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There are two aspects to the First Noble Truth.
1. There is hidden suffering in attaching to worldly things. An average human thinks highly of kama assada or sensory pleasures. But because of their tendency to do “whatever it takes” to fulfill sensory desires, average humans are tempted to do immoral things.
– Some people think they will not do immoral things. But that is only because they have not been subjected to high-enough temptation.2. Because of the above, average humans inevitably are reborn in the four realms at some point in the future. Suffering in those realms is worse than the suffering endured by ANY human.
That is one version of the “previously unheard Dhamma” of the Buddha.
– Even though they may get a temporary sensory satisfaction by “somehow fulfilling those desires” they pay for that when they are reborn in the apayas.A good analogy is a fish biting a tasty bait. There is a momentary pleasure (when seeing the tasty bait), followed by unbearable suffering.
– But unlike in that case, suffering in the rebirth process is not immediate. -
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The critical point is how to “see” the unfruitfulness AND dangers of kama assada instead of seeing their pleasures as we normally tend to do.
The Buddha said to contemplate on the long-term bad consequences (adinava) of kama assada.
Any object in the world that provides such kama assada has anicca, dukkha, viparinama nature.
– That means one CANNOT maintain that to one’s satisfaction in the long run. Thus, it WILL bring suffering in the long-term when it INEVITABLY undergoes its unexpected changes/destruction (viparinama).
– Even if the object itself does not appear to do any of those three, one’s sensory faculties are subjected to those three characteristics.
– For example, a gold ring that one craves may not appear to have anicca, dukkha, viparinama nature during one’s lifetime (unless it is stolen or one may be forced to sell it in an emergency). But the person himself is subjected to the anicca, dukkha, viparinama nature. Thus, there is no escape.That is a simple analysis.
– A deeper aspect is that as long as one has cravings for such things, one would not be free of the kama loka.
– Of course, one only starts “seeing” this picture (Samma Ditthi) at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– Such cravings (or the corresponding wrong “sanna” or the “perception of value”) will be completely removed from the mind only at the Anagami stage.
– However, part of the wrong “sanna” will be removed even at the Sotapanna Anugami stage. That is why one would not do apayagami actions to get such sensory pleasures after the Sotapanna Anugami stage.Thus anicca nature needs to be contemplated with such examples. Just reading up on anicca, dukkha, anatta is not going to do anything.
– By the way, anatta means that one will never be able to free of the rebirth process as long as one does not see the above picture. One WILL become helpless when one is reborn in an apaya. There is nothing an animal, for example, can do until that life ends (by the life I mean that bhava, which can last thousands of years at a time). -
Hi Lal,
“There is nothing an animal, for example, can do until that life ends (by the life I mean that bhava, which can last thousands of years at a time).”
I remembered there’s two stories that I have come across where a Frog after it got killed, was birthed into the Deva realms and another story of some bats were able birth into the Deva realms due to some monks chanting in the cave. Can we say that in those two stories, the animals were at the end of their Bhava? You said that “there’s nothing an animal can do until that life ends”. Would it be appropriate to say that, having come across the Buddha Dhamma and done meritorious deeds in their previous Jati’s/Bhava’s. As well being in the right place at the right time, they had the opportunity to be birth in the Deva realms, (sooner?) because of that? Or is it, because their Bhava was coming to an end anyways, and their next Bhava was in the Deva realms, regardless being in the right place at the right time?
There’s also a Jataka story of the Bodhisattva being in hell. To make a long story short, he did/show something compassionate, and the other hell being that was next to him, did something similar and they found themselves born in the human realm after that. I don’t know what to think about this story, but if such a thing happened, it would be super rare. I can’t even begin to imagine the odds of that happening for almost any living being else besides the Bodhisattva. . .
