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– “I want to take the time and make sure to get the facts right as much as possible (e.g., references from the Tipitaka.)”
I feel the same way, currently I’m motivated regarding this matter and would like to have or come to some kind of a satisfactory answer really for myself and others that interested in this matter. Recently I tried to explain to myself what “Kāma Guṇa” is and then I started to realize what I have understood or believed about “Kāma Guṇa” wasn’t self consistent and felt that my knowledge and understanding about “Kāma Guṇa” had gaps of understanding. I’m really grateful to be able to come across liked minded people like here on Puredhamma where I can utilize and borrow other’s experiences and intelligence / wisdom to help me discern any misunderstandings that I might have in regards to the dhamma and the sharing of dhamma that can help me to further progress on the Noble 8 Fold Path.
– “I found some suttas that say an Arahant has removed all “Kāma Guṇa” from the mind”.
Thanks for bringing that up! That really helps.I have been investigating into what exactly “Kāma Guṇa” is and currently trying to piece together all the information that I have recently learned from this thread, as well from what I have looked into and contemplated on. There’s a question that I would like to ask for feedback and confirmation to make sure what I’m starting to think and believe about the teaching on “Kāma Guṇa” is in the right direction or is the appropriate understanding.(A) My question is, are there any sense objects rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā “by itself” (without the mind or citta) that can definitely be said to have the “inherent / intrinsic” qualities or characteristics of “iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā” or that’s “agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, and leading to desire?”
From what I have contemplated over and over again for the last 2 days on this questions is that “no” there isn’t any such sense objects “by itself” that has the “inherent / intrinsic” qualities or characteristics of “iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā” or “agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, and leading to desire”.My believe now is that iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā is based on that living being conditions of the body and mind at that time / moment and when one’s gati, anusaya’s, asava’s, kilesa’s makes phassa (contact) with the 5 sense objects. It’s “not” the 5 sense objects “by itself” that is agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, and leading to desire. It’s one’s gati / kilesa’s that makes 5 sense objects agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, and leading to desire.To me, this would fall inline with what Lal and Lang have brought up: “However, as you stated, “Kāma Guṇa” definitely refers to attachment.”I have been playing around with the name Kāma Guṇa and what I have thought of is qualities or characteristics (guna) leading to Kāma. The qualities or characteristics of cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā or from one of the other 4 sense objects leads to Kāma.(B) Would it be appropriate to say that Kāma Guṇa is more associated with tanha, while Kāma or kāmā, kāmehi is more associated with upadana?“Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. …”I got this translation of Suttacentral and I find the word “known” in the translation to be quite helpful for myself. When I look up the definition of “known”, I get “used to refer to something or someone that is familiar to or understood by people“How this could be potentially helpful to me is that when I apply the definition for “known”;“Sights that are familiar or understood by the eye as likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.”What this “known as”, “familiar with” or “understood” as likeable desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing by the eyes” is relating to our kilesa’s or the teaching of Anuseti.My understanding of the Buddha dhamma is that us as Buddhist practitioners should “know”, “be familiar with”, “understand” what “Kāma Guṇa” is (or when one becomes attached) and that it isn’t something that should be (upadana) liked or desired for.Last night, I came across a sutta where it mentions the Noble 8 Fold Path is for giving up Kāma Guṇa.From the parallel: “The Buddha taught the eightfold path in order to give up the 5 kinds of sensual stimulation“
“Imesaṁ kho, uttiya, pañcannaṁ kāmaguṇānaṁ pahānāya ayaṁ ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvetabbo”ti.“This is the noble eightfold path that should be developed to give up these five kinds of sensual stimulation.”1 user thanked author for this post.
From post Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā)
Vedanā Due to Kāma Guṇa Are Not “samphassa-jā-vedanā“
5. However, this sōmanassa vēdanā that arises due to kāma guṇa are NOT the “samphassa-jā-vēdanā.” Somanassa vēdanā due to kāma guṇa arises in an Arahant, as well as in an average human.
- Let us clarify with some examples. Sugar or honey has a “kāma guna” of sweetness. That holds for everyone, from an average person to an Arahant. A beautiful woman will be seen as such by anyone from an ordinary person to an Arahant.
