[TripleGemStudent]

Besides the hadaya vatthu (Suddhatthaka), would there also be dhamma and gati in the arupa loka?

My belief so far is that there would be and how I would describe what constitutes the arupa loka is energy or dhamma and gati below the Suddhatthaka stage. 

 

[Lal]

Yes. That is correct.

• There are no “olarika rupa” (dense rupa, i.e., rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phottabba) in arupa realms. 
• Only a suddhāttaka (hadaya vatthu) is associated with each sentient being there. It can experience dhammā (anidassana, appatigha rupa, i.e., which cannot be “seen or made contact with other than with a hadaya vatthu.”) 
• Most gati stay hidden as anusaya since there are no sensory attractions.
• Time spent in arupa realms (for anariyas) can be considered “vacation time” with peace of mind. It was earned by cultivating anariya arupa samapatti. At the end of that time, they are reborn as humans and start over. Old gati/anusaya can be triggered, leading to rebirths in the apayas.

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TripleGemStudent

[Sammasambodhi Gami]

I have a question. 

Please kindly correct me if I am wrong. 

-Any kamma bija loses its potency (energy) after 91 maha kappa.

-The life spans of the Arupa Brahma lokas are of the order of many thousands of maha kappa (even Asanna loka has a lifespan of 500 maha kappa)

-So the question is, after spending such a long time in those arupa realms, all the kamma bija of arupi brahmas should have become impotent. If yes, then how are they reborn? 

I hope the question is legitimate. If no, then please let me know. 

Thanks. 

 

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Jorg

[Lal]

That is a good question. However, we need to look at the Tipitaka reference to verify, “Any kamma bija loses its potency (energy) after 91 maha kappa.”

Please provide the reference.

[Sammasambodhi Gami]

I heard it in a deshana. So I assumed this to be true.

Does anyone has a Tipitaka reference? 

[Sammasambodhi Gami]

I found some posts where it is mentioned that any kamma bija retains its energy upto 91 maha kappas:

– Namagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane) 

– Vinaya – The Nature Likes to be in Equilibrium

 

 

 

 

[Tobi]

Hallo… Lal and TripleGemStudent, Saket

#44552 Where?
I don’t know for sure either, maybe in the comments. But I know,Kamma Bija is a term that means kamma seed or kammic potential. It is the energy or potential to bring about an effect in the future due to a kamma (volitional action) that was committed in the past. Kamma Bija is not a physical entity, but a mental phenomenon that is stored in the mind realm (mano loka). Kamma Bija can be moral or immoral, depending on the nature of the kamma that generated it.

Kamma seeds are not eternal, but they can last for a very long time, depending on the strength and nature of the kamma that generated them. Some kamma seeds can bring results only in this life or the next life, while others can bring results in future lives until they are exhausted or nullified by other kamma seeds. The Abhidhamma Pitaka, which is a part of the Buddhist Pali Canon that provides a systematic and philosophical explanation of the teachings of the Buddha, does not give a specific time for when kamma seeds lose their effect, but it classifies kamma into four types by time of ripening: 

•  immediately effective (ditthadhammavedaniya)
• subsequently effective (upapajjavedaniya)
• indefinitely effective (aparapariyavedaniya)
• and ineffective (ahosi) kamma.

or see Links #44553

 

Arupa Loka and Hadaya Vatthu

Hadaya Vatthu is a term meaning the seat of the mind or heart base. It is a type of rupa (material form) that resides in the physical heart and serves as the basis for all types of consciousness (citta) except for the five sense consciousnesses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) which are their own Having bases (pasada rupa) in the corresponding sense organs. 
Hadaya vatthu is considered rupa because it is a physical phenomenon that arises and ceases due to various causes such as kamma, citta, utu (temperature) and ahara (food). It is not the same as the physical heart, but it is closely related. 

Hadaya Vatthu is one of the 28 types of Rupa classified in the Abhidhamma. 
Hadaya Vatthu is present only in the worlds where there is rupa, not in the arupa loka (immaterial worlds). According to the Abhidhamma, there are five arupa loka in which Hadaya Vatthu is not present: Arupa loka is the world of immaterial beings composed only of citta and cetasika (mental factors), without rupa (material form). There are five Arupa Loka corresponding to the five Arupa Jhanas.

