September 4, 2020 at 11:04 am #31927LalKeymaster
The following post is by Triplegemstudent:
Hi everyone, just wondering if anyone can share some Lord Buddha teachings or their knowledge/wisdom on what would be the most skillful/wise choice for person C from the scenario below, it would be much appreciated.
Imagine there are two groups of people. Group A = majority of people, Group B = a minority people.
The people in group B plans and carry out papa kamma actions on Group A, that’s going to cause tremendous suffering/pain to the people in Group A. The people of Group A doesn’t know this is happening/coming. Now comes person C who knows/sees with 100% conviction of what Group B is doing, as well have evidence that show’s what Group B is doing .
Person C wants to tell/share this evidence with Group A. But based on person C understanding/knowing/seeing of the Dhamma, he/she is afraid what he/she tells/shows the people in Group A will cause hate/anger within them. But if he/she doesn’t try to tell/show the people in Group A of what the people in Group B is planning/carrying out. Person C can only watch the people in Group B plan/carry out their papa kamma actions/deeds that inflict a tremendous amount of suffering/pain on the people in Group A, which also includes person C’s own family members and people he/she knows.
Person C also thinks, if Group A see this evidence, it’s possible to stop the people in Group B from their Papa kamma actions/deeds for the time being (hopefully help them lessen their papa kamma action/deeds) and quite possibly a lot of suffering/pain of the people in Group A can be avoided . . . but at the cost of anger/hate in the people from Group A..
Overall person C thinks that sitting on the sidelines, walking away from mundane worldly problems, while striving/attaining Maga Phala for oneself and helping others to do the same is the most wise/skillful thing to do.
From this scenario, what would be the most skillful/wise thing for Person C? A) Strive/attain magga phala for oneself while helping others to do the same. “Try” to tell/show the people in Group A about what the people in Group B are planning/carrying out. Or B) walk away from this mundane worldly problem, not tell/show Group A, watch Group B carry out their papa kamma on the people in group A. Strive/attain magga phala for oneself while helping others do the same.
September 4, 2020 at 2:29 pm #31929
Whatever action this person C takes in respect of Groups A and B, his eventual attainment of magga phala will prove beneficial not only to himself, but to other beings eventually. The collective future suffering he saves others from outweighs immeasurably any suffering they may undergo now.
Should he help just one person get onto the Path, the suffering prevented in this way in the apayas will be many times over what all those people suffer now at the hands of Group B. Their suffering is after all only in the human realm.
So, for me it’s: “Strive/attain magga phala for oneself while helping others do the same”
Thank you Axel.
Much merits to you.
September 4, 2020 at 2:50 pm #31930
Wosh! Sorry about that Triplegemstudent.
September 4, 2020 at 8:07 pm #31932LalKeymaster
It helps to first clarify exactly where kammic effects could manifest.
We are talking about committing murder.
For the kamma of taking a life to be “complete”, the following four steps need to be completed: there must be a living being, one must know that it is alive and one must have the intention to kill that being, one plans and carries out the necessary actions to kill, and finally, the living being ends up dead.
-If all necessary steps are completed, then it is called a kammā patha. That will bring the full kammic force of taking a life.
-The more parts completed, the greater the effect.
C would not be involved in the activities of Group A if they took place.
– So, C would not be responsible for any of the four steps, except for the last step. It is possible that C could have prevented those murders. Of course, since C would not be involved in the killings in any way, the effect could be less for that step.
The more serious issue could be the issue of compassion. C could prevent a large loss of life by exposing the plot.
– If C did not warn, and if a lot of people got killed, that could haunt C for a long time.
It is not easy to resolve the kammic consequences of complex cases like this.
Unless this is a real issue, it is not even worth to contemplate too much on “theoretical” cases like this one.
September 5, 2020 at 3:43 am #31933TripleGemStudentParticipant
Thank you y not. Much merits to you as well. May these merits help us all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
Group B plans, carry’s out, and some takes delight/pleasure in these papa kamma’s. Some intents to kill, while others only care about maximum profits, willing to commit any papa and akusala kamma’s. The papa and akusala kamma’s being committed is mostly random, sometimes targeted. Like a bomb going off and hurting people.