Is revision needed since Kāma Guṇa doesn’t arise in an Arahant?
As well if Kāma Guṇa doesn’t arise in an Arahant, than Sāmisa Vedanā doesn’t arise in an Arahant as well?
From the same post Kāma Guṇa – Origin of attachment (Tanha)
Vedanā Due to Kāma Guṇa Are Sāmisa Vedanā
6. There is a unique name for those “automatically-arising” vēdanā due to kāma guna. They are sāmisa vēdanā.
- The word sāmisa has origins in the keyword “āmisa,” which means “associated with the sensual world” or “kāma lōka.” Thus, sāmisa sukha vēdanā means a “pleasant feeling” that arises due to the nature of the kāma lōka.
- An Arahant, as well as an average human, will experience similar “sāmisa vēdanā.” Any sensory event of kāma lōka is a sāmisa vēdanā.
Greetings Gad, may the Buddha dhamma, Dhammā here and out there help us all living beings to attain the supreme bliss of nibbana.
While I continued to investigate into this matter, I came across this.Page 146 (not scanned page) The comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma:“Though it may seem that pleasure and pain also accompany the other four kinds of sense consciousness, the Abhidhamma maintains that the immediate moment of sense consciousness in these cases is necessarily accompanied by neutral feeling. In the javana phase belonging to the same cognitive process as the moment of sense consciousness, and in subsequent mind-door processes taking the same object, mental pleasure (that is, somanassa or joy) may arise towards an agreeable sight, sound, smell, or taste; mental pain (that is, domanassa or displeasure) may arise towards a disagreeable sight, etc.; and equanimity or neutral feeling (upekkha) may arise towards an object regarded with indifference or detachment. These, however, are mental feelings rather than physical feelings, and they arise subsequent to the moment of bare sense consciousness rather than in immediate association with the bare sense consciousness. As they occur in the javana phase, these feelings are associated with wholesome or unwholesome consciousness, or — in the case of the joy and equanimity experienced by Arahants — with functional consciousness.Initially I was thinking that domanassa could arise in Arahants due to Kāma Guṇa, but after reviewing some Abhidhamma I’m starting to believe that domanassa doesn’t arise in an Arahant or the Buddha even if it’s due to Kāma Guṇa. My current understanding is that domanassa is only associated with dosa as a root (dosamulacittani). The Buddha and Arahants have eradicated all kilesa, that should mean there’s no dosamula citta’s which then domanassa doesn’t arise. Unless domanassa can arises in other ways besides from being rooted in the dosamula citta’s?I just thought of this, but would Kāma Guṇa and pancakkhandha be associated? If so then it seems like Kāma or Kāmā or kāmehicould be associated to panca upadanakkhandha, while Kāma Guṇa could be associated with pancakkhandha?Trying to gain a better understanding about Kāma Guṇa, I thought of taking an Abhidhamma approach and used Bhikkhu Bodhi’s the comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma. On page 69 (not the scanned page) it mentions about wholesome result rootless consciousness kusalavipakaahetukacittani.“Seven of these types of consciousness correspond to the unwholesome-resultants. But whereas the unwholesome-resultants arise in regard to an undesirable object, the wholesome-resultants arise in regard to an object that is desirable (ittha) or extremely desirable (ati-ittha). The first four sense consciousness here, like their counterparts, are associated with equanimity, that is, neutral feeling; but the impact of the object on the body being strong, the feeling associated with wholesome-resultant body-consciousness is that of bodily pleasure (sukha).The rootless wholesome-resultants include one type of consciousness without a counterpart among the unwholesome-resultants. This is the investigating consciousness accompanied by joy (somanassa). Whereas the investigating consciousness resulting from unwholesome kamma is always accompanied by neutral feeling, that resulting from wholesome kamma is twofold: one accompanied by neutral feeling, arisen in regard to a moderately desirable object, and one accompanied by joy, which arises when the object is especially desirable”.Is there a connection between kusalavipakaahetukacittani and Kāma Guṇa?
It’s interesting to me seeing the Pali word “iṭṭhā” which arise in regards to an object that is desirable”. I notice that “iṭṭhā” also shows up as a description for Kāma Guṇa.
“Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā.” Katame pañca?
Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā,
Can rupa raga also mean that one has raga for dhammā? Like the “bearing” of jhana’s.
Or for an Anagami besides raga for the Buddha dhamma, also has raga for dhammā? Like the “bearing” / “experiencing” of the Buddha dhamma.
– “P.S. “Rupa raga” includes jhanic sukha, but is not restricted to that; “attachment to Dhamma” is also included in rupa raga”
Thank you !!! I was actually considering / thinking of that.
Could rupa raga also mean raga for niramisa sukha?
It’s taught that Anagami still has rupa raga and arupa rage, if someone didn’t cultivate jhana’s and they attained the anagami stage. Besides raga for jhanic states, are there other ways of understanding what rupa raga is or for an anagami besides raga for jhanic states, are there other rupa raga an anagami might have? I tried searching the site, but not able to find much information relating to anagami and rupa raga.
Okay, at a later time when you have a better idea about your work developments or what you have decided on let me know then.
I’m hoping others can also make the trip! and thank you Lal for the recommendation.
I brought this up because was hoping some of the forum members here might make a trip to Sri Lanka this year. I was already planning on to be flexible and open to the different dates of travel to Sri Lanka if that allows me to meet up with the other forum members. Personally I wanted go anytime after September and as soon as I can, so my date is not exactly set. If LDF, Jorg and his friend would like to meet up, I can arrange my schedule to / in Sri Lanka to meet up.
As well Jorg and LDF, if we do end up meeting in Sri Lanka and our planning / timing works out, you’re free to join me and possibly some Thero’s to the Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi and other sacred sites around the area. I heard it would take about 3 days to travel “comfortably” around the area to the other sacred sites. Comfortably meaning not rushing during the travel and having time to meditate around the sites or hoping to anyways. . .
Btw Jorg, how long do you plan to stay in Sri Lanka for? For me, it’ll be about 3 weeks.
For the past day or so I have been trying to figure out or see if there’s any difference in meaning between the words kāma & kāmā when used in the sutta’s. From reading and learning from the PD posts, I understand that kāma & kāmā would mean the same thing, the desiring and relishing of the 5 sense objects or kama assada, sankappa raga and so on.Taking that to the test on the sutta’s, I initially thought there might’ve been a different meaning assigned to kāmā in the sutta’s. Because in Pali dictionary or a search online, it would bring up a singular and plural definition.
1. (mostly in sg.) wish, desire, pleasure;
2. (in pl.) the objects of sensual pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba,I’ve taken kāmā the plural form meaning as the objects of sensual pleasures and applied it to some sutta’s, but don’t always end up with a consistent interpretation or explanation. While using the interpretation of the desiring and relishing of the 5 sense objects or kama assada for whenever the words kāma & kāmā is used showed more of a consistent interpretation / translation.What I have learned and realized for myself through investigating is that kāma & kāmā, the singular and plural meaning giving by dictionaries and by combining both together actually gives the definition / meaning for kāma & kāmā!And that is in singular form: wish, desire, pleasure for (in plural form) the objects of sensual pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba.Or the wishing, desiring, relishing (sankappa raga) for the 5 sense objects which is rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba.But regardless of Pali grammar play, I believe I just came across a Pali source that states what “kāmā” is or I believe anyways. Basically it’s what’s been taught in some PD posts here, sankappa raga, kama raga and others.“Vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehī”ti tattha katame kāmā? Chando kāmo, rāgo kāmo, chandarāgo kāmo, saṅkappo kāmo, rāgo kāmo, saṅkapparāgo kāmo—ime vuccanti “kāmā”.Is kāmā the plural word of “kāma”?
I understand “kāma” to be sankappa raga, but not exactly sure what kāmā would exactly mean.
Do they mean the exact same thing or “kāmā” can also have different meanings?
