[dosakkhayo]

Namagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)

In #2
“Manō lōka is devoid of material things; it is all “nāma” and no matter.”

But, I’ve learned that viññāṇa dhātu is composed of rūpa that is below the suddhāṭṭhaka stage.

So I was confused about the criterion for dividing rūpalōka and nāmalōka.

I think the suddhāṭṭhaka is the dividing line between these.

Therefore, rūpa is a broader concept than I previously thought. It is a concept that includes nāma. Right?

Although the problem was solved while writing this, I think adding this point to the post would be better.

If my understanding has a flaw, please let me know to fix it. Thank you.

[Lal]

1. The only “rupas” (at or above the hadaya vatthu/suddhatthaka stage) in mano loka are the hadaya vatthus of the arupavacara Brahmas.
– A hadaya vatthu is right at the suddhāṭṭhaka stage.
– It cannot be seen by anyone but a Buddha.

2. Ancient yogis were able to “see” rupavacara Brahmas. But they could not see arupavacara Brahmas.
– That is why the term “arupavacara” came to use.
– Of course, there are no other rupas at or above the suddhāṭṭhaka stage in the arupavacara realms.

3. Hadaya vatthu of arupavacara Brahmas do not belong to viññāṇa dhātu.
– Only dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka AND namagotta (memory records) belong to viññāṇa dhātu.

[dosakkhayo]

Let me write down everything I understand first.

I know that dhammā(kamma viññāṇa) belongs to viññāṇa dhātu(or nāmalōka) and also is rūpa. Further, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa belong to viññāṇa dhātu but aren’t rūpa too.

I know that vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha are preserved permanently in nāmalōka, but rūpakkhanda are not. And I don’t know why rūpakkhanda can not be preserved even though it is mental. (I wonder why this is.)

Lal said: “Only dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka AND namagotta (memory records) belong to viññāṇa dhātu.”

Okay. So everything I wrote above(except rūpakkhanda) belongs to one of these two categories(“dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka” and “namagotta”). Right? Did I miss anything?

[Lal]

You wrote: “Okay. So everything I wrote above(except rūpakkhanda) belongs to one of these two categories(“dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka” and “namagotta”). Right? Did I miss anything?”

Yes. Everything you wrote was correct. Very good. You have a good understanding.

You wrote: “I know that vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha are preserved permanently in nāmalōka, but rūpakkhanda are not. And I don’t know why rūpakkhanda can not be preserved even though it is mental. (I wonder why this is.).”

That is an excellent question.
1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record, without any energy.

2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.
– namagotta CAN NOT come back on their own. If we want to recall something, we must try to recall that particular memory. That requires a bit more explanation. I will try to explain it as simply as possible because it is important to understand.

3. How do we recall memories?
– When we try to recall a past event, the mind SENDS OUT a request to nāmalōka or viññāṇa dhātu.
– Depending on the strength of that “signal” sent out, it MAY reflect that particular memory back to the mind. If the strength is enough, it is captured by the mind via “mananca paticca dhammeca uppajjati mano vinnanam.” Thus, it comes back as a dhammā because it gained energy from the signal that the mind sent out.
– Let me give an analogy.

Suppose we enter a dark room in a dark house with a chair sitting in a corner. We cannot see the chair or anything else in that room. That is the analogy of a namagotta that we are trying to recall.
– Now, if we had a flashlight, we could turn it on and direct it to the chair. Now, that light will bounce back from the chair, and we will be able to see it.
– That light beam from the flashlight is analogous to the “mind signal” sent out to nāmalōka in #3 above.

Suppose we enter the same dark room where a small lighted candle is sitting in a corner.
– We can see that lighted candle without the aid of a flashlight.
– Light from the candle itself is enough for us to see it.
– That lighted candle is like dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own (see #2)

I hope that analogy can explain the difference between namagotta and dhammā.
– Let me know if anyone has questions.
– I am glad that Dosakkhayo asked this question. It is good to understand that detail.

1 user thanked author for this post.

DanielSt

[dosakkhayo]

Ok. The key point is whether the information has energy or not. So the active(with energy) information in nāmalōka belongs to dhammā category, and inactive information belongs namagotta category. Therefore, information of namagotta can not be imported into the mind itself but can be loaded when the mind activates it. On the other hand, information of dhammā can be imported into the mind itself, and also loaded when the mind activates it. Right?

[Lal]

The following sentences edited 9/25/22: That is not entirely correct. that was due to a mistake I made. The correct way to say it is as follows: Namagotta or memory records include both records with and without kammic energy. Each sensory experience and our response to them are included in namagotta (all vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana associated with every experience AND response). Some of them embed kammic energy when ABHISANKHARA was involved, i.e., when KAMMA VINNANA was involved. Those latter kind are namagotta with energy, i.e., dhammā. I later explained it in my next post below.

1. Furthermore, the ability to “activate” (and, thus, recall) specific parts of namagotta depends on the mind.
– Those who cultivate higher jhanas and develop abhinna powers can recall many past lives, for example. In the earlier analogy, this corresponds to having a “stronger flashlight.”
– A Buddha can recall as many past lives as he wishes.

2. Some average people can recall events in their current lives in great detail.
– See “Search Results for: HSAM”
– This is a very interesting subject. It is also an informative subject where one can gain insight.

[dosakkhayo]

Thank you for the confirmation. Also, I read about HSAM. This seems to be a very helpful example of understanding namaloka.

[Lal]

I thought about this issue some more.
– The situation becomes even clearer if we put it in the following way.

1. At the first level, nāmagotta are the four “nāma” aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.

2. One part of nāmagotta is associated with vipāka viññāṇa. They don’t have kammic energies. They are “memory records” without any associated energy.
– The other part of nāmagotta is associated with kamma viññāṇa. Those are dhammā that can bring vipāka. They also belong to “memory records” but have associated kammic energies and can bring vipāka on their own.

3. Thus, regardless of whether they have associated kammic energies or not, all of viññāṇakkhandha contribute to nāmagotta.

4. If anyone has questions/comments, please post. The more we discuss, the clearer it becomes.
– Some may not have thought about such details.
– Of course, one can get to the Sotapanna stage without getting into such details. The critical part is to realize this world’s unfruitful/dangerous nature (in the rebirth process.)

[dosakkhayo]

“– The other part of nāmagotta is associated with kamma viññāṇa. Those are dhammā that can bring vipāka. They also belong to “memory records” but have associated kammic energies and can bring vipāka on their own.”

After hearing this statement, I wonder if I misunderstood it. When I wrote “So everything I wrote above(except rūpakkhanda) belongs to one of these two categories(“dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka” and “namagotta”).”, I thought that mano loka has two mutually exclusive categories.

However, hearing this, the two categories do not seem to be divided, but rather are a way to describe the state of information. So, these two categories overlap each other. Am I right?

[Lal]

I think it would be easier to think about it the following way.

1. Nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu) consists of the four mental aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.
– Part of it (associated with kamma viññāṇa) is “energized.” It has kammic energies created by kamma viññāṇa.
– The rest has no associated energy; those are only memory records.
– Now, we also need to realize that “memory records with kammic energy” keep losing kammic energy with time and get added to the part without energy.

2. In that sense, the two categories do not stay separated. There are two categories, but the “energized nāmagotta” keeps moving into the other category over time.
– But more “energized nāmagotta” are being created as one cultivates abhisankhara.
– Of course, even more “non-energized nāmagotta” are also being created as we live our lives. Each experience is added to nāmagotta.

