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Yes. The initial description is very good.
“The manasikāra cetasika are in each and every citta, and they are to incorporate all past memories.”
– That is correct too.“This makes complete sense for a manodvara citta vithi since the mana indriya is active during that time. What I’m not clear on is how the manasikara cetasika in a pancadvara citta vithi operates:
The mind can only process one citta vithi at a time. That means while the first 17 citta (pancadvara) arise, the mana indriya should not be able to make contact with the mind.”
– Of course, this is where some clarification is needed.1. Pancadvara means “five doors.” These are doors to the external world.
– But it is ALWAYS the mind that experiences any arammana coming through any of those doors.
– For example, cakkhu vinnana is just one citta at the beginning of a cakkhudvara citta vithi. That citta, as well as 16 others cittas, are experienced by the mind.
– Thus, cakkhu vinnana just indicates “through which door” the experience (more correctly arammana) came in.2. The post “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs” describes this process starting with #2.
– All 17 cittas in even the pancadvara citta vithi arise in the mind.
– Then, #6, under the heading “The Simile of Tasting a Mango,” provides an analogy.3. Earlier you correctly stated, “When the mind comes in contact with a sense input (arammana), let’s say a sight, the image is received by the eye and then transferred to the visual cortex in the brain which processes it to a suitable rupa which, in turn, is then transferred to the mind.”
– However, that does not happen in “one shot.”
– The eyes/brain capture and analyze only a brief moment (about 10 ms, or one-hundredth of a second duration according to modern science). Thus, the first snapshot may only capture a blurry image of the object.
– It would take several such snapshots to accumulate until the mind can “comprehend/fully see) that object.
– Still it would take three manodvara citta vithi following a single pancadvara citta vithis to fully grasp a single snapshot; see #9.
– In other words, it takes four citta to fully process a single snapshot of the object captured by the eyes/brain.4. Also, note that the mind processes those citta vithi VERY fast, compared to the time taken by the brain to process a single snapshot.
– The brain takes about 10 ms, or one-hundredth of a second, as I mentioned above. When that “information packet” comes to the mind (via cakkhu pasada rupa), the mind processes that within billionth (one-billionth) of a second.
– Thus, if we assume the time taken for the mind to process the four citta vithi to be 1 unit, the time taken by the brain to compile that “data packet/snapshot” would be ten million units!
– That shows how slow the brain is compared to the mind.5. Anyway, so the mind accumulates several such snapshots. The manasikara cetasika “keeps track” of those previous snapshots and helps the mind get the “full picture.”
– Of course, all that happens within less than a second.
– Only a Buddha can see such details!6. The situation is even more complex because other sensory inputs could be coming through the other “doors.”
– But the mind can “sort them out into the correct categories” with the help of the manasikara and cetana cetasika.7. I have tried to provide further details in the following two sections:
“Essential Abhidhamma – The Basics”
“Our Two Worlds – Rupa Loka and Nāma Loka”
– It will take some effort to go through them. Some posts may be more relevant than others. So, it would be a good idea to print them and organize them. Each person understands things differently.Of course, feel free to ask more questions from those posts. You are on the right track!
I have rewritten that post to address your questions. Especially see #6 and the links there.
– A key point is that cuti-patisandhi takes place in a citta vithi that starts with an arammana coming to mind. Thus the starting point in PS is “vedana paccaya tanha.” As we have discussed, that is “samphassa-ja-vedana paccaya tanha” in the niddesa version of PS.
– A patisandhi is grasped only if one generates “samphassa-ja-vedana.”Please feel free to ask more questions. This is a bit complex subject.
I have re-written the post “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean” including the figure of Dosakkhayo.
– I have expanded the previous post; hopefully it will help clarify more issues.
– Much merits to Dosakkhayo for the figure!“I’d like to hear “what Dhamma explains about how we can know that time flows in one direction, from the past to the future.” This question has not been solved yet.”
Well. There are so many “unanswered questions.”
