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I have revised your link to point to that verse.
– English translation there is not bad, but I would write as: “That’s how I instruct Bhikkhus who are trainees—who haven’t achieved Arahanthood, but live aspiring to attain Nibbana.”
– That translator translates “bhikkhu” as “mendicant” all the time. A Bhikkhu is NOT a “begger”: “mendicant definition”
– It is an insult to call a Bhikkhu a “begger”!Anyway, the point is that “sekkhā” is a “trainee,” someone on the Noble Path who has not attained Arahanthood.
– “apattamānasā” means “not reached.”
– “anuttaraṁ yogakkhemaṁ” means “ultimate goal”
– “patthayamānā viharanti” means “live aspiring to reach that goal.”Also, when posting at the forum, please take a moment to format it. I have revised the title as well. It will look better and will save time for others (especially by making the link to appear in a different tab; that is in #2 of the instructions: “Note: Don’t forget to check the little box “Open link in a new tab” so that when someone clicks on the link, it will be opened in a new window.”)
– Instructions: “How to Post/Reply to a Forum Question“TGS wrote: “My answer to my question #1. is that there are no 1st, 2nd, 3rd jhana samapatti. If there are no jhana samapatti from 1st to 3rd jhana, than my question #2. is invalid. How did I arrive to such conclusions?
This is something I’m not totally sure about, but thought to bring it up for scrutiny and advice….”
There is a samapatti corresponding to any given jhana.
– I have given the definition of a samapatti. It is when jhanic citta vithi runs continuously without “falling back” to kamavacara citta vithi. One is fully absorbed in the jhana. That is the definition of jhana samapatti.That also applies to a phala samapatti. The phala citta runs continuously without falling back. Mind is fully absorbed there without falling back to be aware of the external world.
I have entirely rewritten an old post, “Power of the Human Mind – Anariya or Mundane Jhānas” that will hopefully address the questions raised by TGS.
It is only a draft, and I hope to refine it.
Feel free to point out any mistakes/omissions or ask unresolved questions so I can improve the post.I went through other older posts on jhana, samapatti, etc., and some need to be rewritten or revised.
Thanks, Tobias.
Yes. That was an error. I have revised that sentence in #8 as follows:
“But there are Paññāvimutta Arahants who had not cultivated jhāna but attained Arahanthood in relatively short times. However, they also get to the vicinity of the first jhāna briefly at the moment of Arahant magga phala, but they need to practice jhāna to get into jhāna at will.”“Samādhi, Jhāna, and Sammā Samādhi”
Only Upacāra (U), Anuloma (A) samadhi are needed to get to any magga phala. See #14 and #15 of the following post for citta vithi involving magga phala and jhana.
“Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs“Yes. Nibbana can be reached in many ways. There are many suttas stating that in different ways.
1. “Dutiyaānanda Sutta (SN 54.14)“: “Ānāpānassatisamādhi, ānanda, ekadhammo bhāvito bahulīkato cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūreti, cattāro satipaṭṭhānā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satta bojjhaṅge paripūrenti, satta bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā bahulīkatā vijjāvimuttiṁ paripūrentīti.”
That means “Ānāpānassati samādhi, when developed and cultivated, fulfills satipaṭṭhāna. And when satipaṭṭhāna developed and cultivated, fulfill the seven awakening factors (satta bojjhaṅga). And the seven awakening factors, when developed and cultivated, fulfill knowledge and freedom (vijjāvimuttiṁ paripūrentīti), i.e., Arahanthood.2. “Avijjā Sutta (AN 10.61)” at the end: “Evamevaṁ kho, bhikkhave, sappurisasaṁsevo paripūro saddhammassavanaṁ paripūreti, saddhammassavanaṁ paripūraṁ saddhaṁ paripūreti, saddhā paripūrā yonisomanasikāraṁ paripūreti, yonisomanasikāro paripūro satisampajaññaṁ paripūreti, satisampajaññaṁ paripūraṁ indriyasaṁvaraṁ paripūreti, indriyasaṁvaro paripūro tīṇi sucaritāni paripūreti, tīṇi sucaritāni paripūrāni cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūrenti, cattāro satipaṭṭhānā paripūrā satta bojjhaṅge paripūrenti, satta bojjhaṅgā paripūrā vijjāvimuttiṁ paripūrenti; 9.2evametissā vijjāvimuttiyā āhāro hoti, evañca pāripūrī”ti.”
