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Just thought of;
We been satta’s since no discernable beginning which means we been doing Sakkaya Samudaya. Avija and the 4 other causes in Sakkaya Samudaya causing the 5 effects, would give rise to a satta. As long as a satta has avija, the perception of a “self” will always be there since this perception of a “self” can be equated to avija. It seems like Sakkaya samudaya is what causes/give rise/ maintains Sakkaya ditthi while Sakkaya ditthi in turns fuels/feeds Sakkaya samudaya, feeding each other.
Just would like to share something that might be of benefit to others in understanding about the 4 noble truths.
from 19:40-29:02 minutes.This is the only resource/material in English so far that I came across that gives an explanation of what the “Pi” is in jati-pi dukkha, jara-pi dukkha, maranam-pi dukkha from the first noble truth. If the “pi” is piya like mentioned in the video then that really opens up some new possibilities for a individual to gain further understanding about the noble truths.
Just wondering if anyone else come across any teachings or have any opinions on what is taught in the video in regards to “pi” from the first noble truth?
For those who don’t know what piya is, this is what I found from doing a search on the puredhamma website.
“6. We attach to things that we like. This “attachment” is described in several ways by the Buddha: icchā, taṇhā, nandi, piya, kāma, etc. When exposed to such ‘likable things” in this world, we become joyful and try to get more of them, even using immoral deeds.”
As well there’s this sutta. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tipitaka/mn/mn.087.than.html
I feel that I might have something to contribute to this discussion.
Lal says:
“One becomes a Sotapnna Anugami by hearing/reading about these explanations. If one really comprehends, one ‘sees” that the rebirth process is a “cause and effect” effect and that there is no “self” or a “soul” going through various rebirths. However, since there is a causal connection among all those rebirths, one cannot also say that rebirth happens without there being a previous “satta” existing in one of the realms.”
Sometime ago, a sudden thought came to my mind. I asked myself “why am I practicing the Buddha dhamma for?” Since after this jati, if there’s a next bhava/jati, I wouldn’t be able to remember anything from this jati, as well it won’t be the current “I/me/self” that is suffering or enjoying, why should I care what happens to my next bhava/jati? The interesting thing is my wife asked me the exact same question a few weeks later when I was trying to explain the Buddha dhamma to her. Luckily, I was able to come up with an answer for myself right away, otherwise I would’ve had a difficult time to continue my Buddha dhamma practice. The answers that I was able to come up for myself are:
#1. To reduce/remove/minimize the amount of suffering that this jati has to go through, but this is not the most important thing. The most important thing is
#2. If I’m not able to attain Nibbana in this very jati, I know the next bhava/jati would have to go through some form of suffering. The next bhava/jati would most likely do harm to oneself and as well to other living beings. I do not wish/like/want or at least minimize the next bhava/jati suffering, but most importantly not hurting oneself or other living beings. It’s like . . I do not want/wish to create more suffering in this world for any living beings currently and into the future. This is the main reason why I walk the noble eightfold path.
It’s also kinda interesting, but I find thinking this way is also like Metta bhavana. I believe this is what works for me in regards to Metta bhavana.
#3. Another way to answer the question that I had for myself is to see my next bhava/jati as my own children. I’m sure almost all parents can agree that they would want the very best for their children. I would like/wish the very best for my next bhava/jati if I’m not able to attain Nibbana. I hope to minimize the amount of suffering the next bhava/jati would have to go through and most importantly, finish walking the noble eightfold path and eventually attain Nibbana.
Thinking in the above ways, I feel it’s no longer all about a “me/I/self”. I started contemplating more about the five aggregates and trying to see deeper that this “me/I/self” is really nothing more than the five aggregates with gati/asava’s and avija/moha creating this “I/me/self” view. Simplifying things for myself, really I’m just the five aggregates that attaches/seeks the five aggregates to create assada. Pancakkhandha —> panca upadanakkhanda —> pancakkhanda —> panca upadanakkhanda and continues on until I can put a stop to the upadanakkhanda.
Lal says
“So, it is an interesting point. Furthermore, he seems to think that the “phala moment” can come at any time, not necessarily while listening to a discourse.”