I’m just wondering, besides your post on “the chance of being born a human or a Buddha appearing in our world” Is there any stories or teachings on like . . . umm . . . I’m not sure, but “how hard” or how much meritorious deeds we had to do just to get a human birth? If there is, I would like to use it as kind of motivation for myself and others to walk/continue to walk on the path. Thanks
Metta,
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“I remembered there’s two stories that I have come across where a Frog after it got killed, was birthed into the Deva realms and another story of some bats were able birth into the Deva realms due to some monks chanting in the cave. Can we say that in those two stories, the animals were at the end of their Bhava?”
– It may be possible for those things to happen even if they had not reached the end of the bhava. But those are VERY rare.
– When the gandhabba comes out of the body at death, if the causes and conditions line up, it is possible that it may grasp a new bhava.
– Workings of the kamma, in fine detail, can only be done by a Buddha.“There’s also a Jataka story of the Bodhisattva being in hell.”
I don’t think that is right.
– The lowest realm a Bodhisatta can be reborn is the animal realm. Even there, The animal cannot be smaller than a certain size.“..how much meritorious deeds we had to do just to get a human birth?”
An alternative way to look at this could be helpful.
– We all are likely to ALREADY (in previous lives) have done kamma to be born in the lower realms as well as higher realms.
– One could be mindfully engaged in punna (kusala) kamma and avoid papa (akusala) kamma to be able to grasp a “good kamma seed” rather than a bad one.
– But the only way to guarantee that a bad seed will not be grasped is to get to at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage. That is by comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada.. -
Hi Lal,
There’s also a Jataka story of the Bodhisattva being in hell.”
I don’t think that is right.
– The lowest realm a Bodhisatta can be reborn is the animal realm. Even there, The animal cannot be smaller than a certain size.I made a mistake in using the word “Bodhisatta”. The story uses “one of Buddha’s former lives when he was in hell” If this story is true, I think the chances of such a thing happening is even more rare than the two animal stories . . .
The alternative way you mentioned to look at the question that I asked was beneficial. Thank you.
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Hello there TripleGemStudent,
(I got it right this time!)
Here is my contribution:
I too had read something about “one of Buddha’s former lives when he was in hell”.
And also, if I remember correctly, it was only for a very short span of time. But I am not sure here whether that was about a Chief Disciple rather.
However, the perplexity arises from the use of the word ‘Buddha’.
If taken in the sense of ‘the one WHO HAS SINCE become a Buddha’ the notion is not at all startling. That is, before he even set out on the path to become a bodhisatta, before all that he had been just a normal being drifting in sansara from a time without beginning, just like the rest of the beings. And the records in the nama gotta are not limited to the past 91 mahakappa. They go back infinitely into the past. Just as he had been a Boddhisatta before becoming a Buddha, He had been a normal being in sansara before that. But we keep referring to Him as the Buddha in all circumstances, because that is what he finally achieved. Like when we say: the Professor was a student at so-and-so College (Now he is no longer a student at that college)
It is said that the time it took Him to fulfil the paramita (the requirements) spanned the time of 512,000 Buddhas. Taking the number of Buddhas in the last 91 mahakappa, 8, with the estimated duration of a mahakappa ( 80 billion years) as an average, we get : 91/8 x 512,000 x 80×10^9 . Close to 5×10^17 years. Insignificant compared to the all the infinite time before.
So there is no reason why a normal (until that time) being in sansara, including those later to become Boddhisattas and Buddhas, should be exempt from the hells. It is actually impossible, seeing that, until the attainments, most births are in the apaya.
with Metta
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y not
“It is said that the time it took Him to fulfil the paramita (the requirements) spanned the time of 512,000 Buddhas. Taking the number of Buddhas in the last 91 mahakappa, 8, with the estimated duration of a mahakappa ( 80 billion years) as an average, we get : 91/8 x 512,000 x 80×10^9 . Close to 5×10^17 years. Insignificant compared to the all the infinite time before.”
*Tries to calculate the numbers with his hand. . . .* Too big of a number for me . . . Don’t know how or can calculate for me . . . :D
” It is actually impossible, seeing that, until the attainments, most births are in the apaya.”
I’m just wondering when you say most births. Does that exclude the destruction/remain in state of the Solar system and only applies for the 10 billion year reformation of Earth?