[dosakkhayo]

Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha

“The Buddha defined rupa as ALL those that can provide a sensory experience (viññāna.) Therefore, dhammā that we experience with the mind are also a type of rupa.”

I am still looking for the key criterion to distinguish between nāma and rūpa. Why rūpakkhanda is not nāma? I am asking this question because rūpakkhanda was not mentioned.

Lal wrote in the forum:
“1. Nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu) consists of the four mental aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.”

And also wrote above:
“Rūpakkhanda (except for the paccuppanna or current moment) is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta.”

If I understand correctly, there are atita rūpakkhanda, anāgata rūpakkhanda, atita vedanakkhandha, paccuppanna vedanakkhandha, anāgata vedanakkhandha, atita saññākkhandha, paccuppanna saññākkhandha, anāgata saññākkhandha, atita saṅkhārakkhandha, paccuppanna saṅkhārakkhandha, anāgata saṅkhārakkhandha, atita viññāṇakkhandha, paccuppanna viññāṇakkhandha, and anāgata viññāṇakkhandha in nāmalōka as namagotta.

So only paccupanna r̄upakkhanda among the pañcakkhandha doesn’t belong here.

The post wrote: “It is essential to realize that rūpakkhandha is all mental. [……] rūpakkhandha are “mental impressions” of rūpa and NOT the rūpa out there.”

And lal wrote: “Rūpakkhanda (except for the paccuppanna or current moment) is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record, without any energy.”

I’d like to know why the paccuppanna rūpakkhanda excepted.

[dosakkhayo]

I pressed the wrong button while writing.

“The Buddha defined rupa as ALL those that can provide a sensory experience (viññāna.) Therefore, dhammā that we experience with the mind are also a type of rupa. [……] It is essential to realize that rūpakkhandha is all mental. [……] rūpakkhandha are “mental impressions” of rūpa and NOT the rūpa out there.”

I am still looking for the key criterion to distinguish between nāma and rūpa. Why rūpakkhanda is not nāma? I am asking this question because rūpakkhanda was not mentioned.

Lal wrote in the forum:
“1. Nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu) consists of the four mental aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.”

And also wrote above:
“Rūpakkhanda (except for the paccuppanna or current moment) is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record, without any energy.”

If I understand correctly, there are atita rūpakkhanda, anāgata rūpakkhanda, atita vedanakkhandha, paccuppanna vedanakkhandha, anāgata vedanakkhandha, atita saññākkhandha, paccuppanna saññākkhandha, anāgata saññākkhandha, atita saṅkhārakkhandha, paccuppanna saṅkhārakkhandha, anāgata saṅkhārakkhandha, atita viññāṇakkhandha, paccuppanna viññāṇakkhandha, and anāgata viññāṇakkhandha in nāmalōka as namagotta.

So only paccupanna r̄upakkhanda among the pañcakkhandha doesn’t belong here.

I’d like to know why the paccuppanna rūpakkhanda excepted.

[Lal]

“I’d like to know why the paccuppanna rūpakkhanda excepted.”
– Yes. That should not be excluded. It takes a fraction of a second for the “image of a rupa” to go through the mind, and it is instantly registered. I will delete that sentence tomorrow.

“I am still looking for the key criterion to distinguish between nāma and rūpa. Why rūpakkhanda is not nāma? I am asking this question because rūpakkhanda was not mentioned.”
– The mind can “see” rupakkhandha, i.e., it can “see” the shape, features, etc. of a rupa.
– For example, when we see a tree, the mind sees it with its trunk, branches, leaves, etc.
– However, only the “necessary ingredients (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) that can “re-create” that “image of the tree” is preserved in the namaloka as namagotta. When those ingredients are reflected back to the mind as “dhammā,” the mind can re-create the “image of the tree.” In other words, namagotta are NOT rupakkhandha.

The post, “Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha” could help figure it out.

[dosakkhayo]

Loka Sutta – Origin and Cessation of the World

“The rupakkhandha includes one’s sensory faculties and any “rupa” ever experienced.”

Ok. I have misunderstood the concept of rupakkhandha.

But I ask you a question to be sure.

In this context, sensory faculties mean ayatana. Right? Or include indriya too?

Dosakkhayo compiled the following figure:

[Lal]

Yes. It is a good figure showing the basic ideas. Thank you, Dosakkhayo!

A couple of comments on “rupa.”
1. “Sappatigha rupa” are those “can be contacted by the five physical sensory faculties.” Thus, they are “rupa rupa” (or vanna rupa), sadda rupa, gandha rupa, rasa rupa, and phottabba rupa.
– “Appatigha rupa” means those that the five physical sense faculties cannot make contact with. They are experienced directly by the mind (via mana indriya in the brain.) “Appatigha rupa” are the “dhammā” or “dhamma rupa.”

2. “Sappatigha rupa” are above the suddhatthaka stage.
– “Appatigha rupa” are below the suddhatthaka stage. They can be represented by various terminologies: kamma bija, kamma bhava, kammic energy, etc.

3. Each sensory event (with abhisankhara or without) is registered in the nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu)
– Only those associated with abhisankhara (i.e., with kammic energy) lead to “dhammā” or “dhamma rupa.”

4. “Sappatigha rupa” are located in specific places in world. A tree is in a specific place.
– On the other hand, “Appatigha rupa” does not have specific spatial locations. They are in the nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu) that pervades all space. Thus, “dhammā” can come to mind even if one is at the other end of the universe!

Dosakkhayo asked:
“In this context, sensory faculties mean ayatana. Right? Or include indriya too?”

Sensory faculties BECOME ayatana when used with lobha, dosa, or moha in mind.
– For example, eyes are used as indriya when one looks at a person to figure out who it is.
– But if one looks at a beautiful person with kama raga, one is using eyes as ayatana.
– Arahants never use their sensory faculties as ayatana, only as indriya.

[Lal]

A couple of posts with more information on the above issues:

“Anidassana, Appaṭigha Rupa Due to Anidassana Viññāṇa”

“Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna”
– Note: The difference between indriya and ayatana is not always specified. One needs to understand whether it is indriya or ayatana depending on the context.

[dosakkhayo]

Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa

Phassa (Contact) comes in the middle of the Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) process. However, PS processes start with “salāyatana paccayā phasso” or “an āyatana making contact.” That contact is between a rupa and one of the six āyatana (cakkhu, sota, gandha, jivhā, kāya, mano.) At the fundamental level, a rupa makes contact with the mind via one of the five pasāda rupa or directly with the mind (hadaya vatthu.)

–
Indriya and Āyatana – Big Difference

Another way to state the difference is to say that when kamma vipāka brings us sense inputs, the sense faculties act as indriya. Following that we MAY deliberately use sense faculties to generate new kamma; then they work as āyatana. […] 12. Thus only Arahants use their sense faculties as indriya ALL THE TIME.

–
Here is what I don’t understand. Life goes on after attaining Arahanthood. I know that Arahant still senses the world. So, there will be contact between a rupa and one of the six āyatana for Arahant too. But, as you said, “Arahants use their sense faculties as indriya ALL THE TIME”. I understand that the former context is somewhat different from the latter. However, if the two are compatible without contradiction, there must be at least a meaning to explain both in āyatana. I guess that there is a word showing the meaning of salāyatana of Arahant like kiriya(the kamma-free act of Arahant). Is there a word like Salindriya?