I don’t know if or when I attained any phala moments, but from my own experiences. Most of my profound moments comes from contemplation after I read something on this website or listen to some sermons or out of nowhere. If I felt that I read or listened to something that is important at that moment, I would stop reading or listening and start contemplating on what I felt was important to me at that time and sometimes I would get profound insights/moments. Hardly that I can remember that I would get profound moments while I’m actively reading or listening, but maybe this is how things work for me at this moment. I’m sure some can gain profound insights while actively listening or reading. As well, sometimes out of nowhere, while I’m not reading or listening, the Buddha dhamma would come to my mind and sometimes I would get profound insights/moments then.
Walking on the noble eightfold path would be so difficult without kalana mitta’s, especially ariya one’s. I have been unsure of my own answer to what I asked in my previous post for a few weeks. I feel it’s so important to get feedback on what one contemplates and comprehends to make sure one doesn’t have the wrong views about the Buddha Dhamma.
Thank you Lal and everyone else for your time and responding accordingly to what one feel is appropriate. It’s a tremendous help and beneficial. Thank you again. Saddhu saddhu saddhu.
Lal says:
“We need to ALWAYS think about suffering from INSIGHT/WISDOM, and NOT with FEELINGS”
I believe examples of that would be seeing “dukkha” from anicca, P.S., Assada/Adinava/Nissarana. As well like you emphasize “suffering in the rebirth process” and “future suffering”.
May any merits obtained from this discussion, be shared/offered to all the worldly living beings wherever they might be. May the power of these merits help all worldly living beings attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana. Saddhu saddhu saddhu.
Waharaka Thero – Universal Truth Exposure | Episode 07 – Know the Thilakuna
Have I understood this correctly? At 39:57 of the video. The subtitle says the “Dukkhaskandha (the aggregate of suffering) is panchaskandha. Is that the same as saying the pancakkhandha is dukkha?
I have been contemplating on this recently and still am. “Is the Pancakkhandha dukkha?” The answer that I’m able to come up with, pancakkhandha “is” dukkha, but it’s not the cause of dukkha. To me “is” and “cause” of dukkha is two different things, but can be one of the same. The “cause” of dukkha is of course the panca upadanakkhandha or tanha. From what I contemplated on, the Panca upadanakkhanda is the kamma or the causes of dukkha, while pancakkhandha is the vipaka or the effect of dukkha. One can argue that there is sukha vipaka in the pancakkhandha, but the sukha vipaka is anicca and anatta for sure. It’s like the bait on the fishing hook. The pancakkhandha is the bait, while the panca upadanakkhandha is biting on the bait.
Or
Another way that I support my answer to the question “Is the pancakkhandha dukkha?”. Is that the pancakkhandha belongs to this world that is anicca, dukkha, anatta or “Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti “. Nibbana, which is the end of suffering, there is no pancakkhandha. There’s also other ways that I can think of to support my answer. If anyone has any feedback or notice any gaps in my understanding, please do share.
The way I see dukkha dukkha is the first dukkha comes from Anicca -> dukkha or “Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti” from the P.S. As long as I’m anywhere in the 31 realms of existence, I would still consider myself in the whole mass of suffering or dukkha
The second dukkha comes from what Lal had mentioned kamma vipaka, body pains, illnesses, etc . . . or something simple such as being hungry, being too cold, etc . . .
Why this makes sense to me is because Lal mentions that there’s very little dukkha dukkha in the higher realms while there’s more dukkha dukkha in the lower realms. If one is in the highest realms, I believe they would have very little or next to none dukkha kamma vipaka’s. But even if that’s the case, the sukha that one is enjoying in the higher realms is still considered as Anicca therefore it will still lead to dukkha and as well one is still in Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti or whole mass of suffering.
In the lowest realms any relief from dukkha would be anicca, as well one is in Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti or whole mass of suffering. The second dukkha that comes from kamma vipaka would be the most prevalent there. The opposite of being in the higher realms.