Saddest part is Group A is so blind/deluded/ignorant, that they unconsciously willing to let Group B, plan/carry out these papa kamma’s in front of their faces without even knowing it’s happening. For some, even if people are able to show/provide evidence to them. Majority in group A would think it’s not possible/the evidence is false/doesn’t care. As well, they are the very same people that allows/put the people in Group B in power. Group B controls the whole world in every aspects. Governments/Health industry/Finance/World Organizations/media, etc . . .
Why person C hesitates to tell/show the people in group A is because some of the characteristics of the people in Group A being described as above. As well if people in Group A know’s what people in group B is planning/carrying out, it could create even more hate/anger/fear. Person C could argue, the phase “ignorance is bliss” could be applied for this case . . .
Lal says “Unless this is a real issue, it is not even worth to contemplate too much on “theoretical” cases like this one.”
Unfortunately Person C sees/knows/thinks this is a real case with the same conviction like he has for the triple gem. In fact, he/she believes that this real case has been happening for thousands of years, in the present, and will continue to do so in the future. One can let their imagination run wild, whatever papa kamma one can think off. Person C can almost guarantee it’s being committed and might be even worse than what one can imagine.
Person C is in group A, fortunately he/she has the triple gem. Let’s say, person C thinks if he/she didn’t know the triple gem. Dying naturally asap would be the best choice than what some of the people in Group A will have to go through. Imagine the people in group A are being poisoned slowly (getting sicker). Food and medicine that’s suppose to help people, only makes/keeps them sick. While going through life, being/continue to be exploited at every chance. Continuous being lied to from the very people that’s SUPPOSE TO PROTECT AND SERVER THEM. All one has worked for is being stolen from all because of manipulation, lies, deceptions and greed. For some, not only they have to deal with physical pain/illness, but also the mental torture of how they are going to pay their bills, when they can eat their next meal, how they and their family can survive or if they have shelter. The saddest thing is that the people in Group A doesn’t even know/see/care this is happening. Even if one knows/sees without wisdom, they are still not able to do anything about it. One is so blindly attached to this world, they are almost forced to commit akusala or papa kamma deeds just to survive or have a more “comfortable” life. Tell me, if one knows/sees/convinced about all this, without the triple gem. How does one move forward in this kind of world or situation?
One might say, well Person C better try to tell/show Group A !! But it’s not that simple, Person C also sees/knows/understands that even if he/she can stop all this. What’s to guarantee that person C can stop it a second time and it’s not going to happen again? Person C will share why he/she is totally helpless in these worldly affairs :) I’ll continue on later. May you all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
September 5, 2020 at 8:44 am #31934
In real terms, this is not an altogether theoretical situation. Substitute the two groups with the ruled and the rulers, and ‘C’ with any decent and humane individual, and we have the state of affairs in which the world has always been. And quite apart from any considerations as to magga phala, for that matter.
Governments, regimes, emperors, all types of rulers set out to change, if not the world,the realm where they have influence. But the prime aim remains their own personal interests. The’good and just’,the idealists, the ‘peaceful revolutionaries’ also try to change the world but without any personal motive attached.
One exception in the first category was Emperor Asoka. How did he set out? By changing himself, by turning from the bloody ways of his ancestors. He changed himself FIRST, becoming an ardent follower of the Buddha. He thereby benefited his subjects in both ways – the material and the supermundane.
I have nothing more to add to this.
September 16, 2020 at 10:47 pm #32058TripleGemStudentParticipant
Y not says:
“In real terms, this is not an altogether theoretical situation. Substitute the two groups with the ruled and the rulers”
Indeed . .
Let’s say unfortunately in our present time, we don’t have someone like Emperor Asoka ruling over the planet. From person C current perspective, Emperor Asoka is seen as a hope/wish/ideal,and doesn’t resolve person C current predicament. Even if Emperor Asoka was alive today, he would be helpless. The only thing he could do is take refuge in the triple gem.