I thought we did spend most births/time in the apaya’s, but recently someone brought up a discussion about the destruction/reforming process of the Earth/Star system in the Waharaka Thero’s English discourse sub and how we actually spend more time in the Brahma realms? Lal said something along the lines as an example that we spend 9 months on a good vacation while the remaining 3 months is tortured in the apaya’s? I can no longer find the posts in that sub. Are the posts deleted or moved?
Maybe my knowing/understanding is totally off, but after the above discussion, it seems to me in simple terms that we spend about 30 billion years in the Deva/Brahma realms, and then after the Earth is reformed, the remaining 10 billion years, we come down to the lower realms? From there we start to spend more time in the apaya’s for the 10 billion years. To me, based on this thinking, we seem to actually spend more time in the Brahma realms?
Btw, thank you for your contribution and teachings y not.
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“Does that exclude the destruction/remain in state of the Solar system and only applies for the 10 billion year reformation of Earth?” Yes.. See below.
“we spend 9 months on a good vacation while the remaining 3 months is tortured in the apaya’s?”
I do not clearly recall reading this. Perhaps possibly, but I am not sure.You are right there, TripleGemStudent!
When we say ‘most births are in the apaya’ we mean those brought about by the process of upadhana, abhisakhara and kamma vipaka > bhava > jati. Those bring about results in the various planes WHEN those planes are in existence. When they are not, all beings transfer to realms above the Abhassara brahma realm out of necessity, as it were (or forced). Once those lower realms are reformed, the beings gradually ‘find their place’ according to their gati.
If you are not aware of it, those 4 gradual stages of: duration , process of destruction, state of destruction (non- manifestation), and reformation have been revised to 20 billion years from 10 billion following a comment by the participant Zapper to accord with the duration of three brahma realms. See ‘Dhamma and Science Forum: Confusion about maha kappa’
Your ‘knowing/understanding’ is far from off, 3GS. It seems to me you are able to spot the slightest thing that does not, or may not, make sense. Quite like Zapper, in fact. Guarding against blind belief remains paramount, from wherever and whomsoever the ‘information’ is coming from. Investigation and reflection are in fact tools to get to the Truth.
I appreciate greatly your value of my contribution, but please now, these are not my teachings. One in the spiritual line of the Buddha discovered the true Teaching, taught it to another in the same line who became an Ariya as well. In my turn, I do my bit to be of help and support to others who may need it, adding my own insight and the fruits of my reflections at times as well, but always ready to be corrected myself.
with Metta
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Hi y not
“we spend 9 months on a good vacation while the remaining 3 months is tortured in the apaya’s?”
I do not clearly recall reading this. Perhaps possibly, but I am not sure.”– I clearly remembered reading that. I think the question and the answer to it is appropriate to describe what was asked, if my what I’m thinking is correct . . .
– I’m just wondering . . .approximately how many years is an antakkappa? 20 billion?
“I appreciate greatly your value of my contribution, but please now, these are not my teachings. One in the spiritual line of the Buddha discovered the true Teaching, taught it to another in the same line who became an Ariya as well. In my turn, I do my bit to be of help and support to others who may need it, adding my own insight and the fruits of my reflections at times as well, but always ready to be corrected myself.”
– Please continue to contribute/discuss as well. I feel a joy/gratitude to see your voice. I’m starting to understand why virtuous/noble friends is an important factor on the noble path. I got more to discuss/ask. I’ll type it at a later time.
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Thank you triple Gem Student !
It is my pleasure too.
“we spend 9 months on a good vacation while the remaining 3 months is tortured in the apaya’s?”
Indeed so – just because I may not remember reading it does not mean that statement is not correct. On the contrary, going into it further(as we are doing here) indicates it IS correct, just as you have pointed out as well.
“– I’m just wondering . . .approximately how many years is an antakkappa? 20 billion?”
