause and effect. If there is any place in the whole universe in which beings have any possibilities to continue with their tendencies they will go there. Only if those places (realms) are not available, only then they will go up and up because of the dissolution of the lower realms.

Thank you!

[Lal]

y not wrote: “Stars not massive enough to go supernova, like the Sun, will expand into red giants, engulfing and destroying the nearer planets including Earth (in the case of the Solar system) before shrinking back to white dwarfs. If an inhabited planet lies within that radius, the destruction will happen before the explosion of a supernova in the vicinity. The star’s time ‘is up’ before that of the supernova.”

It is possible that the Sun could be in a “red giant” state for millions of years before another star in the “10,00 world systems’ blows up and destroys the whole system. Furthermore, another star can become a supernova and blow-up the whole system BEFORE the Earth becomes a red giant.
– These are minor details. The “big picture” does not change.

Furthermore, we cannot take everything scientists to say at the moment to be the “ultimate truth”. As I pointed out, their “world view” keeps changing with more data. It has changed drastically over even the past couple of hundred years.

[Lal]

Lucas wrote: “I might be wrong but I think that a mistake was made while explaining the transition of beings from the lower realms to the Brahma realms on the destruction of the planet..I would like to remember that the universe is something like infinite (or very big at least). ”

Buddha’s model does not say that the whole universe will be destroyed when the Earth (and the other planets in the Solar system) is destroyed. Only 10,000 more “star systems” (like our Solar system) will be destroyed. The rest of the universe remains the same.
– Of course, more 10,000 such “star systems” will be destroyed from time-to-time.
– In other words, a given system of 10,000 “star systems” will be destroyed periodically, just like ours. Then they “re-form” over many billions of years. Of course, the higher-lying Brahma realms are never destroyed, since there is very little “tangible matter” in those realms.
– This feature of the Buddha’s model has been PROVEN by science. The destruction of a whole cluster of stars (together with their planetary systems) does happen in the universe. Such an event is a supernova. There are a few such supernovae in our Milky Way galaxy each year.
– The “re-formation” of star systems has been also confirmed.

The current model of modern science says that the WHOLE UNIVERSE (with ALL star systems) came to existence with the Big Bang.
– There are some theories that say the whole universe will CONTRACT to a “point’ and then will undergo another Big Bang. (and that process may repeat.)
– But all those are theories and even the Big Bang model is not proven. Of course, most scientists believe in that model.

You may want to re-read the post with the above information in mind.
– Please feel free to ask questions if not clear.

[Lal]

You are not alone with this problem of addiction to various bad habits. Modern society is conducive to all these bad habits, including video games, porn movies, etc.

It is very difficult for many people to see that a simple life focused on contemplation is the best life. I have not even watched a movie for many years and I do not miss that at all. Such activities never even come to my mind. I live in a fairly large city in the US but I am not bothered or “attracted” to any enticements that surround me.

The root causes of ALL kinds of sufferings are associated with dasa akusala. But there are various levels of them. One needs to start dealing with the strongest ones first.

Those are the ones that one does with the bodily activities and speech, which I call “the big eight”. These are discussed in “2. The Basics in Meditation“. It is a good idea to reads that section: “Bhāvanā (Meditation)”

It is useless to try to comprehend deeper aspects like Tilakkhana until one’s mind can see that such actions and speech can lead to a high level of stress in the mind. Those actually have origin in abhijja (excess greed) and vyapada (excess anger), and miccha ditthi (10 types of wrong views) in one’s mind.
– As Cubibobi mentioned, getting rid of wrong views (miccha ditthi) is critical.

Initially, it will be hard to stay away from old habits. So, it will require determination. Whenever you get the urge to do something “bad” just start reading or listening to Dhamma or engage in one of the activities discussed below.

It is also necessary to have good eating habits and to engage in an exercise program. Just going for a run/walk will do. Yoga is another activity that you can even do at home. I started yoga more than 10 years ago. I just bought a couple of books and learned. Also, see this old post: “Spark” by John Ratey”
– Reading books is another way to keep the mind away from video games, etc. See, “Book Reviews”
– Another is to keep the home environment clean. What is needed is not expensive furniture, but a simple, clean environment. If you have seen a Buddhist temple, you get the idea.
– Yet another is to associate with those who have “good habits.” Even spending time on this forum, you will meet “good friends.”

Finally, the following posts could be of help:
“Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”
“Craving for Pornography – How to Reduce the Tendency“

[Lal]

Oetb asked another question via email:

If the characteristic of that kusala-mula is the desire to attain Nibbana:

Why is only the desire to attain Nibbana for oneself that characteristic, and not too the desire for others to attain Nibbana? (or the desire to help others to attain Nibbana)

Was motivated by the point number 5 of https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppada/kusala-mula-paticca-samuppada/

That says:

5. With puññābhi saṅkhāra as condition, a puññābhi viññāṇa arises. This puññābhi viññāṇa is accumulated as kamma bhava and could lead to corresponding “good” nāmarupa in pavutti Paṭicca Samuppāda or a new “good birth” in uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda.

Because the saṅkhāra was generated with a kusala-mula deed, only a kusala-mula viññāṇa arises: “pati +ichcha sama uppada“. The characteristic of this kusala-mula viññāṇa is the desire (chanda, not kāmachanda) for Nibbāna.
I think maybe when I read “desire for Nibbana” I implicitly add “for oneself” as “desire for Nibbana [for oneself]”.