– If we spend our time solving “unanswered questions,” we will not have time to stop future suffering.It is informative to read the “Cūḷamālukya Sutta (MN 63).”
– The Buddha clearly stated that spending time on such issues is a waste of time.
– What benefit is to learning about those issues?P.S. Such issues are not discussed in Abhidhamma if that is what you need to know.
There is a discrepancy ONLY IF one assumes what you mentioned about “heat death” is correct.
We cannot try to reconcile Buddha Dhamma with concepts in science, which are ONLY theories.
– Of course, not all scientific theories are wrong.No. Arupavacara Brahmas just have the hadaya vatthu. Just one suddhāṭṭhaka!
A suddhāṭṭhaka is at the boundary between “(kammmic) energy” and “tangible rupa.”
– Kammic energy = kamma bija = dhammā
– Dhammā are the anidassana, appatigha rupa below the suddhāṭṭhaka stage that make contact with the mind via:
“manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjāti manoviññāṇaṃ.”
– Hadaya vatthu is the seat of mind (mana.)
– See “Chachakka Sutta – Six Types of Vipāka Viññāna”It is not possible to write all this in a single post. So, it is good to have a discussion to clear any unresolved issues.
Thank you, Seng Kiat, for displaying Dosakkhayo’s chart. It is good to see it there.
1. By the way, only a Buddha can see the INITIAL manomaya kaya of gandhabba. Even yogis with the highest abhinna powers cannot see that.
– But once born, a gandhabba may “grow” a bit by absorbing scents from flowers, etc. (Thus the name “gandha + abba” or “taking in scents.”) Then even some average humans with punna iddhi may be able to see one.2. However, an arupavacara Brahma remains with that manomaya kaya of just a hadaya vatthu. Thus no one else but a Buddha can see those arupavacara Brahmas.
– Thus, ancient yogis (including Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta) thought getting to the arupavacara realms would end the rebirth process.
– That is also why those realms are labeled “arupa” or “without rupa.” Only after the Buddha was it realized that those “fine rupa” of the arupavacara Brahmas are there. Thus, in a way, “arupavacara” is not strictly correct.First part:
Yes. I mixed up the two suttas. Corrected it. Thank you!
Second part:
Yes. Both explanations hold.
– Attachment to them sustain the rebirth process. Losing attachment to them (with the correct seeing of the true nature) leads to stopping their arising, i.e., Nibbana.Third part:
Yes. The Buddha described “loka” in several ways: six dhatu, five aggregates, 12 ayatana, etc.
No errors. Very good. This is real insight mediation!
Dosakkhayo has finalized the drawing/chart on the progression of invisible rupa (dhammā) generated in our minds (in javana citta) due to gati to condensed stages.
The progression is: gati > dhammā > suddhāṭṭhaka (bhuta) > mahā bhuta > dhātu (finer) > dhātu (dense)I am very happy to see his level of understanding. Also, much merits to him for making this chart available to all.
– The chart gives a good visualization of how “small” suddhāṭṭhaka is. It is just bit “denser” than gati/dhammā
– Our mental body (gandhabba) is just six suddhāṭṭhaka (hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa.) On the other hand, our physical body is at the highest density (many pounds/kg.) The more important one is of course the mental body (gandhabba.)
“Dosakkhayo’s chart (PDF) Download”
The post that discusses this: “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka”
Tobias wrote: “Dukkha is “actual suffering” (physical pain and mental suffering) and the “danger of suffering” in the future (dukkhaṁ bhayaṭṭhena).”
Just before that, you wrote: “Finally all dukkha is based on previous sankhara and therefore all dukkha would be sankhara dukkha.”
The more recent statement is better. That is the explanation given in Nettipakarana (one of the three Tipitaka commentaries) that you asked the first question about.
In my answer to that question, I translated that verse:
Suffering is three-fold: Dukkha dukkhatā, saṅkhāra dukkhatā, vipariṇāma dukkhatā.
– From those three, “the great danger” is “saṅkhāra dukkhatā.”