“These original suddhāṭṭhaka have lifetimes of close to 20 antakkappa (or antarākappa in Sinhala), where 80 such antakkappa are in a mahā kappa.” See the post:(/abhidhamma/the-origin-of-matter-suddhatthaka/) # 8
Going by this alone, since 80 anantakappa make a maha kappa, then 20 anatakappa correspond exactly to the length of any of the four phases of : duration process of destruction, state of destruction (non- manifestation), and reformation. AND – this was written in November 2015 and revised as late as February 2020, well before Zapper brought up the matter that 10 billion years (by previous estimates) for any of the 4 phases cannot be correct. Therefore, it would indeed appear that one anantakappa corresponds to twenty billion years. I now hope I have got this right myself!!
I am delighted that you make mention of the importance of gratitude. Not many seem to do so; at least not as far as giving open expression to it goes. Without first becoming acquainted with a ‘Noble Friend’it is impossible to get a glimpse of the Path, let alone get on It. Without this compassion of the Noble Ones we would roam on and on in sansara, enmeshed in delusion and the resultant suffering. Hence, no amount of even expressing this Gratitude can do justice, can adequately recompense, that which we have been given. Best we can do is to share merits with Them; as with all other beings too – we do not know how many have helped us in the beginningless past, even if in the moral sense alone, which is a prerequisite to get to the stage where one becomes able to comprehend the Dhamma. Being ever conscious of all this in turn brings merits to ourselves. But that must not be the motive. Let that not be the motive. In fact, it CANNOT be the motive if that gratitude is deep and sincere.
However, most associations we have had have been with those who have hindered us, with the ‘wordly’ people. Even now. Towards these we must have compassion instead, having once realized for ourselves the amount of suffering in store for ordinary beings.
Lastly, it would be more beneficial to you and to everyone else, if you get answers from other readers as well.
with Metta
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“…it would indeed appear that one anantakappa corresponds to twenty billion years. I now hope I have got this right myself!!”
See? I did NOT get it right. Any of the four phases lasts twenty anantakappa (twenty billion years); so,in reply to the question, one anantakappa would equate with ONE billion years.
We do not need to give overdue importance to the actual lenght. It cannot be changed, whether we find out how long it is exactly or not, whether we think about it or not. What we CAN change is our destiny.
What is important is to realize that we have to do what is necessary NOW to get onto and to advance on the Path, during that ‘duration’ phase, however long it is in actual fact.
with Metta
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y not and Tripelgemstudent:
The four phases of a “world cycle” (formation phase, existing phase, destruction phase, remaining in that destroyed phase) are each 20 antakkappas.
The Buddha did not give the extent of 20 antakkappas in terms of billions of years.
– In the Agganna Sutta, he just stated that it is a “very long time.”
– When asked to give a simile he gave the following simile (in a different sutta): “Consider a granite mountain that is 7 yojanas in all 3 dimensions (a cube). If one were to sweep over the mountain with a cloth once every 100 years, the time to wear out the mountain is that time.”I did an estimate of that time in one of the early posts. That may have where I got the 20 billion number. I just checked on Google and see that the lifetime of the Sun is 10-12 billion years. But that is not necessarily the lifetime of Earth, which could be longer. It may have taken a long time for the Sun to initiate the fusion process in the core.
So, I think the 20 billion number is good enough to get an idea. Of course, we do not know the correct value.
– It is good enough just to get an idea that it is a “very long time.”I think this discussion has gone far enough.
If there is a critical issue to address here, please send me an email with a BRIEF description.
– If such a critical issue is there, I will post it and address it. -
“I think this discussion has gone far enough.
If there is a critical issue to address here, please send me an email with a BRIEF description.
– If such a critical issue is there, I will post it and address it.”– If that’s the case, I would like to continue my discussion with y not. y not, please send me an e-mail at [email protected]
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Triplegemstudent wrote to me and we had a discussion via email. I am just going to post one of my emails and his last email.