That statement marked in bold also makes me wonder what kind of paticca samuppada cycles for beings not seeking for Nibbana, but doing good deeds and grasping deva or Brahma bhava. Good deeds do not fit in the akusala-mula paticca samuppada, but not seeking Nibbana does not fit in kusala-mula paticca samuppada.

Following was my answer:

You asked: “That statement marked in bold also makes me wonder what kind of paticca samuppada cycles for beings not seeking for Nibbana, but doing good deeds and grasping deva or Brahma bhava.”

For such a person it is the akusala-mula paticca samuppada cycle that comes into play. But the word “akusala” there is at different levels. The worst is when one does dasa akusala (like killing, stealing, etc). That will lead to births in the apayas.

– When one does “good deeds” WITHOUT comprehension of Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta) that is also a type of “mild akusala” because one does not realize that even births in the “good realms” will not lead to permanent removal of suffering since, after that good birth, one could still be born in the apayas in the long-run.

That is explained in: “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma”

Basically those “good deeds” are done with punna kamma. They are good but not as good as kusala kamma. And, punna kamma automatically becomes kusala kamma after one comprehends Tilakkhana. It is a matter of having a better comprehension of the true nature of this world.

It may take some effort to understand this point. But that is the difference between the “mundane eightfold path” and the “Noble Eightfold Path.”

Also see, “Transition to Noble Eightfold Path”

[Lal]

Yes. That is correct.

Of course, the “record of the pañcakkhandhā” (up to the moment of death) of an Arahant remains.

Therefore, one with high iddhi powers can look at that record and see the record up to the moment of Parinibbana.

[Lal]

I must add that as long as an Arahant lives, he/she will be subjected to kamma vipaka. The physical body of the Arahant arose due to previous kamma and will continue with its “good and bad” vipaka until its death.
– That is why the death of an Arahant is called “Parinibbana” or “anupadisesa Nibbaba” or “complete Nibbana.”
– Until then it is “saupadisesa Nibbana” or “Nibbana with residue.” Only “samphassa-ja-vedana” part of the suffering is eliminated during that remaining time.

[Lal]

Comments by cubibobi and y not could be both be right if we look at it the following way.

The Buddha said that everything in this world is associated with suffering (dukkha.)
– However, one will not be subjected to that suffering UNLESS one willingly embraces (or attaches) to those things.

It is best to take an analogy. If a bottle of poison is on the table, that will not bring death or suffering to anyone.
– However, if someone takes that bottle and drinks the poison, then THAT PERSON will be subjected to suffering.

Therefore, pancakkhandha is full of suffering. But one will be subjected to that suffering ONLY IF one willingly embraces pancakkhandha.
– That “willingly embracing” or “pulling it close” is the “upadana part” in “panca upadana khandha” or pancupadanakkhandha.

An Arahant has pancakkhandha but not pancupadanakkhandha.

An Anagami has given up those cravings for things in the kama loka, for example. So, his/her pancupadanakkhandha is much “much smaller” than that of an average human. He/she will not be subjected to suffering in the apayas, human world, or in Deva loka.
– We can see levels of suffering eliminated at each level of magga phala that way.

[Lal]

I thought it would be a good idea to explain y not’s following question:
“so in the case of the brahmin and his wife, are you saying that they TRIED TO RECALL the Buddha having been their son ? !!”

The answer is those are sanna (initial recognition), comes from the INSIDE. The sight of someone can bring back “familiarity” from the deep past. Only after that initial “feeling” or “sanna”, that they would have tried to recall that memory.

It would be better to look at an analogy. Sometimes when we meet someone new, we get a “feeling” that we may have seen or associated with that person in the past. And THEN we TRY TO RECALL if such an encounter happened in the past. It could be a friend that one has not seen for many years.
– What happened to the brahmin and his wife when they saw the Buddha was like that. They had a “feeling of familiarity” or sanna arising in the mind first. THEN, when they TRY TO RECALL, they may have “seen” a glimpse of memories from the past.
– As I remember, the Buddha explained that he was their son in many births (and possibly not in the too distant past.)
– However, such “recalling memories from past lives” does not happen often for older people. It does happen for children: “Evidence for Rebirth”

What I said was that it will take more posts to explain how those memories are recalled (the actual mechanism that takes place), when one tries to recall them.

[Lal]

Tobias asked: “Namarupa are generated via PS. But they are rupa, thus they belong to rupakkhandha, correct?”

This requires a somewhat deep analysis.

Namarupa are not in the rupakkhandha. But they are in the pancakkhandha, specifically in vinnanakkhandha. However, rupakkhandha (or any other individual khandha) does not arise separately from the other four khandhas.

In Abhidhamma, we have two categories: rupa and nama (vedana, sanna, sankhara). Those two categories are independent.
– It is the vinnana (our desires, hopes, expectations) that combine rupa and nama to “make living things.”
– When that happens we have the arising of pancakkhandha. Rupakkhandha is part of that.

That is another way to explain the difference between rupa and rupakkhandha. This is why it is important to understand that rupakkhandha is PERSONAL. One generates one’s own pancakkhandha, of which rupakkhandha is a part that cannot be separated from the other four.
– On the other hand, rupa are common to all of us. They are just “out there.”

This will become more clear when we get to pancakkhandha in the new series. But feel free to ask questions/discuss more.

P.S. A deeper analysis at: “Kamma Viññāna and Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñana“

[Author]

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