Because it’s dukkha dukkha, not dukha dukha, both the dukkha dukkha can be removed or put an end to but attaining Nibbana. When one attains Nibbana, one is no longer in a world that’s anicca or Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti or whole mass of suffering. Thereby removing the first dukkha. As well when one attains Nibbana, one is no longer subject to dukkha that comes from kamma vipaka, thereby removing the second dukkha.
This is what makes sense to me so far, if anyone has any advice/opinions/feedback please advise. I’m looking to improve my understanding/knowing/seeing of the Buddha Dhamma and to make sure my understanding/knowing/seeing of the Buddha Dhamma remains consistent with the Buddha Dhamma taught by Lord Buddha. That’s why it’s important that we have Buddha Dhamma friends, to help us see/know/understand certain things in regards to the Buddha Dhamma that we didn’t know or thought about or able to see ourselves.
with Metta,
Glad to see a few of us discussing the Buddha Dhamma :)
Lal said:
“It is the sota pasada rupa that makes it possible to communicate with others.
– Rupavcara Brahmas (as well as human gandhabbas) communicate directly (without words) via that sota pasada rupa.
– Arupavacara Brahmas (and those in the asanna realm) do not have the sota pasada rupa. That is why they cannot communicate with others.”That’s exactly what I thought, I wasn’t sure of my own answer though because I thought one might need a mouth as well to communicate through sound. I was thinking, if Rupavcara Brahmas can communicate with Lord Buddha, but Arupavacara Brahmas aren’t able to, what’s the difference between them? I thought of the sota pasada rupa.
Thanks to you Lal, Seng Kiat, Y not and Sharma for participating on this discussion. I don’t have anything else to add, as my questions are answered in regards to this topic.
Nibbana parama sukhaya sukithatara wethwa to you all !
Much thanks and merits to Seng Kiat and Lal.
I thought of a good question to ask that I believe can bring a beneficial conclusion to this topic.
For rupa Brahma’s since they are missing the faculties of “touch” and “taste”. Without taste, that means they don’t have a mouth. How do they communicate with Lord Buddha?
Sharma said:
-Space is infinite, all-pervasive, eternal, so is consciousness?
-Is it also possible to perceive the entire universe while being in contact with infinite space and infinite consciousness?
– Both space and consciousness are subtler than the Suddashtaka?I suggest you read this post
Sharma, what is the main goal for the people practicing Buddhism? Do you even want to attain infinite consciousness, if it’s even possible besides a Buddha . . ? Do you have the time to do so?
There’s a story about a yogi whom wanted to explore the whole universe. He ended up getting lost and died. There’s also a story about one of Lord Buddha’s disciple who wanted to explore the universe, he ended up getting lost. Lucky for him, Lord Buddha was able to find him.
Sharma said:
Memory records from beginning-less time are stored in the consciousness property. In other words, what we have thought, done, everything. (I wonder if the rumors’ of Akashic records originated from that, except it should be Vinnanic, not Akashic.) is that correct? could it also be possible to retrieve those records for one self?
– I suggest you read these two post and as well do a search on this website on “Nama gota”
I can’t say for certain as I only have a general idea of what the Akashic records are, but I’m pretty sure the Akashic records is the same as the Nama gota or the concept anyways . . .
Sharma said
“I would recommend this book. It shows the immense(but ultimately) limited possibilities of attaining anariya jhanas.”
Thank you for the recommendations, but anyone that understands the Buddha Dhamma and the rebirth process would know this already. It might not be the best use of time reading some book about it when one can just focus on the Buddha Dhamma and they would learn that from it. As well, one can see the example of Devadatta for the easiest and quickest example . . .
with Metta,
I can’t say I have read many sutta’s, but I did a quick search and couldn’t find any material states “that Venerable Ugga obtained Arhatship in the pure abodes and came to Buddha to tell about it and pay his respects” I thought if any sutta’s stated this, it would be here https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms (paticca samuppada vibhanga) but didn’t see anything in there.
It’s like Lal says, “need to verify that”.
Sharma, instead of reading other commentaries that’s not included in the Tipitaka. I suggest you go straight to the sutta’s in the Tipitaka, even though the English translations might not be the best.
