April 17, 2023 at 9:30 pm #44416
Katame nava dhammā visesabhāgiyā? Nava āghātapaṭivinayā: ‘anatthaṁ me acari, taṁ kutettha labbhā’ti āghātaṁ paṭivineti; ‘anatthaṁ me carati, taṁ kutettha labbhā’ti āghātaṁ paṭivineti; ‘anatthaṁ me carissati, taṁ kutettha labbhā’ti āghātaṁ paṭivineti; ‘piyassa me manāpassa anatthaṁ acari …pe… anatthaṁ carati …pe… anatthaṁ carissati, taṁ kutettha labbhā’ti āghātaṁ paṭivineti; ‘appiyassa me amanāpassa atthaṁ acari …pe… atthaṁ carati …pe… atthaṁ carissati, taṁ kutettha labbhā’ti āghātaṁ paṭivineti. Ime nava dhammā visesabhāgiyā.
I’d like to know the meaning of this repeated sentence. “taṁ kutettha labbhā’ti āghātaṁ paṭivineti.”
In Korean translation, it said: “But in this case, where does it exist between the two of us?”
In English translation: “But what can I possibly do?”
I think the latter is more reasonable, but I’d like to ensure it. Thank you.
April 18, 2023 at 6:24 am #44419
The meanings of that can be grasped by start reading the previous verse:
The English translation is there is good until it gets to the verse you quoted, “anatthaṁ me acari, taṁ kutettha labbhā’ti āghātaṁ paṭivineti;.”
It is translated there as, “Thinking: ‘They did wrong to me, but what can I possibly do?’ you get rid of resentment.”
The bolded part of the translation is wrong.
- One must realize that any wrong one is subjected to comes from previous causes. Those who brought such abuses on you were only the “agents” bringing such abuses/suffering.
- It is a hetu/phala process described by Paticca Samuppada. As long as there are past causes (and present conditions) to bring their fruits, they will come.
- Ven. Moggalana was beaten to death. That was not because of what he did. It is a vipaka coming from previous deeds.
- Once one understands that, one will bear any unavoidable vipaka with equanimity (upekkha.) Thus, one must also NOT take kamma vipaka to be deterministic. Ven. Moggalana escaped from those people twice. The third time they came for him, he looked back at the cause and saw that it was an unavoidable vipaka from a trace of anantariya kamma left from long ago.
The correct translation is, “Thinking: ‘They did wrong to me, but that is only a result of a previous (unavoidable) kamma, you get rid of resentment.”
- We can avoid many kamma vipaka by taking precautions NOT TO create suitable conditions for (numerous) previous kamma from previous lives to bring their vipaka. As long as they are not traces of anantariya kamma, we can avoid most of them by living a moral life, avoiding confrontations, exercising, eating well, etc.
- See “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”
Many suttas explain that “this body is not yours; not someone else’s either.” It is a “hetu/phala.”
- See, for example, “Natumha Sutta (SN 12.37).”
April 18, 2023 at 5:40 pm #44421
Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
April 19, 2023 at 8:49 am #44422LayDhammaFollowerParticipant
Yes, Great Explanation.
Then the question arises,
Why is it so hard to accept the vipakā as it is?
My understanding is that,
Avijjā → Defiled Gati/Anusaya → triggered by ārammaṇa → taṇhā → Abhisaṅkhāra → Kamma viññāṇa → New kamma.
There is worldview that there is something to be gained by retaliation against vipakā.
How do you understand it?
April 20, 2023 at 8:01 am #44424
I think that it’s very difficult for us to look at a given situation and distinguish what’s the cause and what’s the condition. Actually, kammavipaka is an acinteyya topic. Infinite gives us many counterintuitive phenomena.
April 20, 2023 at 8:56 am #44425
1. We can sort things out by looking at the following sutta: “Paṭhamabhava Sutta (AN 3.76).”
The key verse is: “Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṁ khettaṁ, viññāṇaṁ bījaṁ, taṇhā sneho.”
It is insufficiently (mechanically) translated there as: ” So, Ānanda, deeds are the field, consciousness is the seed, and craving is the moisture.”
The correct translation: “So, Ānanda, deeds are the field, kamma viññāṇa (kamma bija) is the seed, and craving is the moisture.
Such kamma bija may have been created long ago (with kamma viññāṇa.) Such kammic energies (kamma bija) accumulate over time and can lead to vipāka during life or even rebirths (with paṭisandhi viññāṇa.)
- Viññāṇa is a complex word. One needs to sort out the meaning per context.
2. Now, we can compare a kamma bija to an ordinary seed. A seed can remain without giving rise to a tree for a long time if kept in a cool, dry place.
- However, if that seed is planted in a field and provided with water (moisture), it will germinate and grow into a tree.
- In the above analogy, the Buddha pointed out that a kamma bija may stay in viññāṇa dhātu for a long time without bringing their fruits.
