Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Thank you, Seng Kiat, for displaying Dosakkhayo’s chart. It is good to see it there.
1. By the way, only a Buddha can see the INITIAL manomaya kaya of gandhabba. Even yogis with the highest abhinna powers cannot see that.
– But once born, a gandhabba may “grow” a bit by absorbing scents from flowers, etc. (Thus the name “gandha + abba” or “taking in scents.”) Then even some average humans with punna iddhi may be able to see one.2. However, an arupavacara Brahma remains with that manomaya kaya of just a hadaya vatthu. Thus no one else but a Buddha can see those arupavacara Brahmas.
– Thus, ancient yogis (including Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta) thought getting to the arupavacara realms would end the rebirth process.
– That is also why those realms are labeled “arupa” or “without rupa.” Only after the Buddha was it realized that those “fine rupa” of the arupavacara Brahmas are there. Thus, in a way, “arupavacara” is not strictly correct.First part:
Yes. I mixed up the two suttas. Corrected it. Thank you!
Second part:
Yes. Both explanations hold.
– Attachment to them sustain the rebirth process. Losing attachment to them (with the correct seeing of the true nature) leads to stopping their arising, i.e., Nibbana.Third part:
Yes. The Buddha described “loka” in several ways: six dhatu, five aggregates, 12 ayatana, etc.
No errors. Very good. This is real insight mediation!
Dosakkhayo has finalized the drawing/chart on the progression of invisible rupa (dhammā) generated in our minds (in javana citta) due to gati to condensed stages.
The progression is: gati > dhammā > suddhāṭṭhaka (bhuta) > mahā bhuta > dhātu (finer) > dhātu (dense)I am very happy to see his level of understanding. Also, much merits to him for making this chart available to all.
– The chart gives a good visualization of how “small” suddhāṭṭhaka is. It is just bit “denser” than gati/dhammā
– Our mental body (gandhabba) is just six suddhāṭṭhaka (hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa.) On the other hand, our physical body is at the highest density (many pounds/kg.) The more important one is of course the mental body (gandhabba.)
“Dosakkhayo’s chart (PDF) Download”
The post that discusses this: “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka”
Tobias wrote: “Dukkha is “actual suffering” (physical pain and mental suffering) and the “danger of suffering” in the future (dukkhaṁ bhayaṭṭhena).”
Just before that, you wrote: “Finally all dukkha is based on previous sankhara and therefore all dukkha would be sankhara dukkha.”
The more recent statement is better. That is the explanation given in Nettipakarana (one of the three Tipitaka commentaries) that you asked the first question about.
In my answer to that question, I translated that verse:
Suffering is three-fold: Dukkha dukkhatā, saṅkhāra dukkhatā, vipariṇāma dukkhatā.
– From those three, “the great danger” is “saṅkhāra dukkhatā.”
– That is because the rebirth process is maintained by saṅkhāra generation (via “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.”) Thus, once overcoming the saṅkhāra dukkhatā the other two are also removed, and one will get to Nibbāna (Saṅkhāradukkhatāya pana loko anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā muccati,)It is better to say, “all types of dukkha EXPERIENCED would be DUE TO (abhi)sankhara.”
The First Noble Truth explains three types of suffering (dukkha): Dukkha dukkhatā, saṅkhāra dukkhatā, vipariṇāma dukkhatā.
– Here, engaging in saṅkhāra also makes one suffer even at the time of engaging in saṅkhāra generation (for example, working hard to get a good job or a promotion.)The First Noble Truth also explains the cause of all three types of suffering to be encountered in the future.
– That is engaging in saṅkhāra. That is the main part of saṅkhāra dukkhatā.Let me put it in another way.
– Rebirth process with all three types of suffering arises from “avijja paccaya (abhi)sankhara,” i.e., due to saṅkhāra dukkhatā.The point is that Noble Truths on Suffering are NOT merely about the suffering experienced now. It is MOSTLY about future suffering and how that arises and how it can be stopped.
– Future suffering arises BECAUSE we get attached to “sukha-generating things” with abhisankhara. Thus “the great danger.”I revised an old post on the subject: “Is Suffering the Same as the First Noble Truth on Suffering?“
Yes. You are right.
See #1 of “Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”)” for an explanation of ” aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati.”
Yes. These translations could be confusing because they don’t provide context. They mechanically translate suttas without understanding.
The point is clarified in the “Girimānanda Sutta (AN 10.60)” which lists 10 types of saññā where I linked.
“Anicca saññā, anatta saññā, asubha saññā, ādīnava saññā, pahāna saññā, virāga saññā, nirodha saññā, sabbaloke anabhirata saññā, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchā saññā, ānāpānassati.”