[Lal]

1. First, neither the Akusala-mula nor the Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada runs for an Arahant.

2. Arahants don’t do kamma (in the sense of kusala/akusala/punna/papa, etc.)
– Ther actions are described as “kriya”.

3. They don’t have six ayatana. They have six indriya all the time (while they are alive.)

[dosakkhayo]

OK. Then I’ll change the question this way. I would like to know the mechanism when Arahant do kiriya.

This is what I made as a prototype. I hope my intentions are conveyed.

vijja (instead of avijja) – kiriya? (instead of sankara) – nana (instead of vinnana)- ? (instead of namarupa) – six indriya (instead of six ayatana) – phassa (instead of samphassa) – vedana (instead of samphassa-ja-vedana) – ? (instead of tanha) – ? (instead of upadana) – ? (instead of bhava) – ? (instead of jati) – ? (instead of jaramarana …)

What words should be instead of the bold question marks?

[Lal]

You have a good analytical mind. But use it only when needed.

1. There is no need to “invent” a new Paticca Samuppada for an Arahant. An Arahant just lives the last life until the death of the physical body.

2. The Buddha described only two sets of Paticca Samuppada (PS) for a reason.
– One set (different versions of akusala-mula PS) describe the origin of the world or the origin of suffering.
– The other one describes Kusala-mula PS for the stopping of suffering.

3. Comprehending the “Udayavaya Ñāṇa” means understanding those two processes.
– “Udaya” is the “arising (of world/suffering),” or the anuloma (forward) PS. “Paṭhamabodhi Sutta (Ud 1.1)”
– “Vaya” is the “stopping of that process” or the patiloma (reverse) PS process. “Dutiyabodhi Sutta (Ud 1.2)“

[dosakkhayo]

I am writing now because I have something that comes to mind after reading your answer. Perhaps I’ll make a new thread.

[dosakkhayo]

Anidassana, Appaṭigha Rupa Due to Anidassana Viññāṇa

In #12
“Put it another way, dense rupa (experienced by the five physical senses) are localized, but the nāma category (vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa) is NOT localized. In between such dense (sappaṭigha) rupa and anidassana/appaṭigha nāma, there are anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (dhammā.)
Both nāma and dhammā are not localized and are included in viññāṇa dhātu. See, “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!”

–
Is anidassana/appaṭigha nāma the namagotta? If so, could you tell me how anidassana/appaṭigha rupa(dhammā) can turn into anidassana/appaṭigha nāma?

–
I think I’ve been making Lal exhausted with my meaningless questions lately. I’m sorry.

[Lal]

Namagotta includes both anidassana/appaṭigha nāma AND anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (dhammā.)

Think about it the following way.
– Namagotta includes ALL our past experiences.
– Some experiences do not lead to kamma generation and those lead to anidassana/appaṭigha nāma.
– With other experiences, we generate kamma bija/dhammā (via abhisankhara). Those lead to anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (dhammā.)

Now, kamma bija/dhammā can lose energy over time (those that have not brought vipaka). Those that brought vipaka lose their energy while bringing vipaka.
– Thus eventually anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (dhammā) end up as anidassana/appaṭigha nāma.

I explained this by answering another question from you in a different thread too. You may not have understood it there.
– Please read the above carefully. Quote from above what is not clear and ask questions. It is important to understand these concepts.

[dosakkhayo]

I hope this will be the last question on this subject. Can anidassana/appaṭigha nāma turn into anidassana/appaṭigha rupa(dhammā)? In other words, can a record losing energy have energy again by generating kamma bija or meeting the proper conditions? For example, bringing back a shocking memory that one forgot before. In this case, does the dhammā not return, but a new dhammā adds?

[Lal]

Dosakkhayo asked: “Can anidassana/appaṭigha nāma turn into anidassana/appaṭigha rupa(dhammā)?”

How can that be possible?
– Kammic energy is created by MIND via abhisankhara.
– How can that happen automatically to a namagotta that has gone to the past?

An anidassana/appaṭigha nāma in namagotta is a record in the PAST.
– Of course, if that record is recalled and you get attached to that memory and generate abhisankhara, that can create a kamma bija or an anidassana/appaṭigha rupa(dhammā). But that is a NEW namagotta.

I think you need to study the Paticca Samuppada processes. That should be the start. Understand how kamma bija/kamma bhava arise via abhisankhara done with avijja: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English”
– You can probably start with the third post.
– Once the terms are understood, the first two can be read later.

[dosakkhayo]

As far as I know, information within viññāṇa dhātu is preserved in a completely different way than in the material world(rūpa lōka). So I deduced the generation and preservation of information from Dhamma. Let’s start with a point we already understood.

For example, someone is happy after eating the cake. It took three things for this sensory event to happen. (i) arammana (the cake), (ii) one’s gati and anusaya, (iii) phassa (contact). In other words, these three pieces of information came together to create new information that someone is happy after eating the cake.

It can be summarized as follows: Existing information is required for any new information to occur.

It is also why there is no traceable origin in samsara. No matter how far back, there is still information.

Yes, now we know. But how is it possible? What is the mechanism of preservation of information?

First, we need to know that information includes three things: Rupa, Citta, and Cetasika. So, sankata is basically a variety of forms of information.

Sankata(information) is divided into two categories. The active one, the inactive one. The critical point is that additional energy is required for any information to activate.

Rūpa(including dhammā) means activated energy. So, anidassana/appaṭigha rūpa can turn into anidassana/appaṭigha nāma. But anidassana/appaṭigha nāma can not turn into anidassana/appaṭigha nāma.

From this, the following conclusions can be drawn.

Rūpa loses energy over time. The record of information is a naturally occurring process of it. The registration and preservation of information is not a process of consuming additional energy. It does not conflict with the above proposition(Existing information is required for any new information to occur).

Because the above process refers to information with energy(New Information), and the below process relates to information that remains as a result of the process of energy disappearance(Remaining Information).

Therefore, it can be seen that the two ways of generation of information(NI and RI) are all in one direction. It also explains that time flows in one direction with Dhamma’s words.

So, the question ‘What is the mechanism of preservation of information?’ is changed like that ‘how anidassana/appaṭigha rūpa(dhammā) turn into anidassana/appaṭigha nāma?’

Let’s think about it this way. When a bullet is fired from the gun, it will move in a parabolic trajectory. In this situation, the motion of the bullet is rūpa. And the trajectory of the bullet is namagotta. (Of course, the bullet is inert. But I hope this example can convey my thought.) The fired bullet will continue to move until it loses its power. When it loses all the power, the halt of the bullet is also registered in namagotta. Therefore, there is no need for any particular registration process. It happens naturally. As if it doesn’t take any registration process for a bullet to fly away.

–
Please let me know if there is anything wrong with this thought.

[Lal]

I appreciate your efforts to learn Buddha Dhamma. I have been thinking about your situation. Before addressing your mechanisms above, let me make some general comments.

1. I think you are trying to learn Buddha Dhamma with a “top-down” approach, starting at suddhatthaka.

2. The main reason that you did that was you were not brought up in a Buddhist background. I remember that you mentioned it later on. Your situation is very similar to many Westerners. Of course, most of them do not try to understand suddhatthaka only because most English literature on Buddhism does not even mention suddhatthaka. You were exposed to such deeper analyses at the Korean Puredhamma website. Instead, most Westerners start with deep suttas translated word-by-word to English.