• Akasanancayatana: the world of infinite space perception
• Vinnanancayatana: the world of infinite consciousness perception
• Akincannayatana: the world of nothingness perception
• N’evanasannanasannayatana: the world of neither perception nor non-perception
• Asannasatta: the world of unconscious beings

In these worlds, there are only 12 types of Citta: four are jhanic moral Citta, arising from the practice of Arupa Jhanas, and four are vipaka Citta, arising from the result of these Jhanas. The other four are bhavanga Citta, representing the base state of the mind. These Citta are very subtle and pure, but not liberating. To attain Nibbana, one has to come out of Arupa Loka and attain the four stages of Magga Phala.

I take an example here, Asannasatta in Arupa Loka where there is no Hadaya Vatthu. To get there, one would have to attain the 4th Jhana with Citta viraga Bhavana, which is done without panna (wisdom). The generated Kamma energy leads to Arupa-Jhanas. It is a detachment from consciousness.

Citta viraga Bhavana is a type of meditation that aims to free the consciousness (citta) from attachment (raga). It is a form of insight meditation (vipassana) that contemplates the three characteristics of existence (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and realizes the true nature of all phenomena. Citta viraga Bhavana helps to see the Lakkana of all conditioned things and thereby overcome greed (lobha), hatred (dosa) and ignorance (moha), which are the causes of suffering. Citta viraga Bhavana leads to wisdom (panna), purity (visuddhi) and liberation (nibbana).

In Asannasatta one is without consciousness (like in a coma) but still has Bhavatanha. It is called an existence without Nama and lasts as long as the Kamma energy is exhausted. So without Citta, Cetasika, Gati and cannot trigger Anusaya. It is a Bhavanga state of mind formed in the Patisandhi moment that does not trigger Citta. So one cannot make any statement about the presence of Gati, Anusaya there but only say it is not triggered. In this realm one is only held by Bhavatanha. And Dhamma could be seen as the natural law of the world with its 31 realms.

Bhavata manga is a Pali term that literally means “the striving for existence”. It is a form of bhava tanha, the attachment to existence or becoming. It is one of the causes of suffering (dukkha) in Theravada, as it maintains the cycle of rebirth (samsara). In Abhidhamma, bhavata manga is a type of cetasika (mental factor) that arises with and influences the consciousness (citta). It is one of the four types of abhisankhara (volitional formations) caused by ignorance (avijja). It is also one of the ten types of anusaya (latent tendencies) mentioned in the Dhammasangani, one of the books of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka.

Gati/Gathi are the saṁsāric habits or tendencies of a being, shaped by his kammic tendencies (anusaya) and attachments (āsava). Gati determine the way a being reacts to different situations, and influence his moral or immoral actions (kamma). Gati are also associated with the cetasika (mental factors) that arise in each thought (citta). The cetasika can be good (sobhana), bad (asobhana) or neutral, depending on whether they are connected with wisdom (paññā) or ignorance (avijjā). Gati are thus the deeply rooted habits that shape our thoughts and deeds. They can change over time, if one makes an effort to overcome the bad gati and cultivate the good gati. The liberation from all gati that do not lead to Nibbana is the way.

Anusaya are latent tendencies or dispositions, regarded as one of the sources of impurities (kilesa). They are defilements that lie “along with” (anusenti) the mental process to which they belong, and arise as obsession whenever they meet with suitable conditions. There are seven types of anusaya: sensuality (kama), existence (bhava), non-existence (vibhava), view (ditthi), doubt (vicikiccha), conceit (mana) and ignorance (avijja). Anusaya is also discussed in relation to other concepts such as kamma, paticcasamuppada, citta and cetasika. The substratum or basis of anusaya is the bhavanga citta, which represents the base state of the mind. The bhavanga citta is the result of the kamma citta that arose at the end of the previous life. It is the citta that flows during sleep or between the perceptions of sense objects. It is also the citta that ceases at the end of the present life.

Appatigha rupa is a type of rupa (material form). It means the form that cannot be touched or the form that does not collide with other forms. It is one of the 16 types of sukhuma rupa (fine form), which are different from the 12 types of olarika rupa (gross form). The sukhuma rupa are also anupadinna rupa (non-appropriated form), which are different from the 18 types of upadinna rupa (appropriated form). Appatigha rupa are the finest external forms, which can only be perceived by the mind (mana), not by the five physical senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body). They are also called dhamma, because they only exist as mental objects. Appatigha rupa are also anidassana rupa (invisible form), because they do not reflect or absorb light. Appatigha rupa are the forms that exist in the arupa loka (immaterial worlds), where there is only consciousness and mental factors, but no material form.