- It is when we attach (taṇhā) to an ārammana (sensory input) and start doing kamma (with abhisaṅkhāra) that we make CONDITIONS for such kamma bija to bring vipāka.
3. Some strong kamma do not require suitable CONDITIONS to bring vipāka. They are the anantariya kamma. They will inevitably bring vipāka.
4. The above discussion refers only to vipāka that bring rebirths.
- In general, vipāka during a lifetime can occur as long as there is a physical body to bring vipāka.
- That is why even the Buddha suffered from some ailments.
- Furthermore, even seeing, hearing, etc., are vipāka in general!
- Many unpleasant vipāka during a lifetime can be avoided by not making CONDITIONS for them to appear. For example, going to a crime-ridden neighborhood at night is making conditions to bring vipāka. Eating junk food also creates conditions to bring vipāka (in the form of sicknesses.) We can think of many such examples.
April 21, 2023 at 6:36 pm #44445TripleGemStudentParticipantThe correct translation is, “Thinking: ‘They did wrong to me, but that is only a result of a previous (unavoidable) kamma, you get rid of resentment.”
I had a life experience that can relate to Lal’s translation.In 2019 while working at a job, I was already learning and practicing dhamma. Although far from perfect in practice, I did my best. I felt I fulfilled my duties and responsibilities and beyond as a worker and colleague. Never missed a day of work. Did my best to avoid akusala kamma especially vaci, such as not talking bad or behind people’s back, etc . . .I felt I was in good relations with my co-workers or so it seems . . . Long story short, one day at the end of my shift, my manager told me that I was being demoted (lesser paid). I was so surprised, I truly felt “what did I ever do while working here to deserve something like this?”. I felt my work performance was excellent, never done wrong to anyone at the work place and the demotion was unjustified and unfair.I don’t remember if I ever asked why I was being demoted. I was pretty upset at that time and knew that I shouldn’t say more because I might get even more upset. Thought it was a good idea to get out of there asap.My suspicious was that one or more of my colleague “influenced” my manager, making my manager believing and being influenced, leading to my demotion. What was most upsetting was that I never talked and minimized any bad thought that would harm my colleagues in any way. In fact, I felt I did more positive things for them than any wrongdoings.At that time I had two choices, either quit or choose to work there with lower pay, with people that I felt backstabbed me and being labeled as someone that got demoted (bruised ego).I think I just said something just like “okay” to my manager and got out of there as soon as I could to cool down. After removing myself from the contact, some time later, I thought of “what if that was from some current or previous lives’ vipaka?” After thinking like that for some time, I was mostly able to stop the wheeling of dukkha, although there were traces / remnants left.In the end I decided to stay at the workplace (only for a month and half longer). One of the two major reason’s why I chose not to quit at that time was because I believed that it was a really great opportunity for me to practice the dhamma, I really felt that.Imagine working / being in constant contact with the people who you felt had betrayed / backstabbed you and not giving into hate towards them and trying to forgive them. It was difficult at the beginning, but as time went on, I was able to slowly forgive others. At the time of quitting from the job, I held minimal to almost no resentment towards others and bitterness towards the situation that occurred.It was really thinking along the lines of “They did wrong to me, but that is only a result of a previous (unavoidable) kamma”, that helped me forgive others and to move on from the situation.
When I reflect back on my life from the last 10 plus years, mostly whenever some kind of event / situation / circumstance that seemed negative, unpleasant, undesirable, unwelcomed, etc., was happening at that time. At a later time, it turned out those events and experiences was actually beneficial and favorable for me. As I was placed in better conditions / situations (like work environment and other things) and the experiences helped with my dhamma practice in the long term.
April 21, 2023 at 7:52 pm #44450
Thanks for sharing your experience. Yes. It seems you did TWO right things.
- One was not to show anger to the manager and co-workers and to bear the unpleasantness. (Of course, it would have been OK to ask why you were demoted without showing anger. That information could be helpful in case if you did something wrong without realizing it.)
- The second was to leave the place ASAP.
The second point is important too. Vipaka materialize under suitable conditions. It might not have materialized if you had done the same work at a different place.
- All we can do is avoid conditions for the vipaka of the previous kamma to materialize. That is what I discussed in #4 of my above comment.
April 25, 2023 at 3:51 am #44482LayDhammaFollowerParticipant
Thanks for sharing your experience @TripleGemStudent!
I have been reading this thread for while now.
so, it seems we can say that,
A = B + C + D + E
A = vipaka = resulting music
B = external physical environment = Body = Radio itself
C = internal environment = Mindset/Bhava = Tuning of radio
D = Surrounding environment = Kind of people around us, physical location etc
E = kamma seeds = Various Radio stations broadcasting different audio
April 25, 2023 at 6:00 pm #44501TripleGemStudentParticipant
I’ll also add F = other factors / details that a Buddha only knows or that we might have missed.
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