3. I learned about suddhatthaka AFTER I started the puredhamma.net website. I was raised in a Buddhist family in Sri Lanka, where Buddhism was taught at home and in primary school. We learned the basics of dasa akusala, kamma, kamma vipaka, rebirth process, suffering in the apayas, etc.
– That is the “bottom-up” approach.
– That approach is critically important. You realize the importance of “mind over matter.” All our actions and speech happen according to the way we think. Kammic energy is produced in our thoughts. We engage in speech and actions ACCORDING TO such thoughts.
– When we act or speak with a certain goal in mind (especially while engaging in dasa akusala), our minds release “an unseen energy” to the nama loka (vinnana dhatu). That energy can bring vipaka during a lifetime or grasp the next birth in a different realm.
– It is critical to understand such basics first.
– As I mentioned, I only recently got into the deeper aspects of that process (how such kammic energies get deposited in vinnana dhātu as dhammā, how they become suddhātthaka, etc.)

4. So, I am beginning to think that I am also guilty of focusing on the deeper aspects of Buddha Dhamma. When I started the website, I wrote mostly about the basic concepts. But many of the posts in the last few years have been on getting into deeper aspects.
– In a way, it is hard to avoid it also because some people have gone through the basics and are ready to understand the deeper aspects.
– Please do not misunderstand me. You have an excellent analytical mind capable of understanding deep concepts. However, one must understand the basics first. Even if Einstein started learning Buddha Dhamma, he would need to understand the basics first. Otherwise, the deeper stuff may not make any sense at some point.

5. In my previous post, I advised learning the Paticca Samuppada process. But even before that, one needs to understand the terms involved there. What do the terms avijja, sankhara, bhava, jati, etc., represent?
– I did a quick search on Wikipedia and found the following: “According to a 2005 government survey, a quarter of South Koreans are practicing Buddhist.[49] However, the actual number of Buddhists in South Korea is ambiguous as there is no exact or exclusive criterion by which Buddhists can be identified, unlike the Christian population. With Buddhism’s incorporation into traditional Korean culture, it is now considered a philosophy and cultural background rather than a formal religion. As a result, many people outside of the practicing population are deeply influenced by these traditions. Thus, when counting secular believers or those influenced by the faith while not following other religions, the number of Buddhists in South Korea is considered to be much larger.[50] Similarly, in officially atheist North Korea, while Buddhists officially account for 4.5% of the population, a much larger number (over 70%) of the population are influenced by Buddhist philosophies and customs.”
– It seems that many South Koreans may not have a Buddhist background (you stated that you are a Korean.) Buddhism has become a “philosophical endeavor” for many, it seems. Your writings and approach fit that.

6. I would like to hear your thoughts on the above. Each person is different, and it would help to get an idea of their background first.
– Of course, I cannot do that on a personal basis for everyone. But I believe many people (especially those from non-Buddhist backgrounds) are in your situation. Most of them struggle to read deep suttas (in English) that have been mechanically translated without providing explanations.
– They also need first to understand the basic concepts I mentioned in #3 above.
– So, we can continue this discussion with others in a similar situation as you are also getting into the discussion (I hope).
– That would help me decide what areas to pay attention to. Of course, I will continue writing on deeper aspects as well. My goal is to have a website that will exist many years after my death and serve people with varying backgrounds.

[dosakkhayo]

#4: “So, I am beginning to think that I am also guilty of focusing on the deeper aspects of Buddha Dhamma.”

Don’t say that. You’ve done a great job. I’m sure that everyone who visits here knows it.

#5: “In my previous post, I advised learning the Paticca Samuppada process. But even before that, one needs to understand the terms involved there. What do the terms avijja, sankhara, bhava, jati, etc., represent?”

And another question from the mail: “Do you understand the difference between “phassa” and “samphassa”?”

I saw these questions and then I understood what was wrong. I never asked a question or tell about Paticca Samuppada in the forum or mail. That’s why lal didn’t know how much I understood. Also, I mentioned that I did not achieve any maggaphala before. Therefore, reasonably, lal would have advised me to learn the Paticca Samuppada.

I got infected with the coronavirus eight days ago. The first time I had a high fever, I felt like I could actually die. I suffered from a severely high fever of 103℉. I had been taking a rest with medicine brought from a nearby hospital while self-quarantining at home. Now, I am totally fine. Through this experience, I have clearly seen the dangers of staying in the human realm. I know that I can’t be free from this pain as long as I keep accepting vatthu kāma.

Anyway, I would like to focus more on what lal was going to say in the above post, so let me give you a brief answer. I did my best to understand the Paticca Samuppada. And I certainly attained sotapanna anugami now. But I am not sure whether I am sotapanna.

+) I can tell the difference between “phassa” and “samphassa” to you. Phassa is just contact between “six rupa” and “five pasada rupa and hadaya vatthu”. Samphassa means phassa with “san”. So it occurs through six ayatana.

#6: “I would like to hear your thoughts on the above. Each person is different, and it would help to get an idea of their background first.”

First of all, I don’t remember whether I said my age or not. Maybe I told lal by mail that I am 22 years old. I am 21 years old man from South Korea. The reason I said I was 22 years old before is because of the East Asian age reckoning. I grew up in a Catholic family. But I wasn’t devout because I couldn’t understand their doctrines logically. In 2019, I tried to join the sangha. But the group was Mahayana. I realized that their teachings were different from what I had studied. So I returned to lay life. At this time, I didn’t even know that there is Theravada Sangha in South Korea.

Anyway, I had a lot of thoughts about the direction of Pure Dhamma. Some of the prejudices against Budda sasana have not yet been addressed on this site. Let me list a two things.

1. Buddhism was influenced by Hinduism(Brahmanism more precisely). I think I saw this briefly covered in some posts. For example, Arōgyā Paramā Lābhā.. In Korea, many scholars and the general public think that Buddhism is a religion created by criticizing Hinduism. So it would be helpful to write about this topic, as far more people have this misunderstanding than we think.

2. Everyone has Buddha-nature. In Korea, it is not well known how exceptional the appearance of Buddha is. Because they think everyone has Buddha-nature. I think it would be appropriate to add a few paragraphs to the existing post(Key Problems with Mahāyāna Teachings) rather than writing a new post on this point.

So, these are what I came up with right after I was asked. I think we should continue to think about this problem in the future. It would be good to open a new thread to discuss this topic.

[dosakkhayo]

There is a grammatical error, so I correct it.

Therefore, reasonably, lal would have advised me to learn the Paticca Samuppada. => Therefore, reasonably, lal advised me to learn the Paticca Samuppada.

[dosakkhayo]

I re-read what I wrote and realized that I didn’t reflect the main point that lal said in the above post properly. So I worked on several tasks at the same time, and it caused a problem. When I was writing in English a question came in from the Korean Pure Damma Forum so I answered it. Next time, I’ll just do one thing at a time. It’s 00:46 now. So I’ll give you another opinion tomorrow. Thank you.

P.S. Lal said: “I appreciate your efforts to learn Buddha Dhamma.” Thank you!! for telling me about it. It is really helpful to me.

[Lal]

1. OK. I am quite happy to read your post above. I now understand your questions/comments on September 25, 2022, at 3:11 am. I will explain below.
– Communicating via writing can be tricky. We have to be careful to try to get the ideas expressed correctly. I read through the thread from the beginning and saw that I had made some errors (at I could have explained better a couple of points.) I have corrected those. See September 14, 2022 at 10:09 am (I have bolded the new text), and September 14, 2022, at 8:57 pm (first paragraph).