That verse needs to be explained in great detail. Here “trainee” or “sekha” is one on the Noble Path, i.e., Sotapanna Anugami through Arahant Anugami.
1. Why are there two types of anicca saññā?
– First, everyone (even non-trainees or average people) can cultivate anicca saññā at the level of abhisankhara.
– When a trainee gets close to the Arahant stage, that is when they can see the anicca nature of ALL sankhara, that is “sabba saṅkhāresu anicchā saññā, i.e., anicca nature of “all saṅkhāra.”
– See #1 of “Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”)” for an explanation of ” aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati.”
– That phrase comes later in the sutta at this link: “Girimānanda Sutta (AN 10.60)”2. Also note: Right after that, is the tenth term “ānāpānassati.”
– If you keep reading, you can see that all types of “meditations” to be cultivated with ānāpānassati. Of course, Satipatthana is equivalent to Anapanasati.
– That should convince anyone that ānāpānassati is not “breath meditation”. That is an insult to the Buddha!
– At some point I will write a post showing how close Satipatthana is to Anapanasati. If one takes the time to read the two relevant suttas, that should become obvious. No need even to write a post!There is no riddle.
The stopping of that cycle happens by stopping “avijja paccaya (abhi)sankhara.”
– Avijja is removed via comprehending Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppaada/Tilakkhana.
– Of course, one has to be mindful at all times (Anapana/Satipatthana), too: “Indriyabhāvanā Sutta (MN 152)“Yes. Nothing wrong with what you wrote.
– But always, one can go into details.1. When an arammana comes in, whether one attaches (tanha) to it depends on one’s set of anusaya, one’s gati at that moment, and the strength of the arammana (e.g., how beautiful a person that you are seeing, how much liking you have for a certain food).
2. One’s gati keep changing, especially due to the environment (family, friends, etc.). Based on that, anusaya will evolve too.
– Details (specific types) of anusaya will evolve from life to life. But the main categories will not be removed until the corresponding stage of magga phala is attained.
– Only an Arahant would not have any anusaya, gati, samyojana, etc. They will not attach (tanha) to any arammana.3. To dig deeper:
“Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna”
“Search Results for: gati anusaya“Yes. Exactly!
You wrote: “Yoniso manasikara should be cultivated..”
I am not sure whether I have explained this in detail, but cultivating yoniso manasikara REQUIRES comprehending Paticca Samuppada, i.e., how various bhava (and jati) arise CORRESPONDING to the types of abhisankhara cultivated.
– Greedy abhisankhara lead to peta (preta) bhava, hateful abhisankhara lead to niraya bhava, etc.It describes the fickle/unstable nature of things in this world.
The sutta compares:
– “rupa” to foam (bubbles that appear in a river and break quickly),
– feeling (vedana) also foam (bubbles that appear when it rains and break quickly),
– perception (sanna) to a mirage, and
– vinnana to the trunk of a banana tree (which has no “hardcore” or essence); one becomes tired at the end.Feel free to ask questions if the translation in the link is not clear.
I am glad to hear that, Jorg.
Let me expand my above answer to clarify a bit more.
There are 24 paccaya in “Paṭṭhāna” in Abhidhamma.
– That is the deepest level of Buddha Dhamma. It describes 24 types of conditions (“paccaya“) in Paticca Samuppada. See “Paṭṭhāna Dhamma – Connection to Cause and Effect (Hetu Phala)”
– I have discussed a few of them in the section “Paṭṭhāna Dhamma”
– Upanisa paccaya is an important one. I will discuss it next when I get some time. It is just that there are so many things that seem urgent!But as I wrote above, one can go a long way without reading about these details.
– I recommend reading the “Indriyabhāvanā Sutta (MN 152)”
– It describes Anapanasati/Satipatthana in simple terms. All one needs to do is to “mindfully protect one’s sensory faculties” by not yielding to temptations. That is not an easy task. But it becomes easier when one comprehends the “anicca nature” (unfruitful/dangerous nature) of sensory attractions.By the way, this thread has become too long.
It takes time to scroll down here!
– May be the next person wishing to continue the discussion should start a new thread, “Goenka’s Vipassana – Part 2”
– After starting that thread, I can make a link from here to the next thread.Jorg wrote: “I accidentally came across another passage that aims to justify the practice of observing sensations.”
1. Observing sensations for the sake of observing is of no value.
– One needs to be mindful of WHY a certain sensation comes in.
– For example, if a sukha vedana comes in (say due to seeing a beautiful woman), one needs to contemplate the anicca nature of getting attached to that person.
– Do they explain how “observing sensations” lead to dispelling defilements? or to lead to the Sotapanna stage?2. That is not what these meditation programs try to teach you.
– Rather, they focus on bodily sensations arising WHILE IN A MEDITATION RETREAT.