My email:
This issue was discussed at:
“Post on “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)”
The essence of the discussion is in my following reply there, close to the top of the thread, was as follows:“Dr. J Chakma wrote: “Out of 4 antakkappas a living being spend 3 anatakkappas (i.e. 75% time of a mahakappa) in Brahma realm (Abhassara) and enjoy jhanic pleasure. However, Buddha told this sansara is full of suffering (dukha and dukkha). So, a being even if it spent rest of the mahakappa in apayas, the being still spends 75% of time in Good realm (abhassara realm). So, theoretically a being enjoys more than it suffers.”
That is correct.
But as you said after that, the suffering, while it lasts, is unbearable.To get a perspective consider the following scenario: If one is given the opportunity to enjoy all the comforts in the world for 9 months on the condition that one would then be subjected to various forms of torture (burned alive, cut into pieces only to reassembled instantaneously and to go through the whole process again, etc) incessantly for the next 3 months, would that be acceptable?
I don’t think one would even agree to one day of such suffering even for 9 months of luxurious living.”
Then I asked the Triplegemstudent:
Would you take that offer?
Imagine the worst suffering that you ever experienced in your life.
– Suffering in an apaya is MUCH worse. We can get a glimpse of it by thinking about an animal in the wild (not a pet). How many old animals are in a jungle? They are eaten alive as soon as they get a bit old.Following is part of the final response of the Triplegemstudent:
“I read the whole discussion before and that’s why the idea/thought came to my mind. I wasn’t able to find a satisfactory answer including what you, myself or anyone answered. In my previous e-mail before this one, what I was trying to say was what I came to realize is what me and Dr. J Chakam is/was thinking/saying how we spend more time in the Brahma realms and therefore “should” be enjoying more pleasure is the wrong/incorrect thinking.
Because rather one is enjoying more pleasure or suffering, it’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta in any of the 31 realms of existence. As long as we’re stuck in the rebirth process Sansara, not attaining Magga phala or Nibbana, the end result is always more suffering. And like you said, the suffering in the apaya is much worse and possibly greater > than any pleasures we receive.
So even when I get to enjoy 9 months of pleasure, that’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. That 9 months of pleasure is Anatta, unfruitful/no essence/no refuge. That would be the same as the 3 months suffering for it.
Because that 9 and 3 months is both Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta I shouldn’t/don’t want to even to get involved with the pleasure or suffering in the first place because all that is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. It’s better to attain Magga Phala/Nibbana, so that I don’t even have to make such a decision/or be in that position like in your example in the first place.
This is what I meant when I said, what me and Dr. J Chakma was thinking is wrong/incorrect.”
My comment:
I am impressed by his reply.
He wrote: “So even when I get to enjoy 9 months of pleasure, that’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. That 9 months of pleasure is Anatta, unfruitful/no essence/no refuge. That would be the same as the 3 months suffering for it.”He realized the deeper aspect of it. That is in a way the First Noble Truth that the Buddha was trying to explain.
– What we PERCEIVE to be a pleasure (in sensory pleasures or even in jhanic pleasures in those Brahma realms) has “hidden suffering.” The more one is enamored by them, the more difficult it becomes to be able to free of ALL future suffering. -
After the e-mail with you Lal, I wrote to y not and I also added this in.
To sum that up or in other words. How can we even start to compare any pleasure gained through sansara vs Nibbana? Anything else besides Nibbana is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. We shouldn’t even think about the pleasure gained in the Brahma worlds in the first place.
Have we forgotten what Lord Buddha taught? :D Putting an stop the rebirth process and attain Nibbana. Why should we even think/talk about how much time we spend in the Brahma worlds or in hell? If we understood Lord Buddha’s teachings, then we should follow his advice. “Make haste and attain Nibbana as soon as possible” Regardless I actually enjoy more years of pleasure in the Brahma realms or not, it’s such a trivia/deluded/incorrect thinking. I should be taking Lord Buddha’s advice to make haste and attain Nibbana as soon as possible, because any pleasure gained in sansara is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and can’t even be compared to Nibbana.
What are we currently learning/practicing/working towards? NIBBANA. Anything short of Magga Phala is almost a failure on our part.