Person C hopes what is being shared here can be of use to one’s own understanding of the Buddha Dhamma. May you all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
We have come to the Buddha from different backgrounds, occupations, habits, hobbies etc . . . For 17 years, person C habit/hobby was looking/following materials/information on papa kamma being committed on the general population. The general population is lied to/ignorant/doesn’t care about/of. Rather you believe him or think what he’s sharing is true or not, person C understands.
Person C truly feels fortunate/blessed to have come across the PureDhamma. As well, feels the 17 years of having this kind of habit/hobby was a prior cause taking effect and helps him/her to see from another view of what Lord Buddha taught about the “Hidden Suffering”.
Based on what person C has come to see/understand/know, one way how he views/feels this world as Anicca: “I have came into a world thinking it was to my liking, but its not or what I wished for. I’m not able keep/maintain what I like from all that I achieve/accomplish/acquire in this world. Dukkha: “Papa kamma is currently being committed, that will affect me, my family, and everybody else at some time/in some point. The frequency and cruelty of these papa kamma will only increase for sometime into the future. He feels dukkha because almost everyone are totally ignorant of the papa kamma being done onto them. One of the saddest thing is, themselves creates/allows it to happen. Anatta: “Even seeing/knowing/thinking this, overall, one is helpless to stop the effects/fruits of certain karma in all living beings who are ignorant of the Dhamma. So sad . . .
With this view/feeling, person C does his best to understand there’s no point of hate/anger/aversion/delusion to any of this.
Being in the present time and place, person C feels super fortunate/grateful/blessed to be where he/she is today. He/she would never want it any different, even in this kind of world. Being born as a human, on the only planet in Buddhist star systems where Lord Buddha is born in. With the family he/she has, coming across Buddha Dhamma taught by Ariya’s, and have the opportunity to learn/practice it. How can one not be grateful, feel fortunate and blessed?
Recalling what Lord Buddha said about taking on the offer of getting stabbed/pierced by 300 spears everyday for 100 years, if it can help one to understand the four noble truths like one never realized before. (Please correct any mistake/make clear of any mistakes I told about this 300 spears teaching. It’s from Sattisata Sutta, used Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation.)
Person C, feels in his current position, even if no one guarantees him that offer. Based on what he knows/understands/sees about the Buddha Dhamma. It’s still worth to take the 300 spears for 100 years (Currently being alive in our worldly current/future circumstances and having to go through the kamma vipaka that’s to come).
Lal from the forum post on agganna sutta
3. Things started going “downhill” when old “bad gati” started to come back in those early humans. With them came more and more hardships.
– Are humans today any better than those early humans? Person C can answer that, most likely/definitely not.
“With them came more and more hardships”
– You got that right, and it’s going to be more and more and more and more hardships. I wish us all the best. May we all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
“Things started going downhill when old bad gati started to come back.”
-If things are going downhill back then, then person C will describe our world, the humans today and into the future for long periods of time as “falling off a cliff”.
4. After long times (probably hundreds of millions of years), they lost “free food” and had to grow food
– Yup, we have to grow food, currently/soon the food that will be grown/eaten, I wouldn’t even call it food. Let’s call it, scientific man-made food/non-nutrious/poison. Yummm
5. Furthermore, their desire for sexual relationships also cam back, and that is when the bodies got denser and sex organs started to appear.
– Sex with spouse okay. Sex with other that are of appropriate age okay. But that’s not enough now. *Coughs* certain people need their papa kamma fantasy fulfill by under agers now. Oh wait, that has been happening for thousands of years. Welcome to the new norm/world.
To finish up all this, person C will share what choices he has decided to make out of all this or what choices he thinks is the most skillful/wise in the scenario described from the opening post. Even he is surprised at himself for being able to choose these choices and what he will be sharing, his only hope is, it will help one to attain Nibbana.
Ohhh that’s right, person C almost forgot to share this little teaser. Think of what’s happening in the world right now and add this little teaser to it (barely the tip of the ice berg hahaha . . . ) Think of it as you like :)
Bill Gates direct quote
“The world has 6.8 billion people . . . that’s headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 to 15 percent”
I wish us all the best :) —To be continued—
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