3. The following sutta starts even earlier with “associating with good people/Noble Persons.” “Taṇhā Sutta (AN 10.62)“: “Iti kho, bhikkhave, sappurisasaṁsevo paripūro saddhammassavanaṁ paripūreti, saddhammassavanaṁ paripūraṁ saddhaṁ paripūreti, saddhā paripūrā yonisomanasikāraṁ paripūreti, yonisomanasikāro paripūro satisampajaññaṁ paripūreti, satisampajaññaṁ paripūraṁ indriyasaṁvaraṁ paripūreti, indriyasaṁvaro paripūro tīṇi sucaritāni paripūreti, tīṇi sucaritāni paripūrāni cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūrenti, cattāro satipaṭṭhānā paripūrā satta bojjhaṅge paripūrenti, satta bojjhaṅgā paripūrā vijjāvimuttiṁ paripūrenti;”
– Here, if one learns the correct Dhamma, one can fulfill all requirements step by step.4. The following sutta points out that by following any parts of the 37 factors of Enlightenment (Catunnaṁ satipaṭṭhānānaṁ, catunnaṁ sammappadhānānaṁ, catunnaṁ iddhipādānaṁ, pañcannaṁ indriyānaṁ, pañcannaṁ balānaṁ, sattannaṁ bojjhaṅgānaṁ, ariyassa aṭṭhaṅgikassa maggassa) one can get to Nibbana. “Bhāvanā Sutta (AN 7. 71)”
– “catunnaṁ sammappadhānānaṁ” = four supreme efforts that you mentioned!You almost got to the point, TGS.
If Ven. Sariputta was in Nirodha Samapatti, he would not have any saññā.
– But he stated that he was still perceiving, meaning he still had saññā arising.
– If one still has saññā, that means one still has citta arising. Yet, he did not perceive anything in this world (na idhaloke idhalokasaññī) or anything of paraloka (na paraloke paralokasaññī)
– Ven. Saripuatta was in Arahant phala samadhi! There only pure, undefiled citta (pabhassara citta) would arise. A pabhassara citta has only seven uncontaminated, universal cetasika (with pure saññā and vedana). That means one is ONLY aware that one is alive but does not perceive anything in the world.
– A citta normally would contaminate in nine stages. Even for Arahants, it will go through the mano, manasan stages. See “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought”
– In contrast, no citta (i.e., no saññā) in nirodha samapatti: “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“I chatted with the new ChatGPT this morning, which is supposed to be a form of artificial intelligence (AI).
Following is the conversation:
Can a Creator exist?
– Yes, it is possible for a creator to exist. The concept of a creator is a common theme in many belief systems, including many religions and mythologies. In these belief systems, a creator is typically described as a divine being or force that brought the universe into existence. However, the existence of a creator is a matter of belief and cannot be proven or disproven through scientific means.Doesn’t it violate the principle of cause and effect?
– The principle of cause and effect states that every event or action has a cause that precedes it and leads to the event or action. This principle is a fundamental concept in many fields, including science, philosophy, and logic.So doesn’t the concept of a creator violate that principle?
– The concept of a creator, as it is commonly understood in many belief systems, does not necessarily violate the principle of cause and effect. In these belief systems, the creator is typically considered to be the ultimate cause of the universe and everything in it. In other words, the creator is seen as the initial cause that set the chain of events and actions in motion, leading to the universe and all of the things in it.But what caused the creator?
– The concept of a creator, as it is commonly understood in many belief systems, is typically considered to be the ultimate cause of the universe and everything in it. This means that the creator is seen as the initial cause that set the chain of events and actions in motion, leading to the universe and all of the things in it. As such, the creator is not itself caused by anything else. Rather, it is the cause of everything else.Does every cause lead to an effect?
– Yes, according to the principle of cause and effect, every cause leads to an effect. This means that every event or action has a cause that precedes it and leads to the event or action. The principle of cause and effect is a fundamental concept in many fields, including science, philosophy, and logic.Don’t the necessary conditions need to be satisfied for a cause to lead to an effect?
– Yes, it is generally believed that certain necessary conditions must be satisfied in order for a cause to lead to an effect. For example, in the scientific study of causality, it is often assumed that a cause must precede its effect in time and that the cause must be related to the effect in some way. However, the specific necessary conditions for causality can vary depending on the context and the particular approach used to study it.So your statement, “Yes, according to the principle of cause and effect, every cause leads to an effect” is wrong?
– I apologize if my previous response was unclear. While it is generally accepted that every cause leads to an effect, it is also generally believed that certain necessary conditions must be satisfied in order for this to happen. In other words, not every cause will necessarily lead to an effect unless the necessary conditions for causality are met. I hope this helps clarify my previous response.What are conditions for the world to exist if a creator set the first cause?
– It is not possible for me to answer this question definitively, as the concept of a creator and the conditions for the existence of the universe are matters of belief and interpretation. In many belief systems, the creator is considered to be the ultimate cause of the universe, setting the initial conditions and laws that govern the universe. However, the specific conditions for the existence of the universe in these belief systems can vary depending on the particular interpretation.Can we skip belief systems and stick to logic?