This is how I would answer to myself and others if they ever have similar thought/thinking/idea as Dr. J Chakam and I once did
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I feel that I made some small improvement in my thinking in regards to pleasure vs suffering in the rebirth process. I thought I would share it.
Imagine if someone offered you #1. That out of 365 days, you can spend 364 days in the deva & brahma realms and only 1 day in the lowest hell realms in exchange for not learning/practicing the Buddha Dhamma vs #2. 364 days of suffering in the human realm and 1 day of pleasure in the realms above humans. Your guaranteed to attain Nibbana within 7 existences. I’m sure the people who understands/see’s and is fully convinced of the Buddha Dhamma would take the second choice, but what about others if such an offer fell onto one’s lap?
This is how I would see choice #1 from Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta.
Anicca = Not to our liking, meaning even if I got what I like/desire for, in the end I’ll never be able to keep it or maintain it to the way I like. If I have understood Waharaka Thero correctly, he taught that one way to see Anicca is that if anything that’s Anicca, it’s vexatious. Although it’s very subtle, but sensual pleasures are vexatious. Even though one is enjoying pleasures, it’s vexatious because #1 one cannot keep or maintain the sensual pleasure to our liking. Even if we can keep the same sensual pleasure, the law of diminishing returns sets in #2 when it’s gone, we want more of it. Thereby creating further craving (tanha)/liking/wanting to fulfill the 5 aggregates. #3 When we have tanha and we don’t get what we want, it’s vexatious.
Dukkha = When we can’t keep or maintain the things we like them to be, we suffer FROM AND FOR it.
– What I mean by suffering FROM it, means it’s vexatious when we can’t keep or maintain the things we like them to be and wanting things to be to our liking but not getting it.
– What I mean by FOR it, is that we have to keep doing abhisankhara just trying to maintain/keep what we like or trying to get what we like. When we do abhisankhara, we are exhausting ourselves physically and mentally and keeping us in the rebirth process. Worse if we’re not careful and end up doing dasa akusala or apunnabi abhisankhara, we know the consequences . . .Anatta = If I’m trying to get what I like, but I’ll never end up getting what I like. It’s a helpless cause. It’s like trying to fill up a bucket with gold, but there’s a hole in the bottom of the bucket. Tell me that’s not a helpless cause :D
– As well it makes one helpless being in sansara, because one will just keep trying to get, keep and maintain what they like, but it will never happen. Worse, they end up in the apaya’s, then they are truly helpless. All of this suffering/pleasures there is no essence to it.So what would one choose? 364 days of pleasure and 1 day of suffering in hell. These pleasures are essence less, one can’t keep, maintain those pleasure. Because of that one suffers FROM and FOR it, as well one becomes a helpless cause in Sansara.
vs.
There’s a teaching in the Buddha Dhamma “If someone offered you, to be pierced by 100 spears a day for 100 years, in exchange you will know the four noble truths like never before”
364 days of suffering in the human realm, but one will know the four noble truths like never before.What would one choose? :)
I’ll choose to take the 100 spears and put an end to this suffering/pleasure cycle (rebirth process) as soon as I can because it’s a “helpless” cause to be in sansara.
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Just would like to share something that might be of benefit to others in understanding about the 4 noble truths.
from 19:40-29:02 minutes.This is the only resource/material in English so far that I came across that gives an explanation of what the “Pi” is in jati-pi dukkha, jara-pi dukkha, maranam-pi dukkha from the first noble truth. If the “pi” is piya like mentioned in the video then that really opens up some new possibilities for a individual to gain further understanding about the noble truths.
Just wondering if anyone else come across any teachings or have any opinions on what is taught in the video in regards to “pi” from the first noble truth?
For those who don’t know what piya is, this is what I found from doing a search on the puredhamma website.
“6. We attach to things that we like. This “attachment” is described in several ways by the Buddha: icchā, taṇhā, nandi, piya, kāma, etc. When exposed to such ‘likable things” in this world, we become joyful and try to get more of them, even using immoral deeds.”
As well there’s this sutta. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tipitaka/mn/mn.087.than.html
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