– Such sensations are MOSTLY bodily sensations! One cannot get to Nibbana by monitoring them!3. As I have tried to explain many times, meditation MUST BE done at all times. That means being mindful and STOPPING getting attached to various enticing arammana!
– Of course, arammana that makes one angry must be dispelled too.
– Furthermore, one must learn Dhamma, so one will not be uncertain (vicikicca) about some arammana too.4. Regarding those Plai verses:
“1. Kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ kāyikassa sukhassa, kāyikassa dukkhassa, phalasamāpattiyā upanissaya paccayena paccayo.”Those people have no idea about the upanisa paccaya in Abhidhamma.
– Before I explain the meaning of that verse, I need to explain the upanisa paccaya.
– There is no need to go that far right now.I advise first reading the posts on this subject under “Anapanasati” and “Satipatthana.”
For example, “Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta”
– It is a waste of time to translate deep Pali verses. A mere word-by-word translation is meaningless. I will have to write several posts to explain the message conveyed in those verses fully.The following post is from Jorg:
Thank you Lal!
I accidentally came across another passage that aims to justify the practice of observing sensations. It’s actually mentioned right after the already discussed key phrase Vedanāsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā in the section called: “Vedanā in the Practice of Satipaṭṭhāna”I’ll provide the context including the key pali phrases below.
I would be interested in knowing the meaning of those Pali verses.“In all references to vedanā in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta the Buddha speaks of sukhā vedanā, dukkhā vedanā, i.e., the body sensations; or adukkhamasukhā vedanā, which in this context also clearly denotes neutral body sensations.
The strong emphasis is on body sensations because they work as a direct avenue for the attainment of fruition (nibbāna) by means of “strong dependence condition” (upanissaya-paccayena paccayo), i.e., the nearest dependent condition for our liberation. This fact is succinctly highlighted in the Paṭṭhāna, the seventh text of Abhidhamma Piṭaka under the Pakatūpanissaya, where it is stated:
1. Kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ kāyikassa sukhassa, kāyikassa dukkhassa, phalasamāpattiyā upanissayapaccayena paccayo.
2. Kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ kāyikassa sukhassa, kāyikassa dukkhassa, phalasamāpattiyā upanissayapaccayena paccayo.
3. Utu kāyikassa sukhassa, kāyikassa dukkhassa, phalasamāpattiyā upanissayapaccayena paccayo.
4. Bhojanaṃ kāyikassa sukhassa, kāyikassa dukkhassa, phalasamāpattiyā upanissayapaccayena paccayo.
5. Senāsanaṃ kāyikassa sukhassa, kāyikassa dukkhassa, phalasamāpattiyā upanissayapaccayena paccayo.1. Pleasant body sensation is related to pleasant sensation of the body, unpleasant sensation of the body, and attainment of fruition (nibbāna) by strong dependence condition.
2. Unpleasant body sensation is related to pleasant sensation of the body, unpleasant sensation of the body, and attainment of fruition by strong dependence condition.
3. The season (or surrounding environment) is related to pleasant sensation of the body, unpleasant sensation of the body, and attainment of fruition by strong dependence condition.
4. Food is related to pleasant sensation of the body, unpleasant sensation of the body, and attainment of fruition by strong dependence condition.
5. Lying down and sitting (i.e., the mattress and cushions, or the position of lying, sitting, etc.) is related to pleasant sensation of the body, unpleasant sensation of the body, and attainment of fruition by strong dependence condition.From the above statement it is clear how important vedanā, sensation, is on the path of liberation. The pleasant and unpleasant body sensations, the surrounding environment (utu), the food we eat (bhojanaṃ), and the sleeping and sitting position, the mattress or cushions used, etc. (senāsanaṃ) are all responsible for ongoing body sensations of one type or another. When the sensations are experienced properly, as the Buddha explained in Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta, these become the nearest dependent condition for our liberation.
There are four dimensions to our nature: the body and its sensations, and the mind and its contents. These provide four avenues for the establishing of awareness in satipaṭṭhāna. In order that the observation be complete, we must experience every facet, which we can only do by means of vedanā. This exploration of truth will remove the delusions we have about ourselves.
In the same way, to come out of the delusion about the world outside, we must explore how the outside world interacts with our own mind-and-matter phenomenon, our own self. The outside world comes in contact with the individual only at the six sense doors: the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. Since all these sense doors are contained in the body, every contact of the outside world is at the body level.”
Great. I am glad to hear that.
I received the drawing that you sent to my email. But it could take a day or two to go over it.
The website started slowing down recently, and it became a bit worse this morning. We are working with the Web Hosting company to resolve the issue. They have made some temporary adjustments, which should give us some time.
So, I hope to post your drawing after getting this issue resolved.