Citta is thus called consciousness and consciousness is not localizable in the infinite invisible space, not even in the Arupa Loka. It has no location in the immaterial Loka. It pervades space at the lowest level. I have also not been able to find in any Sutta or other scriptures that Sammasambuddha would have claimed otherwise. (Maybe in the commentaries) + (If yes please post here) Consciousness cannot be defined spatially, it is very special and depends on space. It is only assumed philosophically and during meditation in the heart region (description in Abhidhamma, visuddhimagga, etc.) and only applies to the realms with Rupa and these are Rupa Loka, Kama Loka and Apayas where a Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya) is present. (Vatthu can be found in the scriptures as well as Hadaya in the commentaries but not as Hadaya Vatthu).

To the question: #44543
So no Hadaya Vatthu in Arupa Loka.

The kamma that was generated in the last life with Citta viraga Bhavana acts in the Patisandhi moment and creates the bhavanga state in Arupa Loka.

The definition of Dhamma is missing according to which Dhamma, but there is Dhamma in Arupa Loka. Without Dhamma no universe! Gati is present just like anusaya but does not come into play.

• In the following 2 realms only Nama exists without Rupa.
  1. Akasanancayatana: the world of infinite space perception
  2. Vinnanancayatana: the world of infinite consciousness perception
• In the last 3 realms there is neither Nama nor Rupa but the mind is only present. Because there is still residual kamma in the form of Bhavatanha.
  3. Akincannayatana: the world of nothingness perception
  4. N’evanasannanasannayatana: the world of neither perception nor non-perception
  5. Asannasatta: the world of unconscious beings
• So one can see that even in the last 3 realms Arahanthood is not attained. Otherwise Namarupa would not be present, it is only suppressed.

Life is Namarupa……………Nibbana is No Namarupa……

Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu…………

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namo0804

[Lal]

Thank you for bringing this issue for discussion, Saket. Thank you for the comment, Tobi. 

1. Waharaka Thero has discussed this issue of “kamma vipaka can materialize up to 91 maha kappas.” However, as I recall, that does not apply to janaka kamma, i.e., those that can lead to rebirth.

• There is a sutta that discusses the issue of “kamma vipaka can materialize up to 91 maha kappas.” As I recall, it involves King Bimbisara. He saw a dream where a group of petas came to him and asked for his help to be released from the peta realm. The Buddha explained to the King that he can indeed help them because they had helped him within the past 91 maha kappas.
• The point is that this 91 maha kappa limit does not apply to janaka kamma (those leading to rebirth.) The reference in that sutta is to kamma vipaka appearing during a lifetime. 

2. In general, an aparāpariyāyavedanīya kamma (that can bring rebirth) may be indefinitely effective, as Tobi pointed out. Of course, it may wear out after millions of maha kappas, but no such limit is specifically stated.

3. Tobi wrote: “So no Hadaya Vatthu in Arupa Loka.”

• That is not correct. Citta cannot arise without a rupa. An arupi Brahma has the smallest rupa, hadaya vatthu.
• Viññāṇa (i.e., citta) cannot arise without being accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra: “Upaya Sutta (SN 22.53)” and subsequent few suttas.
• That quoted verse can be improved as “Without accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra, the establishment, growth, or the movement of viññāṇa is not possible.”

4. I have revised the two posts Saket quoted. Thanks again to Saket for pointing that out.

[Sammasambodhi Gami]

Thank you so much Ven. Lal Sir for the insights! And thanks to Mr. Tobi for your kind explanations.

The relevant Sutta in this case is the famous Tirokutta Sutta

Huge merits to everyone !

Theruwan Saranai !!!

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Tobi

[Lal]

Thanks again, Saket. I revised the post.”Namagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)” to include the following (under #4):

• The weaker “kamma bījas” (that brings vipāka during a lifetime) can last up to 91 mahā kappās (a mahā kappa is the lifetime of a universe, roughly 30 billion years). For example, offering food to bhikkhus falls into that category. This reference to 91 mahā kappās is in the following: “Part 3 – The Buddha’s Delivery of The Tirokuṭṭa Sutta.” That was the background for the Buddha to deliver the “Tirokuṭṭa Sutta (kp 7).” Thanks to C. Saket for sharing the link to that background account!
• However, strong ones will be there until it comes to fruition, especially for rebirth; of course, that holds only for average humans (non-Ariyas.)