I started to do this, sometimes comparing the English words to the Pali words in the Sutta’s and with my own understanding/know/seeing of the Buddha Dhamma, I try to make sense for myself what the Sutta is saying. I’m actually having some ah-ha moments when doing this, although I’m not always right about things, but this process really makes me reflect and contemplate on the Buddha Dhamma that I have learned. It’s been a beneficial process, but one will need a kalana mitta to help confirm what you have contemplated on and set you straight if you got the wrong ideas/concepts.
With Metta,
Suwapath wewa Lal,
Thank you for your reply. May any merits obtained from this sharing of the Buddha Dhamma, be shared with all the worldly living beings and help us all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana. Saddhu saddhu saddhu.
I feel that I made some small improvement in my thinking in regards to pleasure vs suffering in the rebirth process. I thought I would share it.
Imagine if someone offered you #1. That out of 365 days, you can spend 364 days in the deva & brahma realms and only 1 day in the lowest hell realms in exchange for not learning/practicing the Buddha Dhamma vs #2. 364 days of suffering in the human realm and 1 day of pleasure in the realms above humans. Your guaranteed to attain Nibbana within 7 existences. I’m sure the people who understands/see’s and is fully convinced of the Buddha Dhamma would take the second choice, but what about others if such an offer fell onto one’s lap?
This is how I would see choice #1 from Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta.
Anicca = Not to our liking, meaning even if I got what I like/desire for, in the end I’ll never be able to keep it or maintain it to the way I like. If I have understood Waharaka Thero correctly, he taught that one way to see Anicca is that if anything that’s Anicca, it’s vexatious. Although it’s very subtle, but sensual pleasures are vexatious. Even though one is enjoying pleasures, it’s vexatious because #1 one cannot keep or maintain the sensual pleasure to our liking. Even if we can keep the same sensual pleasure, the law of diminishing returns sets in #2 when it’s gone, we want more of it. Thereby creating further craving (tanha)/liking/wanting to fulfill the 5 aggregates. #3 When we have tanha and we don’t get what we want, it’s vexatious.
Dukkha = When we can’t keep or maintain the things we like them to be, we suffer FROM AND FOR it.
– What I mean by suffering FROM it, means it’s vexatious when we can’t keep or maintain the things we like them to be and wanting things to be to our liking but not getting it.
– What I mean by FOR it, is that we have to keep doing abhisankhara just trying to maintain/keep what we like or trying to get what we like. When we do abhisankhara, we are exhausting ourselves physically and mentally and keeping us in the rebirth process. Worse if we’re not careful and end up doing dasa akusala or apunnabi abhisankhara, we know the consequences . . .Anatta = If I’m trying to get what I like, but I’ll never end up getting what I like. It’s a helpless cause. It’s like trying to fill up a bucket with gold, but there’s a hole in the bottom of the bucket. Tell me that’s not a helpless cause :D
– As well it makes one helpless being in sansara, because one will just keep trying to get, keep and maintain what they like, but it will never happen. Worse, they end up in the apaya’s, then they are truly helpless. All of this suffering/pleasures there is no essence to it.So what would one choose? 364 days of pleasure and 1 day of suffering in hell. These pleasures are essence less, one can’t keep, maintain those pleasure. Because of that one suffers FROM and FOR it, as well one becomes a helpless cause in Sansara.
vs.
There’s a teaching in the Buddha Dhamma “If someone offered you, to be pierced by 100 spears a day for 100 years, in exchange you will know the four noble truths like never before”
364 days of suffering in the human realm, but one will know the four noble truths like never before.What would one choose? :)
I’ll choose to take the 100 spears and put an end to this suffering/pleasure cycle (rebirth process) as soon as I can because it’s a “helpless” cause to be in sansara.
Y not says:
“In real terms, this is not an altogether theoretical situation. Substitute the two groups with the ruled and the rulers”
Indeed . .
Let’s say unfortunately in our present time, we don’t have someone like Emperor Asoka ruling over the planet. From person C current perspective, Emperor Asoka is seen as a hope/wish/ideal,and doesn’t resolve person C current predicament. Even if Emperor Asoka was alive today, he would be helpless. The only thing he could do is take refuge in the triple gem.