2. I was quite relieved that you seem to understand much more than many others. I am mainly referring to those who are only exposed to “traditional Theravada,” where they value Visuddhimagga and read mechanical (word-by-word) translations of deep suttas. Of course, Mahayana is not even close.
– I can see that many people writing on this forum have a good understanding. It is good to see that there are enough young people now to help others in the future, long after my generation is gone. I am responsible for teaching all I know, and I will do my best. That is all I can do to pay off my debts to Waharaka Thero, who is no longer with us.
– With that out of the way, let me try to address your questions/comments on September 25, 2022, at 3:11 am.

3. You wrote: “It can be summarized as follows: Existing information is required for any new information to occur. It is also why there is no traceable origin in samsara. No matter how far back, there is still information.”

I think what you are trying to say could be the following. Existing namagotta (or recalling existing namagotta) is necessary for us to do more (abhi)sankhara. That is how the rebirth process continues.
– We cannot even live life without recalling past namagotta. Take some simple examples. If records of your experiences several years ago to Disney World were not kept in nama loka (vinnana dhatu), you would not be able to recall them. If you cannot remember what a pizza looks like, you would not know what to do when you are given a pizza.
– For example, see “The Amazing Mind – Critical Role of Nāmagotta (Memories)” and “Five Aggregates – Experiences of Each Sentient Being“. You may have read most of these. I am giving them for the benefit of others.

4. You wrote: “Rūpa(including dhammā) means activated energy. So, anidassana/appaṭigha rūpa can turn into anidassana/appaṭigha nāma. But anidassana/appaṭigha nāma can not turn into anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (you had “nāma” there).”

That is exactly right. Very good.
– P.S. Of course, one can create NEW anidassana/appaṭigha rupa BASED ON recall of PAST anidassana/appaṭigha nāma and/or anidassana/appaṭigha rūpa (i.e., past events.)

5. You wrote: “Rūpa loses energy over time. The record of information is a naturally occurring process of it. The registration and preservation of information is not a process of consuming additional energy. It does not conflict with the above proposition(Existing information is required for any new information to occur).
Because the above process refers to information with energy(New Information), and the below process relates to information that remains as a result of the process of energy disappearance(Remaining Information).”

That may be written better as follows:
“Rūpa loses energy over time. The record of namagotta is a naturally occurring process. The registration and preservation of namagotta is not a process of consuming additional energy. It does not conflict with the above proposition (Existing namagotta is required for any new namagotta to occur).
That is because the above process refers to namagotta with energy (kammic energy or dhammā or appatigha rupa), and the below process relates to information that remains as a result of the process of energy dissipation (converted to namagotta without kammic energy or appatigha nāma).” See “Where Are Memories Stored? – Viññāṇa Dhātu”

6. That is a good explanation. I was glad to see that once I understood what you were trying to say. Note that it is better to use Pali words in many cases without trying to translate them to English (or any other language).
– It is impossible to convey the meaning of certain Pali words in any other language; the closest is the Sinhala language. Some people think I say that because I was born in Sri Lanka. But that is not true. Most Pali words are being used in the Sinhala language without any conversions. Examples include ALL the terms in Paticca Samuppada (avijja through jati, jara, marana, etc.)
– Nama loka (vinnana dhatu) is VERY different from rupa loka that we experience with our five physical senses. Things in the rupa loka have spatial locations. Namagotta in vinnana dhatu (nama loka) have no spatial locations. They can be accessed from even the other end of the universe (if one can get there). See “Where Are Memories Stored? – Viññāṇa Dhātu”
– All namgotta are preserved FOREVER as anidassana appatigha nama. That is why Buddha Gotama was able to recall getting “niyata vivarana” from Buddha Dipankara trillions of years ago. It is a natural law that namagotta are preserved forever. It is just that no one except a Buddha can figure out such details about our world.
– But, one does not need to believe such things based on blind faith. There is enough evidence from various avenues. For example, rebirth accounts by children worldwide, Near-Death Experiences (NDE) of numerous heart patients worldwide, and HSAM studies (“Recent Evidence for Unbroken Memory Records (HSAM)“) are among them. I have discussed them in detail. You probaly read most of them. I encourage others to spend time and read and evaluate them. That will build confidence in the teachings of the Buddha.

7. Thank you for the two suggestions in your later post. I will try to address them ASAP.

[dosakkhayo]

1. I read the revised version and I understood it.

2. “I am responsible for teaching all I know, and I will do my best. That is all I can do to pay off my debts to Waharaka Thero, who is no longer with us.” When I read these sentences, I could experience a cooling down of my heart. It is motivating me a lot. Thank you.

3. Yes.

5. Yes. That’s exactly what I was going to say.

6. “Note that it is better to use Pali words in many cases without trying to translate them to English (or any other language).” OK. I will do that next time.

7. Thank you for your service. I think we should continue to talk about that topic in the future. So I want to open a new thread to discuss it. Is it Okay?

[Lal]

Yes. I think it is a good idea. This thread is quite long.

[TripleGemStudent]

I am appreciative to be able to come across other discerning and wise minds. Thanks to other’s effort, questioning and discussions, recently having gone over and reviewed some of them, I was able to learn much. Some of the things mentioned / shared, myself might not have thought of or discerned. I can say I have truly seen and experienced for myself why Kalana mitta’s are 100% of the path and why it’s advised to associate with the wise.   

 

Recently having gone over the comments here and in the “Salayatana are not sense faculties” thread. I have a few questions for my own clarification purposes. I would like to give thanks in advance to others patience, time and effort in possibly answering or discussing some of the questions or points that might be brought up.  

 

#1 

One of the questions that I would like to have clarified is if “rupakkhanda” is preserved / stored (if the word stored means something similar as preserved) in the namagotta?  

I have seen most recent comments in the discussions that rupakkhanda is preserved in the namagotta. But I have also come across past comments and a PD post that possibly might state otherwise.  

Rupa and Rupakkhandha, Nāma and Nāmagotta

Rupa and rupakkhandha, together with nāma and nāmagotta, help describe two parts of our world: rupa loka and nāma loka. Rupa (forms) are in the rupa loka (material world), and rupakkhandha includes mental images of ALL rupa that we have ever experienced (but not directly preserved.) The four nāma aggregates are preserved in the nāma loka (immaterial or mental world) as nāmagotta.

 

#1A. What does it exactly mean by all rupa that we have ever experienced “not directly preserved”? What’s the difference between not directly preserved and directly preserved? 

Related materials to question #1A

In the Salayatana forum discussion, post #44645 

“Rupakkhanda is not stored, it is generated as needed from other four aggregates” (not Lal words)

Post #44649: 

“Namagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates” 

Within the same post, it mentions “Rupakkhanda is preserved in the namaloka as namagotta”.

#1B. For clarification purpose, namagotta including the 4 mental aggregates also contains all records of rupakkhanda, is this correct?  

 

#2. 

In post #40386  

It mentions that “namagotta are NOT rupakkhandha”.  

I would agree with the statement that “namagotta are NOT rupakkhanda” but I’m not sure if I have understood completely or properly why “namagotta are NOT rupakkhanda”. The reason why I believe namagotta are not rupakkhanda because namagotta contains more than just rupakkhanda, it also contains the other 4 mental aggregates (belonging to nama category), is this accurate / correct? 

 

#3. 

I believe a question was brought up “why rupakkhandha is not nama? (Since that rupakkhandha is all mental or mental impressions of rupa and not the rupa out there)” 

From one of the PD post, it mentions “The Buddha defined rupa as ALL those that can provide a sensory experience (vinnana)”.  

Could one of the possible reasons why rupakkhanda is not nama because rupakkhanda is what actually initiates the sensory experience (phassa) thereby belonging to the rupa category? 