– Yes, we can certainly consider the concept of a creator and the conditions for the existence of the universe from a logical perspective. In this case, we would need to define the concept of a creator and the conditions for the existence of the universe in a way that is consistent with the laws of logic. This would allow us to reason about these concepts using logical arguments and draw conclusions based on the evidence and information available. However, it is important to note that the conclusions reached through logical reasoning may not necessarily align with the beliefs of any particular belief system.Belief systems can be wrong. So, i like to skip that altogether?
– It is certainly true that belief systems can be wrong or inconsistent with reality. However, it is important to recognize that belief systems also provide a framework for understanding the world and our place in it. They can offer explanations for the origins of the universe and its workings, as well as guidance for how to live a fulfilling and meaningful life. While it is important to critically evaluate belief systems and not blindly accept them, it is also important to recognize the value they can bring to our lives.It seems to me that you are just summarizing what is in books, not necessarily logical thinking.
– As a language model trained by OpenAI, my responses are based on the information that I have been trained on, which includes a wide range of text from books, articles, and other sources. I do not have the ability to browse the internet or access new information, so my responses are limited to what I have been trained on. While I can provide information and offer explanations based on the text I have been trained on, I cannot engage in original logical thinking or provide information that is not contained in my training data. I apologize if my previous responses did not make this clear.OK. I understand. Thank you!
– You’re welcome. I’m glad I could help clarify. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask and I will do my best to provide a helpful response based on the information I have been trained on.
*************I have bolded the critical statements from the ChatGPT at the end.
– There is no “intelligence” involved in the sense of original, logical thinking. Only humans are capable of that.
– But it can quickly summarize what it has learned based on the information fed to it by the programmers!1 user thanked author for this post.
In my last comment I stated:
“Furthermore, different people get rid of sakkaya ditthi in different ways.
– There is a sutta where the Buddha gave an analogy. One time, a bhikkhu went around asking other bhikkhus (who had declared attaining the Sotapanna stage) how to describe the Sotapanna stage. Each one gave different descriptions of the Sotapanna stage.
– That bhikkhu got confused and complained to the Buddha. The Buddha gave an analogy of asking someone to describe a tree that had a unique trunk (black), unique flowers (bright red looking like pieces of red meat), and unique leaves (specific unique shape). Some people would identify the tree as having that unique trunk, some others describe it with flowers or leaves. But they all had seen the tree!
– I don’t remember the name of that sutta.”The sutta is “Kiṁsukopama Sutta (SN 35. 245)”
Following is a Wikipedia article on that tree the Buddha referred to:
“Butea monosperma”
– In the above English translation, it is referred to as a “parrot tree.”
– In Sri Lanka, it is called a “කෑල tree,” as the Wikipedia article mentions.
– The article has pictures of it in different seasons.Yes. Our bodies are “vipaka kaya” dependently originated.
– Furthermore, they are built around a manomaya kaya which arises due to kammic energies created by our (javana) citta!
(A manomaya kaya (made of suddhatthaka) arises due to kammic energy created by our javana citta. Then the physical body grows according to that blueprint with energy from the food we eat.)Thus, our physical bodies are not only dependently originated but originated via our minds.
– It is somewhat like a magician’s work.
– That is why kamma vinnana (in javana citta) is like a magician. Something created by a magician is flimsy!The following link has that verse and the English translation there:
“Girimānanda Sutta (AN 10.60)”You may be focusing on the English translation of “asuci” as “many kinds of filth.”
The Pali word “suci” means “pure.” Asuci means “impure.”
– Depending on the context, one could take asuci to mean “filth” or even “feces.”
– But here, it means just impure.The message here is that our bodies are a collection of parts. Furthermore, such a body is subject to many ailments.
– It is of no benefit to making such bodies in future lives.
– As I wrote earlier, we must avoid generating “patigha saññā” or revulsion during meditation. We need to understand the true nature of our physical bodies (yathabhuta ñāna.)P.S. The last verse you quoted is “Ayaṁ vuccatānanda, asubhasaññā”
– Asubhasaññā is not about revulsion (or “perception of ugliness” in the above English translation.) Asubha means “not beneficial.”“Regarding the words “gatō vā,“ is gatō related to gati?”
No. “gatō vā“ means “once got to” or “once arrived at.”
– The deeper meaning is to cultivate a mind that is free of struggles to keep material possessions, a mindset that cannot be disturbed
easily with sensory attractions, etc., as described in that post.As you mentioned, it could mean both the mundane and the deeper meaning.
– One could go to a forest, to the foot of a tree … (or a quiet place), and that would help too. Doing a “formal mediation” in a noisy environment would be difficult.
– However, the deeper meaning applies whether one is doing a formal mediation OR “being mindful at all times.”Thank you.
Meevanapalane Thero’s discourses contain essentially the same teachings published on this website.
– Of course, there could be minor differences.
