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Suwapath wewa Lal,
Thank you for your reply. May any merits obtained from this sharing of the Buddha Dhamma, be shared with all the worldly living beings and help us all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana. Saddhu saddhu saddhu.
I feel that I made some small improvement in my thinking in regards to pleasure vs suffering in the rebirth process. I thought I would share it.
Imagine if someone offered you #1. That out of 365 days, you can spend 364 days in the deva & brahma realms and only 1 day in the lowest hell realms in exchange for not learning/practicing the Buddha Dhamma vs #2. 364 days of suffering in the human realm and 1 day of pleasure in the realms above humans. Your guaranteed to attain Nibbana within 7 existences. I’m sure the people who understands/see’s and is fully convinced of the Buddha Dhamma would take the second choice, but what about others if such an offer fell onto one’s lap?
This is how I would see choice #1 from Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta.
Anicca = Not to our liking, meaning even if I got what I like/desire for, in the end I’ll never be able to keep it or maintain it to the way I like. If I have understood Waharaka Thero correctly, he taught that one way to see Anicca is that if anything that’s Anicca, it’s vexatious. Although it’s very subtle, but sensual pleasures are vexatious. Even though one is enjoying pleasures, it’s vexatious because #1 one cannot keep or maintain the sensual pleasure to our liking. Even if we can keep the same sensual pleasure, the law of diminishing returns sets in #2 when it’s gone, we want more of it. Thereby creating further craving (tanha)/liking/wanting to fulfill the 5 aggregates. #3 When we have tanha and we don’t get what we want, it’s vexatious.
Dukkha = When we can’t keep or maintain the things we like them to be, we suffer FROM AND FOR it.
– What I mean by suffering FROM it, means it’s vexatious when we can’t keep or maintain the things we like them to be and wanting things to be to our liking but not getting it.
– What I mean by FOR it, is that we have to keep doing abhisankhara just trying to maintain/keep what we like or trying to get what we like. When we do abhisankhara, we are exhausting ourselves physically and mentally and keeping us in the rebirth process. Worse if we’re not careful and end up doing dasa akusala or apunnabi abhisankhara, we know the consequences . . .Anatta = If I’m trying to get what I like, but I’ll never end up getting what I like. It’s a helpless cause. It’s like trying to fill up a bucket with gold, but there’s a hole in the bottom of the bucket. Tell me that’s not a helpless cause :D
– As well it makes one helpless being in sansara, because one will just keep trying to get, keep and maintain what they like, but it will never happen. Worse, they end up in the apaya’s, then they are truly helpless. All of this suffering/pleasures there is no essence to it.So what would one choose? 364 days of pleasure and 1 day of suffering in hell. These pleasures are essence less, one can’t keep, maintain those pleasure. Because of that one suffers FROM and FOR it, as well one becomes a helpless cause in Sansara.
vs.
There’s a teaching in the Buddha Dhamma “If someone offered you, to be pierced by 100 spears a day for 100 years, in exchange you will know the four noble truths like never before”
364 days of suffering in the human realm, but one will know the four noble truths like never before.What would one choose? :)
I’ll choose to take the 100 spears and put an end to this suffering/pleasure cycle (rebirth process) as soon as I can because it’s a “helpless” cause to be in sansara.
Y not says:
“In real terms, this is not an altogether theoretical situation. Substitute the two groups with the ruled and the rulers”
Indeed . .
Let’s say unfortunately in our present time, we don’t have someone like Emperor Asoka ruling over the planet. From person C current perspective, Emperor Asoka is seen as a hope/wish/ideal,and doesn’t resolve person C current predicament. Even if Emperor Asoka was alive today, he would be helpless. The only thing he could do is take refuge in the triple gem.
Person C hopes what is being shared here can be of use to one’s own understanding of the Buddha Dhamma. May you all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
We have come to the Buddha from different backgrounds, occupations, habits, hobbies etc . . . For 17 years, person C habit/hobby was looking/following materials/information on papa kamma being committed on the general population. The general population is lied to/ignorant/doesn’t care about/of. Rather you believe him or think what he’s sharing is true or not, person C understands.
Person C truly feels fortunate/blessed to have come across the PureDhamma. As well, feels the 17 years of having this kind of habit/hobby was a prior cause taking effect and helps him/her to see from another view of what Lord Buddha taught about the “Hidden Suffering”.