[Tobi]

Hello Lal I have more questions too #44559

 

Please can you give me the reference for my studies for the statement.:” Città cannot be created without Rupa. An Arupi Brahma has the smallest rupa, hadaya vatthu.” To give?

Uppapatibhavana is a Pali term that means “rebirth” or “reappearance”. It is one of the two kinds of bhava (existence or becoming) that condition the cycle of birth and death (samsara). The other kind is kammabhava (action or volition) . Uppapatibhavana refers to the actual arising of a being in a particular realm of existence according to its kamma. There are thirty-one realms of existence in Buddhist cosmology, divided into three main categories: the sense realm (kamaloka), the form realm (rupaloka) and the formless realm (arupaloka). Uppapatibhavana is also used as a synonym for jati (birth), which is one of the twelve links of dependent origination (paticcasamuppada)

I see it this way, that in the Upayasutta SN 22.53 the departure from the Kamaloka is described and not a Brahma realm (Arupa Loka). That is why the Buddha also left us a gap in the Upaya Sutta. The one I see there, is: (1.6)

SN 22.53 / 1.6 
Or as long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with choices, supported by choices, grounded on choices. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature.

saṅkhārupayaṁ vā, bhikkhave, viññāṇaṁ tiṭṭhamānaṁ tiṭṭheyya, saṅkhārārammaṇaṁ saṅkhārappatiṭṭhaṁ nandūpasecanaṁ vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjeyya.

It is the before … the kamma that occurs in the patisandhi moment and is connected with bhavatanha, leads to the citta resting in the asannasatta. Vinnana is present. But it does not need rupa to be localized because there is not even a Space Element there. The localization of vinnana/citta in the kamaloka is done by kama-generated rupa. It is placed in the gandhabba by the arrangement of the rupas.

For example, cakkhu-viññana has Pasada Rupa as its basis and can therefore be localized in the region of our eye.

Lal said: That quoted verse can be improved as “Without accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra, the establishment, growth, or the movement of viññāṇa is not possible.

Who says that rupa is needed in the arupa loka, where there is no rupa, one does not need sanna, vedana and sankahra. Sankahra one does to counteract abhisankahra and to reach the arupa realms or at least not to form new kamma for it. It does not go higher, these are already the highest realms. This is the absolute bliss, these are the highest jhanic states. There vinnana/citta is not locally bound. There nama is so strong that it can generate rupa in large quantities. It is more like a bhavanga state.

 

Sorry… but your explanations do not convince me yet. Please more_/|\_/|\_/|\_

[Lal]

1. Tobi’s question: “Città cannot be created without Rupa.”  

• I gave the references:  “Upaya Sutta (SN 22.53)” and the subsequent few suttas n that series.
• As for “An Arupi Brahma has the smallest rupa, hadaya vatthu,” citta cannot arise without a hadaya vatthu! No reference is needed. Furthermore, as explained in the “Upaya Sutta (SN 22.53),” citta cannot arise without a rupa.

2. Tobi’s question: “Uppapatibhavana is a Pali term that means “rebirth” or “reappearance.”

• There is no term “Uppapatibhavana.” 
• There are “kamma bhava” and “uppatti bhava” which are related. All kammic energies are in the”kamma bhava,” and some of them become “uppatti bhava” when rebirths (uppatti) occur.
• See “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein.”

3. Tobi’s question/comment: 

“It is the before … the kamma that occurs in the patisandhi moment and is connected with bhavatanha, leads to the citta resting in the asannasatta. Vinnana is present. But it does not need rupa to be localized because there is not even a space element there. The localization of vinnana/citta in the kamaloka is done by kama-generated rupa. It is placed in the gandhabba by the arrangement of the rupas.

For example, cakkhu-viññana has Pasada Rupa as its basis and can therefore be localized in the region of our eye.

Lal said: That quoted verse can be improved as “Without accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra, the establishment, growth, or the movement of viññāṇa is not possible.

Who says that rupa is needed in the arupa loka, where there is no rupa, one does not need sanna, vedana and sankahra. Sankahra one does to counteract abhisankahra and to reach the arupa realms or at least not to form new kamma for it. It does not go higher, these are already the highest realms. This is the absolute bliss, these are the highest jhanic states. There vinnana/citta is not locally bound. There nama is so strong that it can generate rupa in large quantities. It is more like a bhavanga state.”

