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I have not seen them specifically attributed like that. But I have heard some discourses by Waharaka Thero, where he mentioned such possible connections.
Normally, pathavi, apo, tejo, and vayo are attributed to avijja (moha) and vanna, gandha, rasa, oja to tanha. I think this categorization is more standard.
However, it seems logical to attribute apo to greed (but one can also attach via anger) and pathavi (and tejo) to anger. It is also logical to attribute tejo to avijja (moha) since uddacca is removed only at the Arahant stage with a last bit of avijja.
– Vayo is not likely to be associated with lobha or dosa but more with avijja (uncertainty).Wise thoughts and reflections, LayDhammaFollower!
1. There is no “person” going through the rebirth process (in the sense of a “permanent soul”).
2. What we experience now is vipaka of deeds (kamma) done in the past. Is the “experiencer” the same as the “doer”?
– We cannot pick one of those two answers. Since “we” keep changing, we cannot say “yes.” On the other hand, “me/I” AT the PRESENT MOMENT has evolved from past actions, and thus we cannot say “no” either. The key is to realize that as long as we have the wrong view (diṭṭhi) and perception (saññā) that “this world can be beneficial for ‘me'” suffering cannot be stopped.3. As long as past actions CAN bring their results (vipaka), suffering will continue. Those conditions arise due to lobha, dosa, and moha (ignorance of the Noble Truths about this world.)
4. We can stop those past actions (kamma) from bringing their results (vipaka). That is the key. That is done by losing the craving for worldly things. That requires understanding Buddha Dhamma (Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana) AND living according to Dhamma (ariyakanta sila) to lose cravings for worldly things.
5. The suffering (not only in this life, but especially in the apayas) is real (we can surely see the suffering in the animal realm), and our current actions can stop future suffering. That is the bottom line.
Jorg asked: “Does this verse also imply that this puts one in a more advantageous position of cultivating the path, e.g., cultivating an understanding of tilakkhana?”
Yes. Honoring (and taking care of) the wise (especially Noble Persons, parents, wise elders, etc.) helps set the necessary background to cultivate the Noble Path. It will help in this life and also in future lives.
– One who cultivates such prerequisites (also including giving, cultivating metta, etc.) will lead to rebirths conducive to cultivating the path. One will be reborn to a family with the right background (so that one will be exposed to Buddha Dhamma) and have a long healthy life.“Vuddhapacayino” comes from “vuddha” for elderly/wise, and “apacāyana” means to respect.
– Those who honor and respect the wise/Noble will get to a (mundane) “nicca” state where one’s expectations (on making progress on the Path) can be expected to be fulfilled.
– “Bala” here is not just physical strength but also “having enough resources” like enough health/wealth/wisdom so as not to be distracted from the Path.Good comment by Dosakkhayo.
Yes. I forgot to mention the sense of relief (niramisa sukha) separating from sensual pleasures. It is like reducing the load that one carries.
See “Bhāra Sutta (SN 22.22)“
Yes. There are many useful videos on Youtube.
– I like it and will give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion.The following series of videos is good:
Yash and LDF asked: “Also Lal mentioned “At the end of the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” the Buddha promised that one would attain at least the Anagami stage in two weeks if one practiced it incessantly;”
So what exactly should be done, Lal. I mean can you provide a structure from where should one start from to attain the stage within a fortnight?”As always, statements need to be taken in context. Let me write down some bullet points. We can discuss any of them if you have questions.
1. The time limits mentioned are specifically for bhikkhus. Attaining the Angami stage is practically impossible for a “householder” living a family life, as I have explained many times. By definition, anyone engaging in sex or related activities will not be able to attain the Anagami stage.
2. Even for bhikkhus, those are guidelines. To get to the Anagami or Arahant stage in two weeks, one must have a high level of panna and completely immerse in the effort. A good example is Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Moggalana. Many bhikkhus in the time of the Buddha could get to those magga phala within seven years. But it can be even slower these days, primarily because the true teachings of the Buddha are not available to most people.
3. Thus, the main goal of a householder should be to make sure to get to the Sotapanna stage. But confirmation of the Sotapanna stage is not as straightforward as that of the Anagami stage. If one attains the Anagami stage, there will be no doubt in their mind. That is because kama raga WILL NOT arise in an Anagami, even if the most beautiful woman in this world comes to him and invites him for sex. But watching an adult movie (porn) is enough to confirm it, too, in most cases.
– On the other hand, there is no such reliable indicator for the Sotapanna stage.
– Therefore, getting to at least the Anagami stage, if practical, is the best confirmation.4. But abstaining from sex may not be an option for many people.
– Even in that case, reducing “extra activities” like watching porn will help one get to the Sakadagami stage. A Sakadagami still has kama raga but at a lower intensity. That is why they will not be born in the human world but only in a Deva realm.
– Furthermore, as one progresses, one can experience the lessening of kama raga. We need to remember that kama raga means much more than sex. Any cravings for sensual pleasures (including tastes, smells, and other bodily comforts) are included in kama raga. The desire to own things is reduced and then goes away before one completely loses cravings for them. The progress is gradual, but there is definite progress that one can experience, as I have.