– Also, I have not read the English translation. I am not sure how accurate it is.This is a good question. I need to write a post or two on the subject.
1. First, the conventional spelling is “pujā” even though it is pronounced, “poojā.”
2. “Pujā” is normally translated as homage or devotional offering. However, it has a deeper meaning of “making a suitable background/environment for spiritual development (to attain Nibbana.)
3. As we all know, Buddha Gotama is no longer in this world. So, it is not a “devotional offering” for Buddha Gotama.
– Of course, a pujā in his name symbolizes our gratitude to the Buddha for teaching us how to stop suffering in the rebirth process.4. There are two ways to “make an offering” or pujā. (i) Āmisa pujā and (ii) Paṭipatti pujā
– The first type, Āmisa pujā, is to offer food, clothes, etc., that can be used. Of course, that does not apply to a Buddha pujā.
– It is the second type of Paṭipatti pujā that applies in this case. The Buddha taught that the best way to honor him would be to follow his teachings and attain Nibbāna.5. Thus, we must figure out how to conduct a proper Paṭipatti Buddha pujā.
– The customary way is to offer flowers, incense, and light. All three have deeper meanings and also set the background for formal meditation.6. We offer beautiful flowers to the Buddha. But we know those flowers would lose beauty in a day or two. That symbolizes the “anicca nature.” We contemplate that our bodies are like those flowers (if we are still young.) Our parents/grandparents had young and vibrant bodies while they were young, but now some have decaying bodies with ailments, and others may be dead. That is the fundamental nature of this world.
– If you have seen incense sticks, they are pretty straight. They symbolize one’s character (gati.) If one is truthful and does not engage in any immoral behavior, one does not need to “bend to ask for forgiveness.” You may have seen people being arrested for crimes; they try to hide their faces with their heads bowed.
– Furthermore, the odor/smell of incense is not like that of perfume. People wear perfume to parties. The smell of incense is not suitable for a party atmosphere but has a calming effect.
– Light symbolizes wisdom, the opposite of darkness which symbolizes ignorance.
– Furthermore, oil lamps with wicks soaked in coconut oil are typically used. That has a deeper meaning too. Such a lamp will extinguish if the oil or the wick burns out. In the same way, our bodies will die when the kammic energy that sustains this human bhava runs out or the lifetime of this physical body comes to an end. Thus we must be mindful of the limited time we have to make progress on the path. Thus, it also symbolizes the anicca nature.7. Of course, people normally recite verses while engaging in such offerings. Those verses have meanings too. See “Buddhist Chanting.”
8. If such an offering is made with the proper mindset, that makes one’s mind calm and peaceful. That is why it is done before a formal meditation session or listening to a discourse.
Please feel free to comment or ask questions. That will help me write a couple of posts in the future too.
– I will write about Bodhi pujā later on, either here or in a post. It is not about just blindly “worshipping a tree.” The Bodhi tree is a special tree that will stay alive through the end of this Buddha Sāsana, 2500 years from now.It is not like ‘H’ in the word “Have” in those words you quoted.
– There, the letter in front of the “H” must be emphasized.
– The audio files for those words are at “Pāli Glossary – (A-K)” and “Pāli Glossary – (L-Z)”However, if the letter “H” is at the beginning of a Pali word, it is pronounced as in the word “Have.”
Any verse in a sutta needs to be analyzed in context. The above verses refer to when our Bodhisatta went through six years of “unfruitful efforts,” subjecting the body to hardships.
Again, it is a good idea to read a sutta with Plai and English side-by-side (keeping in mind that translations of some verses are incorrect). I am linking to emphasize the above point (“Before my awakening”):
“Mahāsaccaka Sutta (MN 36)”The translation is correct here:
“So I cut off my breathing through my mouth and nose and ears
So kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, mukhato ca nāsato ca kaṇṇato ca assāsapassāse uparundhiṁ.”
– The Bodhisatta was trying a practice implemented by some ascetics to “remove defilements by subjecting the body to hardships.” “assāsapassāsa” in the above verse DOES refer to “breathing in and out.” He was forcefully stopping breathing in and out. This is why it is CRITICAL to note the context. Read the whole sutta, not just specific verses.But the translation of the first verse you quoted is INCORRECT:
“‘Why don’t I keep practicing the breathless absorption?’
yannūnāhaṁ appāṇakaṁyeva jhānaṁ jhāyeyyan’ti.”
– Here, “jhānaṁ jhāyeyyan’ti” is INCORRECTLY translated as “breathless absorption.”
– As we have discussed, “jhāyi” means to “burn,” specifically to “burn defilements.” The Bodhisatta thought, “Why don’t I try burning defilements (by stop breathing)”?
– See “Jhāna, Jhāya, and Jhāyi – Different Meanings”This is why it is dangerous to translate (or read) Pali suttas word-by-word without understanding the context!