My response: I don’t know what to say about the above. You need to read more posts and understand the basics. Note that the term ” arupa loka” was there before Buddha Gotama. It DOES NOT mean there are no rupa there. There were ancient yogis who were able to see many of the realms in rupa loka. Births in the rupa loka are attained by cultivating the four jhanas. When one cultivates higher samapatti (which are called fifth through eighth jhanas these days), one gets rebirths in arupa loka. Even though those yogis could “see” beings in the rupa loka, they could not see the beings with just the hadaya vatthu in arupa realms. Only a Buddha can see a hadaya vatthu (a single suddhatthaka.) 

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Tobi

[Tobi]

I’m sorry, I’ve been sitting here poring over this for 17 hours and my head is very tired now. Again, Venerable Lal, heartfelt and respectful thanks for your efforts.

I had just fallen asleep when another thought came to me. So PC back on…

So until the last 5 Arupa realms, everything is clear.

Hadaya Vatthu houses the Mind Consciousness Element, which has 75 Citta, and the Mind Element, which has 4 Citta. Now, when I say that the Arupa Loka refers only to the absence of Gandhabba.

And that Hadaya stands for Mind Element, which is connected to 4 Cittas in Arupa Loka and that is the only Rupa.

• Vatthu means physical basis, i.e. the six physical organs on which the mental process is based
• Hadaya = Mind Element = 4 Citta together
• So together Hadaya Vatthu
• Asannasatta: The world of unconscious beings has Hadaya Vatthu / Mind Element (ME), which has 4 citta who are in a bhavanga state. They have no Aramanna for the creation of a citta.
• But I say the 5 Arupa Loka are special.

So for me it would fit like this……..

[Tobi]

Hello…….

According to what I could find, Hadaya Vatthu is formed by kamma in the patisandhi moment in the arupa loka together with Pasāda Rupa (C, S, G, J-Vatthus), where Pasāda Rupa do not necessarily have to arise with it. So Hadaya Vatthu itself is considered the lowest rupa and they did not bother to call it Hadaya Vatthurupa because in the word Vatthu, the Vatthurupa is included. Because if Hadaya Vatthu did not have the connection to Vatthurupa, the statement that the world consists of 28 types of rupa would not be correct.

Hadaya Vatthu is therefore considered the absolute basis as a fundamental rupa for Nama+Rupa in all 31 realms………..

Sādhu, Sādhu, Sādhu….

[Lal]

Yes. That is correct, Tobi.

• Hadaya vatthu is the “seat of the mind.” Thoughts cannot arise without a hadaya vatthu.
• It is so tiny that no scientific instrument will ever be able to detect it. It can be estimated to be a billion times smaller than an atom in modern science.

Don’t get stressed out. Take the time, read carefully, and ask questions if needed. You have made a lot of progress.

• May the Blessings of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha be with you in your efforts!

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Tobi

[TripleGemStudent]

Compliments to all the participants in this thread. Great question brought forth by Saket and others in this and other threads, even I didn’t / couldn’t think of some of those comments or questions being asked.

 

Insightful and helpful responds by Lal as usual. Tobi sharing his thoughts and own understanding of the dhamma in this thread and not being completely satisfied with some of the explanations. I always believe that “it’s better to be wrong, than blindly believing that I’m right”. Several times, Lal and others have helped me to correct any wrong views and understanding of the dhamma that I might have had. I’m really glad that both Saket and Tobi brought up / mentioned the things that they did. In the end from discussions, what I hope for is that myself and others are able to receive answers / feedback that can benefit our practice and help to correct any wrong view’s and misunderstandings that we may have in regards to the dhamma.  

 

In regards to Saket question and Lal’s respond. If I have understood this correctly and by using my current jati (life) as an example. Any kamma that was done in my current and previous bhava / jati through the akusala-mula P.S. cycle within 91 maha kappa of this jati, those “certain” kamma vipaka’s can manifest within my current life (jati). But some other “certain” kamma vipaka potent before the 91 maha kappa from this life time is nullified. 

 

From other’s more knowledgeable than me on this topic, it’s mentioned that it hasn’t been stated “if” or “the duration of time” before aparāpariyāyavedanīya kamma (that can bring rebirth) will be nullified. 

 

From what I can see, it would make sense that aparāpariyāyavedanīya kamma (that can bring rebirth) would either be: 

 

(A) have a longer duration before being nullified than “other (weak?)” kamma vipaka potentials that falls within 91 maha kappa of one’s current bhava / jati. 