 

#4. 

Post # 40496, it mentions that “dense rupa (experienced by the five physical senses are localized, but the nama category (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) is not localized.  

Would rupakkhanda also not be localized? 

[lal54]

TGS wrote: 

“#2. 

In post #40386  

It mentions that “namagotta are NOT rupakkhandha”.  

• I just read that comment. I did not see that statement there.

I think the following explanation may answer the above questions. I am putting my thoughts together for a new post, so this may be a good time to see whether I need to add more to the following:

How Memories Are Recorded in Viññāṇa Dhātu 

7. We can get a good idea of how memories are recorded in viññāṇa dhātu by understanding what it means to “see a rupa.” When you see a tree, only a “snapshot” of that tree is processed by the brain and sent to the hadaya vatthu (via cakkhu pasada rupa.) The registration of that image in mind is vedanā, and recognition of that image as a tree is saññā. (But even if we don’t realize it, multiple fast images are needed to get a “full picture” of the tree with saccadic eye movements; i.e., several such “snapshots” combine to give the image of the tree. )Thus, the tree is recognized with vedanākkhandha and saññākkhandha.  If no further “mind actions” take place, that vedanākkhandha and saññākkhandha are all that is recorded in viññāṇa dhātu. But that also includes saṅkhārakkhandha since vedanā/saññā are mano saṅkhāra!

• The point is that only the three aggregates of vedanā, saññā, and saṅkhāra recorded in viññāṇa dhātu define that rupa (the image of the tree.) Note that viññāṇakkhandha, in this case, comprises only vedanākkhandha, saññākkhandha, and saṅkhārakkhandha (with only mano saṅkhāra.) Hopefully, you can confirm that the rupakkhandha is “all mental” and is defined by only the four mental aggregates (but only the first three are enough.) Thus, in this case, namagotta is enough to define rupakkhandha.
• Again, to emphasize: what is preserved is vedanākkhandha, saññākkhandha, and saṅkhārakkhandha. But it contains all the necessary information to re-create a “mental image” of the rupa that was seen, i.e., the rupakkhandha.

8. Now, suppose instead of a tree, you see an attractive person, and lust arises in you. In this case, cetanā becomes sañcetanā (including kāma rāga) and is now more than a “seeing event.” Now a “kamma viññāṇa” arises, and that involves abhisankhara. Therefore, drastic changes take place in both saṅkhārakkhandha and viññāṇakkhandha. Thus, the namagotta now has an associated kammic energy! 

• Thus, now a memory of seeing that person is in viññāṇa dhātu, but, in addition, there is also an associated kamma bija, i.e., it is now a dhammā!

Viññāṇa Dhātu includes Records With and Without Kammic Energy

9. Therefore, memory records may or may not have associated kammic energy. Each sensory experience and our response to them are included in nāmagotta (all vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāna associated with every experience AND response). Some had embedded kammic energy when abhisaṅkhāra was involved, i.e., when kamma viññāna was involved. Those latter kinds are nāmagotta with energy, i.e., dhammā. 

If there are questions, please quote from the above and ask questions so that I can see what more needs to be added.

 

 

[lal54]

Under #7 above, I stated: “.. (But even if we don’t realize it, multiple fast images are needed to get a “full picture” of the tree with saccadic eye movements; i.e., several such “snapshots” combine to give the image of the tree. )Thus, the tree is recognized with vedanākkhandha and saññākkhandha…

The following post explains that: “Vision Is a Series of “Snapshots” – Movie Analogy.” (especially #6)

[cubibobi]

#44834

“Viññāṇa Dhātu includes Records With and Without Kammic Energy”

To put this in terms of the five aggregates, is it correct to say that:

Records without kammic energy are mere pañcakkhandhā and with kammic energy are pañcupādānakkhandhā?

Best,
Lang

[Lal]

That is an interesting observation.

• However, I don’t think they are the same.
• We may have kamma bija from far back, many eons back waiting to bring their kamma vipaka.
• However, we have “upadana” for sensory inputs that come to us in this life, some as strong vipaka but others just because we have this physical body that is open to a multitude of sensory inputs.
• Of course, there can be some correlation between the two.

P.S. They are definitely not the same.

For example, kammic energy associated with a past kamma is going to be there in vinnana dhatu until one of the following two happens: (i) it brings vipaka and exhausts all that energy, or (ii) it does not get to deliver vipaka and the energy fades away on its own, with time.

When someone attains Arahathood, all upadana go away, but the energies of many kamma done in the past are still there. Some kamma bija can bring their vipaka until the Arahant’s physical body dies, i.e., until attaining Parinibbana.

• For example, when Ven. Angulimala attained Arahanthood his upadanakkhandha completely vanished. But he was subjected to some abuse (there are accounts in Tipitaka saying when kids throw stones, some of them would automatically come and hit Ven. Angulimala; kids were not trying to hit him. So, many days, he would return from alms round bleeding.) 

It is good to think about these issues. That is when we can put our knowledge to work. This is real vipassana!

[cubibobi]

Thank you, Lal.

I was thinking that past pañcakkhandhā is namagotta, and that the upadana part was what created kammic energy.

So, upadana creates new kammic energy. For an arahant, there is no new kammic energy, but there is still past kammic energy.

[Lal]

That is correct. Upadana leads to accumulating new kammic energy. 

P.S. Taṇhā happens automatically due to “bad gati.” We have control over “upādāna” because that is when we become aware of the “attachment.” Thus, if we are mindful, we can realize we have started cultivating abhisankhara and stop it. That is the basis of Ananapasati/Satipatthana!

See “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna.”

1 user thanked author for this post.

DanielSt

[cubibobi]

“P.S. Taṇhā happens automatically due to “bad gati.” We have control over “upādāna” because that is when we become aware of the “attachment.” Thus, if we are mindful, we can realize we have started cultivating abhisankhara and stop it. That is the basis of Ananapasati/Satipatthana!”

Thank you for reminding us of this, i.e. control over upadana. And you emphasized it again in the newest post Anuseti – How Anusaya Grows with Saṅkhāra

#8
Thus, we must stop the process of “anuseti” (cultivating abhisaṅkhāra) as soon as realizing attachment to an ārammaṇa. This is the basis of Ānāpānasati/Satipaṭṭhāna.
…

A number of vipassana/satipatthana retreats out there teach people to focus on the “vedana paccaya tanha” step, the most typical of which is the “vipassana” as taught by S.N. Goenka. This tradition teaches people to scan the body for physical vedana to stop tanha for them.

Thus, they are scanning the wrong things. Instead we should be “scanning” for abhisaṅkhāra, stopping apuññabhisaṅkhāra (at least at the beginning) as soon as we catch them.

Without being exposed to true Dhamma I would still have been doing anapana as breath meditation and vipassana/satipatthana as above.

[Lal]

Good observation on “anuseti.“

• We need to keep reminding ourselves of these interconnections.
• Then once many pieces fall into place, they automatically come to mind without much effort.

[TripleGemStudent]

I believe I can agree / understand / see some of the general ideas / points / teachings relating to what’s being discussed here, but I can’t say I have understood everything.

Instead of quickly coming to conclusions and might possibly cause myself and others confusion and misunderstandings down the road. I feel it would be most beneficial for myself to critically evaluate my own understanding and should ask questions for further clarification, hoping to gain better clarity and understanding in regards to what’s being discussed here.

 

“In post #40386  

It mentions that “namagotta are NOT rupakkhandha”.  