Based on what person C has come to see/understand/know, one way how he views/feels this world as Anicca: “I have came into a world thinking it was to my liking, but its not or what I wished for. I’m not able keep/maintain what I like from all that I achieve/accomplish/acquire in this world. Dukkha: “Papa kamma is currently being committed, that will affect me, my family, and everybody else at some time/in some point. The frequency and cruelty of these papa kamma will only increase for sometime into the future. He feels dukkha because almost everyone are totally ignorant of the papa kamma being done onto them. One of the saddest thing is, themselves creates/allows it to happen. Anatta: “Even seeing/knowing/thinking this, overall, one is helpless to stop the effects/fruits of certain karma in all living beings who are ignorant of the Dhamma. So sad . . .
With this view/feeling, person C does his best to understand there’s no point of hate/anger/aversion/delusion to any of this.
Being in the present time and place, person C feels super fortunate/grateful/blessed to be where he/she is today. He/she would never want it any different, even in this kind of world. Being born as a human, on the only planet in Buddhist star systems where Lord Buddha is born in. With the family he/she has, coming across Buddha Dhamma taught by Ariya’s, and have the opportunity to learn/practice it. How can one not be grateful, feel fortunate and blessed?
Recalling what Lord Buddha said about taking on the offer of getting stabbed/pierced by 300 spears everyday for 100 years, if it can help one to understand the four noble truths like one never realized before. (Please correct any mistake/make clear of any mistakes I told about this 300 spears teaching. It’s from Sattisata Sutta, used Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation.)
Person C, feels in his current position, even if no one guarantees him that offer. Based on what he knows/understands/sees about the Buddha Dhamma. It’s still worth to take the 300 spears for 100 years (Currently being alive in our worldly current/future circumstances and having to go through the kamma vipaka that’s to come).
Lal from the forum post on agganna sutta
3. Things started going “downhill” when old “bad gati” started to come back in those early humans. With them came more and more hardships.
– Are humans today any better than those early humans? Person C can answer that, most likely/definitely not.
“With them came more and more hardships”
– You got that right, and it’s going to be more and more and more and more hardships. I wish us all the best. May we all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
“Things started going downhill when old bad gati started to come back.”
-If things are going downhill back then, then person C will describe our world, the humans today and into the future for long periods of time as “falling off a cliff”.4. After long times (probably hundreds of millions of years), they lost “free food” and had to grow food
– Yup, we have to grow food, currently/soon the food that will be grown/eaten, I wouldn’t even call it food. Let’s call it, scientific man-made food/non-nutrious/poison. Yummm
5. Furthermore, their desire for sexual relationships also cam back, and that is when the bodies got denser and sex organs started to appear.
– Sex with spouse okay. Sex with other that are of appropriate age okay. But that’s not enough now. *Coughs* certain people need their papa kamma fantasy fulfill by under agers now. Oh wait, that has been happening for thousands of years. Welcome to the new norm/world.
To finish up all this, person C will share what choices he has decided to make out of all this or what choices he thinks is the most skillful/wise in the scenario described from the opening post. Even he is surprised at himself for being able to choose these choices and what he will be sharing, his only hope is, it will help one to attain Nibbana.
Ohhh that’s right, person C almost forgot to share this little teaser. Think of what’s happening in the world right now and add this little teaser to it (barely the tip of the ice berg hahaha . . . ) Think of it as you like :)
Bill Gates direct quote
“The world has 6.8 billion people . . . that’s headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 to 15 percent”I wish us all the best :) —To be continued—
After the e-mail with you Lal, I wrote to y not and I also added this in.
To sum that up or in other words. How can we even start to compare any pleasure gained through sansara vs Nibbana? Anything else besides Nibbana is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. We shouldn’t even think about the pleasure gained in the Brahma worlds in the first place.
Have we forgotten what Lord Buddha taught? :D Putting an stop the rebirth process and attain Nibbana. Why should we even think/talk about how much time we spend in the Brahma worlds or in hell? If we understood Lord Buddha’s teachings, then we should follow his advice. “Make haste and attain Nibbana as soon as possible” Regardless I actually enjoy more years of pleasure in the Brahma realms or not, it’s such a trivia/deluded/incorrect thinking. I should be taking Lord Buddha’s advice to make haste and attain Nibbana as soon as possible, because any pleasure gained in sansara is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and can’t even be compared to Nibbana.
What are we currently learning/practicing/working towards? NIBBANA. Anything short of Magga Phala is almost a failure on our part.
