Arising of Tanhā

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    • #40050
      LayDhammaFollower
      Participant

      Lal, As I understand tanha arises in two ways.

      1. Sukha vipakā vēdanā causing raga anusuya,
      (so generating greed, liking, wanting more of it, welcoming it, keeping it close afterwards)

      Dukha vipakā vēdanā causing patigha anusuya
      (Opposite than what happened with sukha vipakā vedana, i.e. one resists this feelings)

      This vipakā vēdanā just triggers the EXISTING anusuya, if they fit with each other.

      2. After this arising of āsavā, one DELIBERATELY used senses for contact to generate vedana. In which case, salayatana, samphassa, samphassa-jā-vēdanā runs In second cycle.

      I think this second cycle INCREASES (AND FERMENTS) the already existing anusuya.

      So, To stop this both cycles,
      Yoniso manasikara should be cultivated and as you recommended somewhere recently, indriya Bhāvanā, decreasing the indulgence in sensual pleasures, IN ADDITION, restricting senses to not initiate the second cycle, right?

      True or no?

      Also, we highly value the rupa providing sukha vedana, yet, all vēdanā are Aniccā due to them being conditional this is their drawback right?

      So, by default, we value sukha, avoid dukha, yet, dukha doesn’t stop, sukha doesn’t stay.

      This is problem, right, with all experiences which arises based on conditionality?

    • #40051
      LayDhammaFollower
      Participant

      Lal, Can you also share your understanding about what other ways are there for removing tanha?

      Removal of tanha too is subject to casuality,
      So what causes leads to decrease in and removal of tanha?

    • #40052
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. Exactly!

      You wrote: “Yoniso manasikara should be cultivated..”

      I am not sure whether I have explained this in detail, but cultivating yoniso manasikara REQUIRES comprehending Paticca Samuppada, i.e., how various bhava (and jati) arise CORRESPONDING to the types of abhisankhara cultivated.
      – Greedy abhisankhara lead to peta (preta) bhava, hateful abhisankhara lead to niraya bhava, etc.

    • #40053
      LayDhammaFollower
      Participant

      You have explained yoniso manasikara previously lal.

      But, if you have learnt more details, I request you to please share your learning for benifit of all readers.

      Also, Lal, are two ways in which tanha arises as per my understanding, is that correct in first post of this thread?

    • #40054
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. Nothing wrong with what you wrote.
      – But always, one can go into details.

      1. When an arammana comes in, whether one attaches (tanha) to it depends on one’s set of anusaya, one’s gati at that moment, and the strength of the arammana (e.g., how beautiful a person that you are seeing, how much liking you have for a certain food).

      2. One’s gati keep changing, especially due to the environment (family, friends, etc.). Based on that, anusaya will evolve too.
      – Details (specific types) of anusaya will evolve from life to life. But the main categories will not be removed until the corresponding stage of magga phala is attained.
      – Only an Arahant would not have any anusaya, gati, samyojana, etc. They will not attach (tanha) to any arammana.

      3. To dig deeper:
      Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna
      Search Results for: gati anusaya

    • #40058
      LayDhammaFollower
      Participant

      Lal, there is this riddle which I don’t understand, can you explain what is solution or what it wrong with this question;

      —-

      When one has anusuya then,

      One cannot stop tanha if one has vedana which can trigger anusuya,
      One cannot stop vipaka vēdanā if one has phassa,
      One cannot stop phassa if one has indriya,
      One cannot stop indriya if one has jati,
      One cannot stop jati if one has Bhavā,
      One cannot stop bhava if one has upādāna,
      One cannot stop upādāna if one has tanha,
      One cannot stop tanha if one has vipakā vedana.

      What is solution here?

    • #40059
      Lal
      Keymaster

      There is no riddle.

      The stopping of that cycle happens by stopping “avijja paccaya (abhi)sankhara.”
      – Avijja is removed via comprehending Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppaada/Tilakkhana.
      – Of course, one has to be mindful at all times (Anapana/Satipatthana), too: “Indriyabhāvanā Sutta (MN 152)

    • #40060
      LayDhammaFollower
      Participant

      Understood, lal. Thank you.

      I opened MN152,

      At one place it says that one who is in training is,

      “They are horrified, repelled, and disgusted by that.”
      “So tena uppannena manāpena uppannena amanāpena uppannena manāpāmanāpena aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati.”

      Disgusted by liking, disliking and both,

      My question is why?

      Why would trainee be horrified, repelled?

    • #40063
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. These translations could be confusing because they don’t provide context. They mechanically translate suttas without understanding.

      The point is clarified in the “Girimānanda Sutta (AN 10.60)” which lists 10 types of saññā where I linked.

      Anicca saññā, anatta saññā, asubha saññā, ādīnava saññā, pahāna saññā, virāga saññā, nirodha saññā, sabbaloke anabhirata saññā, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchā saññā, ānāpānassati.”

      That verse needs to be explained in great detail. Here “trainee” or “sekha” is one on the Noble Path, i.e., Sotapanna Anugami through Arahant Anugami.

      1. Why are there two types of anicca saññā?
      – First, everyone (even non-trainees or average people) can cultivate anicca saññā at the level of abhisankhara.
      – When a trainee gets close to the Arahant stage, that is when they can see the anicca nature of ALL sankhara, that is “sabba saṅkhāresu anicchā saññā, i.e., anicca nature of “all saṅkhāra.”
      – See #1 of “Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”)” for an explanation of ” aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati.”
      – That phrase comes later in the sutta at this link: “Girimānanda Sutta (AN 10.60)

      2. Also note: Right after that, is the tenth term “ānāpānassati.”
      – If you keep reading, you can see that all types of “meditations” to be cultivated with ānāpānassati. Of course, Satipatthana is equivalent to Anapanasati.
      – That should convince anyone that ānāpānassati is not “breath meditation”. That is an insult to the Buddha!
      – At some point I will write a post showing how close Satipatthana is to Anapanasati. If one takes the time to read the two relevant suttas, that should become obvious. No need even to write a post!

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