I just read that comment. I did not see that statement there.

 

I apologize for the careless mistake. I am to blame for the confusion and misunderstanding, my apologies. The actual post is #40388

“However, only the “necessary ingredients (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) that can “re-create” that “image of the tree” is preserved in the namaloka as namagotta. When those ingredients are reflected back to the mind as “dhammā,” the mind can re-create the “image of the tree.” In other words, namagotta are NOT rupakkhandha.”

This is where I need some help with clarifying. Recent reply mentions: 

Hopefully, you can confirm that the rupakkhandha is “all mental” and is defined by only the four mental aggregates (but only the first three are enough.) “Thus, in this case, namagotta is purely rupakkhandha”

#1.  

I can’t say I’m 100% clear about the 2 bolded statements.

“In other words, namagotta are NOT rupakkhandha”

“Thus, in this case, namagotta is purely rupakkhandha”

I can see the points why the “namagotta are NOT rupakkhandha”, but maybe the problem with my understanding is that I can’t say I’m exactly clear on how namagotta is purely rupakkhandha when namagotta is not rupakkhandha.

From a recent post where it’s mentioned: “i.e., nāmagotta is not the same as rupakkhandha. Still, it comes back as rupakkhandha (corresponding to that time) when recalled.”

If I were to try answer my own question #1. It would be what is mentioned in a recent PD post. “Namagotta is not the same as rupakkhandha”, but it becomes rupakkhandha when we recall a memory.

Is this the same as saying “Thus, in this case, <u>namagotta is purely rupakkhandha”  when we recall a memory?</u>

#2.

Having reviewed materials from other PD posts and this thread. It has led me to believe that rupakkhandha is not preserved (stored?) in the namaloka as rupakkhandha but as the 4 mental aggregates.

It’s mentioned:

“The four nāma aggregates are preserved in the nāma loka (immaterial or mental world) as nāmagotta.”

“The four mental aggregates are preserved as a memory record or nāmagotta.”

“Rupakkhanada is not stored directly<br />
9. It is critical to realize that a “rupa” cannot be stored in the viññāṇa dhatu. Only a “mental imprint” of a rupa gets stored. That “mental imprint” is in the four “mental aggregates.”

“To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things,” Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved. 

In post # 44649, it’s mentioned:

“Rupakkhanda is preserved in the namaloka as namagotta”

If I have understood all the italicized sentences under #2 correctly. Rupakkhandha itself isn’t preserved in the namaloka, but “rupakkhandha is preserved (stored?) in the namaloka as namagotta through the 4 mental aggregates? Have I understood this correctly?

[Lal]

The point is the following:

1. Namagotta (memories) are preserved in vinnana dhatu as the mental aggregates. They don’t have energies but records. We need to make an effort to recall them. When we do, and if successful, those memories return to the mind as dhammā. Then the corresponding rupakkhandha is re-created in our minds. Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved DIRECTLY as an “image.”

•  Rupakkhandha is preserved in vinnana dhatu as metal aggregates. 
• The recent post “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14)” explains that in detail.

 

TGS wrote:

This is where I need some help with clarifying. Recent reply mentions: 

Hopefully, you can confirm that the rupakkhandha is “all mental” and is defined by only the four mental aggregates (but only the first three are enough.) “Thus, in this case, namagotta is purely rupakkhandha”

My reply: Per my general remarks above, I have revised the above statement there as follows:

• Hopefully, you can confirm that the rupakkhandha is “all mental” and is defined by only the four mental aggregates (but only the first three are enough.) Thus, in this case, namagotta is enough to define rupakkhandha.

 

TGS wrote:

#2.

Having reviewed materials from other PD posts and this thread. It has led me to believe that rupakkhandha is not preserved (stored?) in the namaloka as rupakkhandha but as the 4 mental aggregates.

My answer: Your above statement is correct.

• #9 you referred to is also correct. To quote: “9. It is critical to realize that a “rupa” cannot be stored in the viññāṇa dhatu. Only a “mental imprint” of a rupa gets stored. That “mental imprint” is in the four “mental aggregates.”  

I am not sure from where you quoted the following. It would be better to modify the last part of it as “Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved DIRECTLY“:

• “To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things,” Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved. 

[cubibobi]

“To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things”, Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.”

—–

An analogy from the IT field may be helpful here. Imagine a database system that works like this:

(1) A user creates a piece of data at time T1.

(2) The system records not the data itself but instruction on how to create that data; let’s say that the instruction consists of four pieces of information.

(3) At a later time T2 the user wants to retrieve that piece of data; the system goes to the instruction at timestamp T1, executes it per the four pieces of information, creates the data, and presents it to the user.

(4) There are no limits to the storage of the instructions.

Thus, the data itself (rupakkhandha) is NOT preserved; what is preserved is the 4-piece instruction (the four mental components) to recreate that data.

I said to imagine such a storage system, but actually there is a database system that works somewhat like this.

Best,
Lang

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TripleGemStudent, dosakkhayo

[Lal]

That is correct. 

• The “image” itself (of an experience) is not preserved; that would require energy. All necessary “mental factors associated with that past image” is maintained in  vinnana dhatu.
• Even scientists are not aware of this concept. They believe all memories are in neural connections in the brain. But that cannot explain memories from past lives or out-of-body experiences like NDE (near-death experiences.) There is a vast amount of indirect evidence for both.

[Tobi]

Hello Lal,

Supplement, answer to post #40356 Number 3

I would like it if your analogy with the chair lit by a candle, the dark room and the flashlight used a phosphorescence instead of the candle: So the chair has a phosphorescence. Thus dhammā would be equated with phosphorescence. So the more kamma viññāṇa was involved, the longer the chair glows. You can see him until the energy fades. He’s still there after fading but we can’t see him. Or you can recall him again by shining a flashlight on him. The flashlight then stands for the fact that the mind sends a request to nāmalōka. The strength of the request is then decisive for the afterglow of the chair………back with…(mananca paticca dhammeca uppajjati mano vinnanam)

For those who don’t want to google for phosphorescence. Phosphorescence is the property of a substance that glows in the dark after exposure to (visible or UV) light. The cause of phosphorescence is the radiative deactivation of the excited atoms and molecules

[Tobias G]

Please see Vb1

Rūpakkhandha is explained in many ways. I do not understand how you can say : “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“

That makes no sense according to Abhidhamma.

[Lal]

Yes, Tobi. It would be the same idea. Thank you.

 

Tobias wrote: “I do not understand how you can say : “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“

• I don’t know how many times I have to keep saying this. I NEVER meant to say, “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“
• As I explained in my last comment above: 

” It would be better to modify the last part of it as “Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved DIRECTLY“ (meaning it is not preserved as a direct image.)

• But the preservation of the mental aggregates guarantees that it is preserved.
• Still, we need to send some energy to recall it, as explained in the new post,  “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”

If the statement, “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“ appears somewhere, it needs to be revised. Please let me know in which post (bullet #) it shows up. I will revise it as above. If it is there, it is only an unintended error.

 

[Lal]

TGS, Tobias: I think it was the two of you who quoted the following:

“…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“

• Neither of you stated where I wrote that. I may have, but it must have been unintentional. I explained that in my above comment.

I need to fix it. So, please let me know in which post (bullet #) it shows up. Thank you!

[TripleGemStudent]

“If the statement, “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“ appears somewhere, it needs to be revised. Please let me know in which post (bullet #) it shows up. I will revise it as above. If it is there, it is only an unintended error”.

“Neither of you stated where I wrote that.”