This is how I would answer to myself and others if they ever have similar thought/thinking/idea as Dr. J Chakam and I once did
“I think this discussion has gone far enough.
If there is a critical issue to address here, please send me an email with a BRIEF description.
– If such a critical issue is there, I will post it and address it.”– If that’s the case, I would like to continue my discussion with y not. y not, please send me an e-mail at [email protected]
Hi y not
“we spend 9 months on a good vacation while the remaining 3 months is tortured in the apaya’s?”
I do not clearly recall reading this. Perhaps possibly, but I am not sure.”– I clearly remembered reading that. I think the question and the answer to it is appropriate to describe what was asked, if my what I’m thinking is correct . . .
– I’m just wondering . . .approximately how many years is an antakkappa? 20 billion?
“I appreciate greatly your value of my contribution, but please now, these are not my teachings. One in the spiritual line of the Buddha discovered the true Teaching, taught it to another in the same line who became an Ariya as well. In my turn, I do my bit to be of help and support to others who may need it, adding my own insight and the fruits of my reflections at times as well, but always ready to be corrected myself.”
– Please continue to contribute/discuss as well. I feel a joy/gratitude to see your voice. I’m starting to understand why virtuous/noble friends is an important factor on the noble path. I got more to discuss/ask. I’ll type it at a later time.
y not
“It is said that the time it took Him to fulfil the paramita (the requirements) spanned the time of 512,000 Buddhas. Taking the number of Buddhas in the last 91 mahakappa, 8, with the estimated duration of a mahakappa ( 80 billion years) as an average, we get : 91/8 x 512,000 x 80×10^9 . Close to 5×10^17 years. Insignificant compared to the all the infinite time before.”
*Tries to calculate the numbers with his hand. . . .* Too big of a number for me . . . Don’t know how or can calculate for me . . . :D
” It is actually impossible, seeing that, until the attainments, most births are in the apaya.”
I’m just wondering when you say most births. Does that exclude the destruction/remain in state of the Solar system and only applies for the 10 billion year reformation of Earth?
I thought we did spend most births/time in the apaya’s, but recently someone brought up a discussion about the destruction/reforming process of the Earth/Star system in the Waharaka Thero’s English discourse sub and how we actually spend more time in the Brahma realms? Lal said something along the lines as an example that we spend 9 months on a good vacation while the remaining 3 months is tortured in the apaya’s? I can no longer find the posts in that sub. Are the posts deleted or moved?
Maybe my knowing/understanding is totally off, but after the above discussion, it seems to me in simple terms that we spend about 30 billion years in the Deva/Brahma realms, and then after the Earth is reformed, the remaining 10 billion years, we come down to the lower realms? From there we start to spend more time in the apaya’s for the 10 billion years. To me, based on this thinking, we seem to actually spend more time in the Brahma realms?
Btw, thank you for your contribution and teachings y not.
Hi Lal,
There’s also a Jataka story of the Bodhisattva being in hell.”
I don’t think that is right.
– The lowest realm a Bodhisatta can be reborn is the animal realm. Even there, The animal cannot be smaller than a certain size.I made a mistake in using the word “Bodhisatta”. The story uses “one of Buddha’s former lives when he was in hell” If this story is true, I think the chances of such a thing happening is even more rare than the two animal stories . . .
The alternative way you mentioned to look at the question that I asked was beneficial. Thank you.
Hi Lal,
“There is nothing an animal, for example, can do until that life ends (by the life I mean that bhava, which can last thousands of years at a time).”
I remembered there’s two stories that I have come across where a Frog after it got killed, was birthed into the Deva realms and another story of some bats were able birth into the Deva realms due to some monks chanting in the cave. Can we say that in those two stories, the animals were at the end of their Bhava? You said that “there’s nothing an animal can do until that life ends”. Would it be appropriate to say that, having come across the Buddha Dhamma and done meritorious deeds in their previous Jati’s/Bhava’s. As well being in the right place at the right time, they had the opportunity to be birth in the Deva realms, (sooner?) because of that? Or is it, because their Bhava was coming to an end anyways, and their next Bhava was in the Deva realms, regardless being in the right place at the right time?
There’s also a Jataka story of the Bodhisattva being in hell. To make a long story short, he did/show something compassionate, and the other hell being that was next to him, did something similar and they found themselves born in the human realm after that. I don’t know what to think about this story, but if such a thing happened, it would be super rare. I can’t even begin to imagine the odds of that happening for almost any living being else besides the Bodhisattva. . .