– What are some hugely meritorious activities we can do every day for the purpose of creating a conducive environment for Nibbāna?In addition to what was mentioned, if I have understood this correctly, I believe contemplating on anicca is the highest meritorious activity that we can do in our every day life.I don’t really know much or would like to comment too much on this topic, but thought of sharing an observation / comment.– “The Maha Bodhi Tree is the most exceptional tree in the entire existence”.– “You will be surprised but the original Bodhi Tree is not in India. It is actually in Anuradhapura, Sri Lanka”– “The real Bodhi Tree CAN NOT be destroyed by anything or anyone in the universe because it is the focal point of the Pure Immeasurable Buddha Energy.”If the real Bodhi Tree cannot be destroyed by anything or anyone in the universe, then the current or previous Bodhi tree located in Mahabodhi Temple in India cannot be the real Bodhi tree. Because it’s mentioned:“The original tree under which Siddhartha Gautama sat is no longer living. It was destroyed by a storm in the 6th century AD. However, a descendant of the original tree was planted in its place, and this tree is still alive today. It is located in the Mahabodhi Temple in Bodh Gaya, India, and it is a major pilgrimage site for Buddhists from all over the world.”How can the real Bodhi tree be destroyed by a storm even when Mara and his army cannot even come close to it? This doesn’t make any sense.If the original Bodhi Tree is actually in Anuradhapura, how do we reconcile with the materials that says / mentions the Bodhi Tree in Anuradhapura was brought over by Sangamitta Maha Theri from India?Since this issue or the question I brought up isn’t the most critical on the path. Currently I’m not really seeking an satisfactory answer, but just thought I would share my observation or comment.1 user thanked author for this post.
– “Four vipallasa (nicca, sukha, atta, subha) and three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta.) There should be no confusion”.Thank you for the clarification, that was helpful for me.– If all vipallasa about anicca/anatta are removed, what is left to do?”That’s the thing, it’s my belief that only the Buddha and Arahants understanding of the Noble 8 Fold Path, Tilakkhana, and other teachings are truly said to be “complete and have nothing left to do”, especially relating to the Tilakkhana.I should mention that I’m not disagreeing with the teaching on Sotapanna’s having all anicca/anatta vipallasa removed.But does this mean that Sotapanna’s understanding of anicca/anatta is completed and that they have understood / know everything about anicca / anatta?Maybe it’s like some of the comments mentioned?– “Sottapana are supposed to have realised the Aniccā/Anattā completely YET, they haven’t applied it to their life completely?”
– “Maybe they haven’t realised how Aniccā/Anattā nature of all objects in world ALWAYS leads to dukkhā?”
It’s probably my problem that I can’t truly believe in Sotapanna’s understanding of anicca / anatta “couldn’t be improved upon”.It’s also possible that I might not have been clear on what I meant by “couldn’t be improved upon”.One of the ways I thought of to explain what “couldn’t be improved upon” means. Is that from the first time the sotapanna believed in that they are sotapanna’s and as time goes on, their practice, understanding of the dhamma deepens or is progressing on the path. Their understanding / seeing of anicca/anatta would remain the same? There would be no improvements? No differences?Since I’m not disagreeing with the teaching, yet not able to fully accept that Sotapanna’s understanding of Anicca / Anatta wouldn’t improve as they’re progressing on the Noble 8 Fold Path.I also have this question:– “The question is, what exactly is missing in terms of understanding?”– (A)”Is there a lack of panna in general Or (B) is there only a lack of panna regarding dukkha and asubha”?I believe it would be both A&B. If one is lacking in panna in general, wouldn’t that also affect one’s lack of panna regarding dukkha and asubha?What about anicca / anatta? Would lacking in panna also affect one’s understanding of anicca / anatta?It’s my belief that a Sotapanna understanding / seeing of anicca / anatta would improve as their progressing on the Noble 8 Fold Path.If Venerable Waharaka Thero was alive, I would’ve liked to ask him if he’s understanding of anicca / anatta have gotten better or improved from the time he first started believing he was a Sotapanna to where he is today (at a later time). Unfortunately for us, fortunately he is no longer here, but hopefully I can ask this question to Lal and to others on here.One doesn’t need to comment or answer to this question if one choose not to. What I would like to ask Lal and others that are at least Sotapanna’s is that from the first time they started to believe in that they are Sotapanna’s to where they are today. Have their been any differences / improvements / or has remained the same with their understanding and practice of anicca / anatta?