– Another aspect is that some “bad habits” go away just by learning Dhamma. For example, I did not make a strong effort to quit drinking; of course, I was not a heavy drinker. But I used to take a drink or two almost every day while I worked. That habit gradually went away. These days, I get a headache if I have a strong drink like whiskey. I can tolerate a beer, but there is no urge to have one. That vinnana has died! My advice is to avoid all that can be avoided. Most “pleasures” are mind-made. It is our vinnana that fools us into believing that those experiences are pleasurable. I know that from experience.1 user thanked author for this post.
P.S. It may be better to read #5 first. That gives the main idea.
1. I read through the discussion on this thread. I made two long comments on April 20, 2022, at 7:51 pm (Comment 1) and April 23, 2022, at 6:35 am (Comment 2). It is a good idea to read those again, Yash.
2. Also, read “Craving for Pornography – How to Reduce the Tendency”
3. As we have discussed repeatedly on this website, the way to remove future suffering (Nibbāna) has three critical steps. It may be hard to believe, but the first two steps are about getting rid of the wrong views!
(i) Cultivate the mundane path and remove the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi. It would be impossible to cleanse a mind without getting rid of the first layer of wrong views. Any doubts about the rebirth process will be eliminated at this step.
(ii) The second layer of wrong views is the mindset that future suffering can be eliminated by seeking births in Deva or Brahma realms. The uniqueness of Buddha’s teachings is the following. Suffering is present at various levels in all the realms of this world, and until escaping (or transcending) this world, it will not be possible to stop the worst suffering in the apāyās in the future. Those wrong views (mainly sakkāya diṭṭhi) are removed at the Sotapanna stage with lokuttara Sammā diṭṭhi (comprehension of Four Noble Truths/Paṭicca Samuppāda/Tilakkhana. This is only a change of mindset, but it requires a dedicated effort.
(iii) Even though our wring views about this world are removed by the Sotapanna stage, our perceptions (sanna) about sensual pleasures available in this world will still be there. The third layer is to follow the vision (Noble Path) gained by cultivating the correct versions of Ānāpānasati (same as Satipaṭṭhāna) and to remove those wrong perceptions. That leads to Arahathood via the Sakadagami and Anagami stages. Read through the new post carefully: “Mahārāhulovāda Sutta and Ānāpānasati.”
4. The point of all the above is that getting rid of cravings for sensual pleasures (especially sex) is not easy.
– Again, to emphasize, the Buddha taught Ānāpānasati/Satipaṭṭhāna to those at or above the Sotapanna stage.
– If it was easy, why would the Buddha go to such lengths?5. Don’t think that kama raga (including cravings for sex-related activities) can be overcome by just reading posts or listening to discourses.
– It requires a determined effort.
– The key is to avoid engaging in activities that feed the craving! Let us consider the specific example of watching porn (pornography).
– There is a specific “kamma vinnana” (an expectation) that keeps asking to be fed. What does that vinnana need? Its food is activities that would satisfy its need: “(abhi)sankhara paccaya (kamma)vinnana.” Those abhisankhara are watching more porn”! Any related activities like watching TV/movies/videos with similar visuals will also feed that vinnana.
– Staying away from those activities is the ONLY way to reduce that tendency. Consider the following analogy: In the old days, people captured wild elephants and trained them for work. Before starting the training, they needed to be tamed. As long as that elephant was energetic, it would not obey any commands. It needed to be weakened by depriving its food intake. However, they had to be persistent in not giving food for days to make the elephant weak enough to obey them. If they did not feed it for two days in a row and let it eat all it wanted for even an hour, the elephant would regain its strength. The trick was not to feed until the elephant was so weak that it could not stand up.
– The same principle applies here. One may abstain from watching porn for many days, but even one session of watching porn can get one back to square one.
– What I described above holds for ANY habit. If you really want to break a habit, you HAVE TO abstain from related activities, not just intermittently but persistently. In the Ānāpānasati language, this is the “dīghaṁ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṁ passasāmī’ti pajānāti” step. Those “deeply embedded” gati require a lengthy and concerted effort! See “How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View”6. Making a new GOOD habit works the same way, but the other around. You would engage in related activities as often as possible.
– That is “Dīghaṁ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṁ assasāmī’ti pajānāti”
– If one wants to cultivate good habits that will last a long time, one needs to engage in activities for long durations!7. Of course, the process can be guaranteed to work only if one has comprehended the fruitlessness/dangers of remaining in the rebirth process. At the end of the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” the Buddha promised that one would attain at least the Anagami stage in two weeks if one practiced it incessantly; at a slower pace, one would attain Anagami stage at least in seven years. But, of course, that holds only if one is at least a Sotapanna Anugami.
– Otherwise, one would want to focus more on learning Dhamma and attaining the Sotapanna stage. Of course, even then, one MUST cut down on activities like watching porn or excessive sensual activities. Instead of porn, others may crave delicious foods, watch movies, play video games, etc. All these activities are not conducive to learning Dhamma and getting to the Sotapanna stage.“I am no one to be able to spot errors in translation, since I do not know Sinhala. Best I can do is remark on places of inconsistency with Dhamma where it appears so to me purely in the English translation in itself.”