 

Or 

 

(B) It’s something permanent (imprints or records) like the nama gotta. (What I can think of at this moment) “maybe” with energy (vinnana) potential making contact with those imprints or records give rise to bhava / jati.     

 

But only from the same life stream vinnana can give energy potential to those imprints or records (one’s own panchakkhanada). When one attains Nibbana, those imprints or records stop recording, but would still be available for those with super powers like the Buddha’s to view. 

From my own life experience and what I can observe, my belief is that there’s got to be “something” that’s recording / imprinting / inscribing, etc., my every single thoughts / sights / feelings, etc. If there is no such a thing, how would my memory work? So, it’s my belief that there’s got to be “something” out there carrying out this mechanism.   

 

From the sutta’s, I’m not 100% certain if I’m remembering this correctly, but sometimes when someone attained parinibbana, it’s mentioned that they are no where to be found. Besides the obvious understanding that they are no longer anywhere in the 31 realms of existence. Maybe an additional / supplemental way to further explain what happens to a satta who has attained parinibbana is that the recording of the thoughts, sights, etc., (panchakkhanada) stops and that there is no further / into the future panchakkhanada of that satta to be viewed, even by those with super powers.    

 

An example that I can think of to better / further describe what I’m trying to say is that by imagining myself (TGS) as movie director / creator / and acting in my own movies. Myself being in a movie is like having a record / imprint of my panchakkhanada for myself and other’s to view. As long as I’m alive and making movies, my panchakkhanada would keep accumulating / recording. But let’s say this (I, me) life stream have attained parinibbana, then my panchakkhanada would stop accumulating / growing / recording or that TGS will no longer appear in anymore future movies.  

 

If someone were to say “what movie will TGS appear next?” We can’t say what movie will TGS appear next because he’s no longer in this world, but we could still say what movie TGS has appeared in before parinibbana since we have records of what movies TGS has appeared in and we can re-watch them.    

 

Something I would like to mention is that I would like to apologize as I haven’t put much time and effort into what we’re discussing here as this is not where my mind and effort is currently at. I’m just throwing out some ideas and it’s possible it might have some flaws / inconsistencies. 

 

I know someone mentioned about the nama gotta in another thread. Can Saket question and what it’s being discussed here have some kind of relation / connection to the nama gotta?

 

In regards to Lal and Tobi discussion here, I believe sometimes asking / answering some basic / fundamental questions first could be beneficial. I have observed and sometimes guilty myself that we sometimes get so caught up in details, that we don’t realize or see that a more basic or fundamental question might be helpful as well for the discussion or our own understanding. I believe one of these questions relating to what’s being discussed is that “can there be a living being without rupa? or the 5 aggregates?” 

 

If there cannot be a living being without rupa, then what kind / type rupa would this be in the highest arupa realms? 

 

Currently I don’t know how much more time and effort I’ll put into thread, just hope whatever was mentioned can be of any help and stand for corrections if there was any mistakes or misunderstandings. 

[Lal]

1. Most of the difficulties associated with memory, namagotta, kamma bija, dhammā, kamma vipaka, hadaya vatthu, etc., could be due to the following reason.

• We have a “mental world (nāma loka)” as well as a “material world (rupa loka).” 
• The Buddha categorized everything in the world into six types of dhātu: pathavi, āpo, tejo, vāyo, ākāsa, and viññāṇa.
• The rupa loka encompasses the first FIVE dhātu. Most of us are only familiar with the rupa loka. Scientists are focused on the rupa loka too.
• Memory, namagotta, kamma bija, dhammā, kamma vipaka, hadaya vatthu, etc., are all related to the sixth dhātu: viññāṇa dhātu.

2. We tend to try to visualize the entities in the nāma loka or viññāṇa dhātu using the terminology/concepts we are familiar with in the rupa loka. That is an obstacle.

• Viññāṇa dhātu (nāma loka) INCLUDES all mental entities: vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa.
• In contrast, the rupa loka only deals with five types of rupa: rupa rupa, sadda rupa, gandha rupa, rasa rupa, and phottabba rupa. 
• The sixth type of rupa, dhammā or dhamma rupa, is associated with the nāma loka.