– That is because the rebirth process is maintained by saṅkhāra generation (via “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.”) Thus, once overcoming the saṅkhāra dukkhatā the other two are also removed, and one will get to Nibbāna (Saṅkhāradukkhatāya pana loko anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā muccati,)It is better to say, “all types of dukkha EXPERIENCED would be DUE TO (abhi)sankhara.”
The First Noble Truth explains three types of suffering (dukkha): Dukkha dukkhatā, saṅkhāra dukkhatā, vipariṇāma dukkhatā.
– Here, engaging in saṅkhāra also makes one suffer even at the time of engaging in saṅkhāra generation (for example, working hard to get a good job or a promotion.)The First Noble Truth also explains the cause of all three types of suffering to be encountered in the future.
– That is engaging in saṅkhāra. That is the main part of saṅkhāra dukkhatā.Let me put it in another way.
– Rebirth process with all three types of suffering arises from “avijja paccaya (abhi)sankhara,” i.e., due to saṅkhāra dukkhatā.The point is that Noble Truths on Suffering are NOT merely about the suffering experienced now. It is MOSTLY about future suffering and how that arises and how it can be stopped.
– Future suffering arises BECAUSE we get attached to “sukha-generating things” with abhisankhara. Thus “the great danger.”I revised an old post on the subject: “Is Suffering the Same as the First Noble Truth on Suffering?“
Yes. You are right.
See #1 of “Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”)” for an explanation of ” aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati.”
Yes. These translations could be confusing because they don’t provide context. They mechanically translate suttas without understanding.
The point is clarified in the “Girimānanda Sutta (AN 10.60)” which lists 10 types of saññā where I linked.
“Anicca saññā, anatta saññā, asubha saññā, ādīnava saññā, pahāna saññā, virāga saññā, nirodha saññā, sabbaloke anabhirata saññā, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchā saññā, ānāpānassati.”
That verse needs to be explained in great detail. Here “trainee” or “sekha” is one on the Noble Path, i.e., Sotapanna Anugami through Arahant Anugami.
1. Why are there two types of anicca saññā?
– First, everyone (even non-trainees or average people) can cultivate anicca saññā at the level of abhisankhara.
– When a trainee gets close to the Arahant stage, that is when they can see the anicca nature of ALL sankhara, that is “sabba saṅkhāresu anicchā saññā, i.e., anicca nature of “all saṅkhāra.”
– See #1 of “Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”)” for an explanation of ” aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati.”
– That phrase comes later in the sutta at this link: “Girimānanda Sutta (AN 10.60)”2. Also note: Right after that, is the tenth term “ānāpānassati.”
– If you keep reading, you can see that all types of “meditations” to be cultivated with ānāpānassati. Of course, Satipatthana is equivalent to Anapanasati.
– That should convince anyone that ānāpānassati is not “breath meditation”. That is an insult to the Buddha!
– At some point I will write a post showing how close Satipatthana is to Anapanasati. If one takes the time to read the two relevant suttas, that should become obvious. No need even to write a post!There is no riddle.
The stopping of that cycle happens by stopping “avijja paccaya (abhi)sankhara.”
– Avijja is removed via comprehending Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppaada/Tilakkhana.
– Of course, one has to be mindful at all times (Anapana/Satipatthana), too: “Indriyabhāvanā Sutta (MN 152)“Yes. Nothing wrong with what you wrote.
– But always, one can go into details.1. When an arammana comes in, whether one attaches (tanha) to it depends on one’s set of anusaya, one’s gati at that moment, and the strength of the arammana (e.g., how beautiful a person that you are seeing, how much liking you have for a certain food).
2. One’s gati keep changing, especially due to the environment (family, friends, etc.). Based on that, anusaya will evolve too.
– Details (specific types) of anusaya will evolve from life to life. But the main categories will not be removed until the corresponding stage of magga phala is attained.
– Only an Arahant would not have any anusaya, gati, samyojana, etc. They will not attach (tanha) to any arammana.3. To dig deeper:
“Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna”
“Search Results for: gati anusaya“