 

If I remembered correctly . . . you mentioned that in post #44834. But anyways . . . 

 

Rupa and Rupakkhandha, Nāma and Nāmagotta

 

4.

Every time you see an object, that “image” goes into the “rupa aggregate” or “rupakkhandha.” However, that rupakkhandha is NOT preserved. When you recall memory, you “regenerate that mental image” in your mind. We will discuss that mechanism in upcoming posts.

 

6.

To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things,” Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved. The rupa component (the associated mental image) is “re-generated” only when one recalls that past event. We will discuss that recalling process later.

 

Thank you Lang for the example provided. When or if I can think of an appropriate responds to your example, I’ll mention it. 

“but actually there is a database system that works somewhat like this“

I don’t know anything about IT, but what’s the name of the database system that works like your example?

 

 

 

 

[Lal]

OK. Thank you.

I have revised them as follows.

4. Thus, “seeing” is a cakkhu viññāṇa (a thought.) We see that apple when a cakkhu viññāṇa arises in our minds. This is a fundamental fact, but it is good to clarify it. When we see that apple, a thought arises in our mind saying, “it is an apple.”

• The apple that you saw is NOT the same as the apple itself. It is just an image of the apple captured by your eyes. “Seeing” happens in your mind.
• Every time you see an object, that “image” goes into the “rupa aggregate” or “rupakkhandha.” However, that rupakkhandha is NOT preserved directly, i.e., as an image. When you recall a memory, you “regenerate that mental image” in your mind. This is discussed in detail in “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”
• There is no record of rupakkhandha (aggregate of forms) in the rupa loka! Memories of “rupa experienced in the past” are recalled from viññāṇa dhātu, as explained in the above post. Rupa and rupakkhandha are different entities.

6. Each event that we experience has a rupa, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa associated with it. For example, when we see an apple, the associated rupa is the MENTAL IMAGE of the apple (which becomes part of rupakkhandha.)

• That event also has a vedana, i.e., we know that we saw that apple. The associated saññā is the recognition of the object as an apple. Then we may generate saṅkhāra about it; for example, we may be to decide to eat it (as a vaci saṅkhāra.) Then the viññāṇa encompasses all those AND any associated plan (to eat it.) All five of those automatically added to the corresponding AGGREGATES (COLLECTIONS), i.e., rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.
• And the four mental components get added to his/her nāmagotta.
• Thus it is critical to see that each person’s five aggregates (pañcakkhandha) are THEIR OWN. One’s pañcakkhandha is one’s whole world! One has experienced all of it.
• To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things,” Thus, rupakkhandha is not preserved in the rupa loka. The rupa component (the associated mental image) is “re-generated” only when one recalls that past event from viññāṇa dhātu. See “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”

In the future, please refer to the post (and bullet #) in question, as you did above. That will avoid confusion.

[cubibobi]

— From Lal:”The apple that you saw is NOT the same as the apple itself. It is just an image of the apple captured by your eyes”.

The Bāhiya Sutta says something like: “seeing is just a trace of seeing, hearing is just a trace of hearing, …” (“diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, …”

These are different ways of expressing the same concept, correct?

– From TripleGemStudent
“I don’t know anything about IT, but what’s the name of the database system that works like your example?”

When I wrote that I was thinking of the Oracle Database Management System, since I know something about it. For this system, before it creates or updates a piece of data, it first writes (or logs) the instruction on how to write or update the data.

Eventually the system does write the data itself (when it is convenient to do so), but it is actually the logging mechanism that is critical.

 

Thank you!
Lang

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TripleGemStudent

[Lal]

Lang wrote: “The Bāhiya Sutta says something like: “seeing is just a trace of seeing, hearing is just a trace of hearing, …” (“diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, …”

• That statement is a bit deeper.

What I wrote, ”The apple that you saw is NOT the same as the apple itself. It is just an image of the apple captured by your eyes” is just a (initial) part of that deeper statement to Bahiya.

• Mine is a simpler statement. But you can get the idea if you think about how we see an object in more detail. The light must bring an image of the object (say, a person) to our eyes. That does not happen “in one shot,” like taking a picture with a camera. Within a split second, the eyes capture several images (from different parts of the person). The brain processes all that information and sends those to the hadaya vatthu in several “data packets.” It is the mind that “puts together” all those different frames and makes a “unified picture of a person X.”
• The “image of X” that arises in the mind is a “mind construction.” 
• In addition to “making a coherent picture of a person,” the mind also adds to that “picture” our pre-existing biases of X.
• The point is that what we experience is BASED ON the physical body of X. But what we experience is purely a mental construct. It has built-in sanna (recognition, not only as a person but also as a friend or foe) and vedana (somanassa/domanassa/neutral).

 We can make a rough connection to the verse in the Bahiya as follows:

• Our biases (seeing X as a friend, foe, etc.) are based on the defilements in our minds. That itself originates from the idea of “I am seeing X.” 
• But, in reality, it is only a “seeing event” that happens with a series of “snapshots.” (There is no “seer” in the ultimate sense, which is what Bahiya understood and instantly attained Arahanthood!) Each snapshot goes to the past before the next one arrives. It is the mind that “puts together all such events that are already in the past” and presents a “picture of X” as a rupakkhandha (aggregate of several snapshots AND also taking into account our past experiences with X). Amazingly, the mind can do all that in a split second.
• The discussion in #1 and #2 of the following post could be helpful: “Ārammaṇa Plays a Critical Role in a Sensory Event.”

 

Regarding the “data system analogy” of Lang: 

It is a simple analogy that cannot be taken too literally. 

• The data must be “stored” in a physical device, I guess. In that sense, it involves a device in the physical world. That is why analogies are not perfect, especially when we try to imagine a “mental process.” But Lang’s description of retrieval is a good idea.
• The “storage of namagotta” as the three mental aggregates (in vinnana dhatu) does not have a perfect analogy in the rupa loka.
• Also, note that only rupas (above the suddhatthaka stage) are in the “rupa loka.” Namagotta and dhammā (with energies below the suddhatthaka stage) are in vinnana dhatu or “nama loka.” See #4 through #6 in “Rupa and Rupakkhandha, Nāma and Nāmagotta” We cannot analyze the characteristics of vinnana dhatu or “nama loka” with terminology/examples in “rupa loka.”
• This is a complex subject. It is not necessary to understand it to attain Nibbana. I discussed it because many ask, “Where are memories stored?” OR “How can kamma bring their vipaka? Where are those kammic energies stored?” etc. Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate science. Modern science is far behind.

 

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TripleGemStudent, DanielSt, LayDhammaFollower

[LayDhammaFollower]

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

[DanielSt]

Ven Amadassana Thero also explains this Bahiya Sutta- Verse in his latest sermon beginning from 1:33:20 time.

 

I think it fits greatly with Lal’s explanation but also offers some other good analogies

 

 

 

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LayDhammaFollower

[Lal]

Thank you, DanielSt.

I watched a bit of it at 1:33:20 time. Venerable explains it well.

• “Me” is there because some experiences are “enjoyable.” So, the effort is to get more of such “enjoyable experiences.” 
• Such efforts involve immoral activities (at least on some occasions), leading to trouble in the future (in terms of kamma vipaka.) 

[LayDhammaFollower]

Sharing great sermon, @DanielSt. Thank you😀.

Can I talk with you over voice or video sometime, if you consent?

My mail is: [email protected]

[DanielSt]

Yes, sure.

 

I will write you an email. 

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LayDhammaFollower

[Author]

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