3. Thus, we can see that we must make an extra effort to understand the viññāṇa dhātu (nāma loka).

• Also, the Buddha taught that the mind comes first, not matter: “Manōpubbangamā Dhammā..“
• The following sections/posts could be helpful: “Where Are Memories Stored? – Viññāṇa Dhātu,” “Our Two Worlds – Rupa Loka and Nāma Loka,” “Where Are Memories “Stored”? – Connection to Pañcakkhandha.”

It is getting late here. So, I will stop here for now. But this is an important topic, so please comment or post questions. 

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LayDhammaFollower

[LayDhammaFollower]

I am attaching a document named “Yathābhūta ñāna”. I created that table in order to clearly understand the fundamentals of that topic. Hope it’s helpful to others as well.

Yathabhuta-nana-1<br />
<br />

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TripleGemStudent, Jorg

[Lal]

Thank you for the document, LDF. I will look at it later.

To continue with my thoughts in my earlier comment:

4. As I mentioned above, we should not try to understand concepts associated with viññāṇa dhātu (nāma loka) with those we are familiar with the rupa loka.

• In the rupa loka, “things/rupa above the suddhatthaka level” have spatial locations.  But “nāmagotta and dhammā” in the nāma loka do not have spatial locations. We can recall memories from anywhere (astronauts were able to do that on the Moon). In the same way,  dhammā can bring kamma vipaka whether we are on the Moon or anywhere else.
•  That is just a feature of viññāṇa dhātu (nāma loka).

5. The same with the “recording of nāmagotta and dhammā.” No devices are doing the recording! That is how nāmagotta and dhammā operate.

• That is how nature operates. The Buddha did not make up those rules. He only discovered them. He was subjected to the same rules. He got to old age and passed away just like any sankhata.

If TGS or anyone else has questions, please feel free to ask. It could be helpful if a question is asked without too much (background) description. Sometimes I am not sure whether it is a comment or a question. Also, if possible, refer to a bullet number in a post if the issue is with the post.

• Please make sure to read the posts recommended in my previous comment.

[Jorg]

I’ve been reflecting on kamma and vipaka the last few days. I think it might be a relevant topic here regarding the viññana dhatu.

I was talking to a friend to other day about Buddha Dhamma, in person. When I’m around him, a lot more Dhamma flows in comparison to most other people I meet. A big part of it is due to his merits. You could say because you’re talking face-to-face, the conditions are in favor of that to happen. Well, yes surely it’s a favorable condition. However, after we parted ways, those merits are still working aren’t they. It doesn’t matter if we are in the same country or not. Often we have been on opposite sides of the world and that doesn’t change anything. If we had the technology, we could be on opposite sides of the universe and it wouldn’t change anything.

Also, everybody knows how it feels how “all of a sudden” they have to think of a certain person and, for example, share something with them that they might find useful. And then it appears that they were just looking for it. Of course, that’s no coincidence. Again the result of merits (from the mental plane).

Of course, kamma and vipaka goes much deeper, and i oversimplify things, but it might perhaps add to the explanations given already.

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LayDhammaFollower

[LayDhammaFollower]

This is the equation of kamma vipaka as I understand it. (Kamma generation of course happen via akusala PS cycle.)

===

A (effect) = { B + C + D + E + F } causes

where,

A = vipaka (effect) = resulting music in radio

B = Physical environment = Body = Radio itself = determines range of available frequencies

Deva/Brahma body wouldn’t be able to manifest kamma bīja suitable only for humans or lower realms.

humans would not manifest vipaka of lower realms.

C = Mental environment = Mindset/Bhava = Tuning of radio = determines which station is tuned

Arhants would not kill anyone, even if they might come across someone who had violently killed them. Because, they have eradicated all the bad bhava.

D = Surrounding environment = Kind of beings around us and their mindset = Location of radio = determines what radio stations are in range and what radio stations are not available

If you are in a monastery full of ariya, you will mostly manifest good kamma/merits.

E = kamma bīja/kamma viññāṇa = Various Radio stations broadcasting signals at different frequencies

F = unknown complex variables discernible only to Buddha

===

Vipaka in a nutshell, can be compared to resonance (Resonance between the overall environment and previous kamma seeds.)

[Lal]

That is a good analysis, LDF.

• However, it can be simplified as just two main factors: (i) kamma bīja/kamma viññāṇa, (ii) suitable conditions for a given kamma bīja to bring its fruit. This latter is “samanantara paccaya“: “Anantara and Samanantara Paccayā.”

[Author]

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