I’m just wondering, besides your post on “the chance of being born a human or a Buddha appearing in our world” Is there any stories or teachings on like . . . umm . . . I’m not sure, but “how hard” or how much meritorious deeds we had to do just to get a human birth? If there is, I would like to use it as kind of motivation for myself and others to walk/continue to walk on the path. Thanks
Metta,
Lal says: “You seem the have realized that we are chasing a mirage”
– I would say that’s a nice way of saying things :) It seems like I’m also walking to a death trap or chasing a trap of “perceived pleasures” that is a (mirage) which only leads me to more suffering with no end until realize that I’m walking into a trap and will have to suffer tremendously. – So beautiful to realize such an realization :)
11:15 – 13:33 of the video
Helped me to be able to explain to myself and possibly to others how the “God” or “Creator” concept can be explained in a different way. I remember reading something similar from somewhere, maybe it was on this website. The teaching from the video was a helpful reminder and teaching.
Thank you for the feedback and teaching Lal. Theruwan Saranayi.
Thank you Lal,
After I wrote what I did, I realized it might not be sufficient or most appropriate. It seems like I was missing #1 in my summary. Thanks again, your post was clear and helpful.
Thank you y not. Much merits to you as well. May these merits help us all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
Group B plans, carry’s out, and some takes delight/pleasure in these papa kamma’s. Some intents to kill, while others only care about maximum profits, willing to commit any papa and akusala kamma’s. The papa and akusala kamma’s being committed is mostly random, sometimes targeted. Like a bomb going off and hurting people.
Saddest part is Group A is so blind/deluded/ignorant, that they unconsciously willing to let Group B, plan/carry out these papa kamma’s in front of their faces without even knowing it’s happening. For some, even if people are able to show/provide evidence to them. Majority in group A would think it’s not possible/the evidence is false/doesn’t care. As well, they are the very same people that allows/put the people in Group B in power. Group B controls the whole world in every aspects. Governments/Health industry/Finance/World Organizations/media, etc . . .
Why person C hesitates to tell/show the people in group A is because some of the characteristics of the people in Group A being described as above. As well if people in Group A know’s what people in group B is planning/carrying out, it could create even more hate/anger/fear. Person C could argue, the phase “ignorance is bliss” could be applied for this case . . .
Lal says “Unless this is a real issue, it is not even worth to contemplate too much on “theoretical” cases like this one.”
Unfortunately Person C sees/knows/thinks this is a real case with the same conviction like he has for the triple gem. In fact, he/she believes that this real case has been happening for thousands of years, in the present, and will continue to do so in the future. One can let their imagination run wild, whatever papa kamma one can think off. Person C can almost guarantee it’s being committed and might be even worse than what one can imagine.
Person C is in group A, fortunately he/she has the triple gem. Let’s say, person C thinks if he/she didn’t know the triple gem. Dying naturally asap would be the best choice than what some of the people in Group A will have to go through. Imagine the people in group A are being poisoned slowly (getting sicker). Food and medicine that’s suppose to help people, only makes/keeps them sick. While going through life, being/continue to be exploited at every chance. Continuous being lied to from the very people that’s SUPPOSE TO PROTECT AND SERVER THEM. All one has worked for is being stolen from all because of manipulation, lies, deceptions and greed. For some, not only they have to deal with physical pain/illness, but also the mental torture of how they are going to pay their bills, when they can eat their next meal, how they and their family can survive or if they have shelter. The saddest thing is that the people in Group A doesn’t even know/see/care this is happening. Even if one knows/sees without wisdom, they are still not able to do anything about it. One is so blindly attached to this world, they are almost forced to commit akusala or papa kamma deeds just to survive or have a more “comfortable” life. Tell me, if one knows/sees/convinced about all this, without the triple gem. How does one move forward in this kind of world or situation?
One might say, well Person C better try to tell/show Group A !! But it’s not that simple, Person C also sees/knows/understands that even if he/she can stop all this. What’s to guarantee that person C can stop it a second time and it’s not going to happen again? Person C will share why he/she is totally helpless in these worldly affairs :) I’ll continue on later. May you all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
I would like to sincerely thank you all involved with translating, editing and uploading of these desana’s of Waharaka Thero’s. These video’s has brought me tremendous benefit and as well everyone’s work of sharing the Dhamma here on this website. I truly appreciate it. Thank you and much merits to you all. Saddhu saddhu saddhu