– Yes. Those are the same. Any inconsistency would arise due to a problem with the translation. That is what happened last time.
I am not sure how good the translation is since I have not listened to any of the videos in this series. I remember we ran into some issues with a previous translation. Please point out any possible errors or questions about the translations, and I can look into them.
– Please make sure to provide the time stamp regarding any questions. I don’t have the time to watch the whole video.That sentence is not correct.
I revised that bullet point (in #15) as follows:
– The kammaja kāya has all the kammic potentialities (kamma seeds) acquired up to any given time; see “Saṅkhāra, Kamma, Kamma Bīja, Kamma Vipaka,” and “Saṃsāric Habits and Āsavas.” But one of those seeds (which embeds matching gati) becomes operative for the “new bhava” and becomes the “bhavaṅga” for that life. The remaining kamma seeds will retain their gati; each kamma seed embeds the gati at the moment of its creation. One of those will rise to the next bhava or existence; that would be the one best matching the mindset at that paṭisandhi moment. Thus, different “gati” are in different kamma seeds. That is why an Arahant’s mind would not grasp any kamma seed with any gati.Thanks for pointing that out, Jorg!
Welcome to the forum, Samma Ditthi!
Thank you for sharing your experience. Yes. Hojanyun is doing a great job on the Korean website.
I am also glad that some of you are participating in both forums. All of you can express your thoughts clearly. So, no worries about English.
It is good that you have grasped the true meanings of “sankhara,” samsara,” “samphassa,” etc., by comprehending “san.”Please don’t hesitate to ask questions and comment on the posts by others. That will help your English as well as Dhamma knowledge.
I am glad that you understood the deeper aspects, Lang!
We can look at this from many different angles. I will briefly discuss two.
1. The density of matter is highest in kama loka. That is where pathavi, apo, and tejo are strongest.
– As we go to higher realms (six Deva realms), those births arise with much less lobha, dosa, and moha; thus, the density of their bodies and environment is much less. That is why scientists can’t see those realms.
– Births in Brahma realms are possible at even smaller lobha, dosa, and moha levels.2. When an average human attains the Sotapanna stage,lobha, dosa, and moha reduce substantially to raga, patigha, and lower levels of avijja. Thus, pathavi, apo, and tejo in the suddhatthaka generated by the Sotapanna is much less in proportion. Accordingly, any anger, greed, and ignorance arising in a Sotapanna are not enough to engage in highly immoral deeds. That is how a Sotapanna avoids rebirth in apayas.
– By the Anagami stage, that trend will lead to the disappearance of kama raga and patigha. Thus, an Anagami would not act with anger or kama raga. Thus, pathavi and tejo in the suddhatthaka generated by an Anagami would be much less proportioned. That is why an Anagami would be born only in a Brahma realm.
– By the Arahant stage, no gati is left to generate any kamma bija (or hadaya vatthu) with even a trace of suddhatthaka. No rebirths for an Arahant.That is a very brief outline.
Thank you, Lang, for bringing up this question on the “air element” or “vāyo.”
First, I moved Lang’s post from the “Questions About Puredhamma Posts” to the “Posts on ‘Elephants in the Room’” because the post in question is in the “Elephant in the Room 3 – Ānāpānasati” section. Of course, Lang could not see that because for this first week of posting as the “Home page” the breadcrumbs at the top of the post does not show the section.
Regarding the main question on “vāyo:”
There is a bit deeper explanation of the terms pathavi,āpo, tejo, and vāyo.
I just revised #7 of the post “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka” as follows.– The word āpo comes from the tendency to “attach or get attracted to worldly things” (“bandena gatiya” or “බැඳෙන ගතිය” in Sinhala means the “bind together,” which leads to liquidity in science). Tejo comes from “fiery or energetic” (“théjas gati” or “තේජස් ගතිය” in Sinhala), and vāyo refers to “motion/vacillation” (“salena gatiya” or “සැලෙන ගතිය” in Sinhala). They are all created in javana citta that arise in mind in minute quantities that cannot be detected. However, yogis with abhiññā powers can generate large amounts of matter like a flower.
– Added October 29, 2022: There is a deeper explanation: According to the above explanations, āpo, pathavi, and tejo can be attributed to lobha, dosa, and moha. Vacillation in vāyo represents uncertainty; that represents mundane alobha, adosa, amoha, or the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths. See “Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbāna).”Thus, we can say that vāyo is the “better element” compared to āpo, pathavi, and tejo. The latter three can be attributed to the “kāma loka” and vāyo can be taken to represent rupa loka lying above the kāma loka.
– P.S. Thus, we can indirectly connect to anariya yogis getting into anariya jhāna with breath mediation (by overcoming lobha, dosa, and moha, temporarily, i.e., without removing anusaya.)Thanks.
I tried to use Notion, but it didn’t work out. I just watched a bit of a Youtube video, and Obsidian seems to take a different approach than Notion. Have you been using it for a while? If you have a helpful video on it, please post it. Otherwise, I am sure I can search Youtube and find more information.