Person C hopes what is being shared here can be of use to one’s own understanding of the Buddha Dhamma. May you all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
We have come to the Buddha from different backgrounds, occupations, habits, hobbies etc . . . For 17 years, person C habit/hobby was looking/following materials/information on papa kamma being committed on the general population. The general population is lied to/ignorant/doesn’t care about/of. Rather you believe him or think what he’s sharing is true or not, person C understands.
Person C truly feels fortunate/blessed to have come across the PureDhamma. As well, feels the 17 years of having this kind of habit/hobby was a prior cause taking effect and helps him/her to see from another view of what Lord Buddha taught about the “Hidden Suffering”.
Based on what person C has come to see/understand/know, one way how he views/feels this world as Anicca: “I have came into a world thinking it was to my liking, but its not or what I wished for. I’m not able keep/maintain what I like from all that I achieve/accomplish/acquire in this world. Dukkha: “Papa kamma is currently being committed, that will affect me, my family, and everybody else at some time/in some point. The frequency and cruelty of these papa kamma will only increase for sometime into the future. He feels dukkha because almost everyone are totally ignorant of the papa kamma being done onto them. One of the saddest thing is, themselves creates/allows it to happen. Anatta: “Even seeing/knowing/thinking this, overall, one is helpless to stop the effects/fruits of certain karma in all living beings who are ignorant of the Dhamma. So sad . . .
With this view/feeling, person C does his best to understand there’s no point of hate/anger/aversion/delusion to any of this.
Being in the present time and place, person C feels super fortunate/grateful/blessed to be where he/she is today. He/she would never want it any different, even in this kind of world. Being born as a human, on the only planet in Buddhist star systems where Lord Buddha is born in. With the family he/she has, coming across Buddha Dhamma taught by Ariya’s, and have the opportunity to learn/practice it. How can one not be grateful, feel fortunate and blessed?
Recalling what Lord Buddha said about taking on the offer of getting stabbed/pierced by 300 spears everyday for 100 years, if it can help one to understand the four noble truths like one never realized before. (Please correct any mistake/make clear of any mistakes I told about this 300 spears teaching. It’s from Sattisata Sutta, used Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation.)
Person C, feels in his current position, even if no one guarantees him that offer. Based on what he knows/understands/sees about the Buddha Dhamma. It’s still worth to take the 300 spears for 100 years (Currently being alive in our worldly current/future circumstances and having to go through the kamma vipaka that’s to come).
Lal from the forum post on agganna sutta
3. Things started going “downhill” when old “bad gati” started to come back in those early humans. With them came more and more hardships.
– Are humans today any better than those early humans? Person C can answer that, most likely/definitely not.
“With them came more and more hardships”
– You got that right, and it’s going to be more and more and more and more hardships. I wish us all the best. May we all attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
“Things started going downhill when old bad gati started to come back.”
-If things are going downhill back then, then person C will describe our world, the humans today and into the future for long periods of time as “falling off a cliff”.4. After long times (probably hundreds of millions of years), they lost “free food” and had to grow food
– Yup, we have to grow food, currently/soon the food that will be grown/eaten, I wouldn’t even call it food. Let’s call it, scientific man-made food/non-nutrious/poison. Yummm
5. Furthermore, their desire for sexual relationships also cam back, and that is when the bodies got denser and sex organs started to appear.
– Sex with spouse okay. Sex with other that are of appropriate age okay. But that’s not enough now. *Coughs* certain people need their papa kamma fantasy fulfill by under agers now. Oh wait, that has been happening for thousands of years. Welcome to the new norm/world.
To finish up all this, person C will share what choices he has decided to make out of all this or what choices he thinks is the most skillful/wise in the scenario described from the opening post. Even he is surprised at himself for being able to choose these choices and what he will be sharing, his only hope is, it will help one to attain Nibbana.
Ohhh that’s right, person C almost forgot to share this little teaser. Think of what’s happening in the world right now and add this little teaser to it (barely the tip of the ice berg hahaha . . . ) Think of it as you like :)
Bill Gates direct quote
“The world has 6.8 billion people . . . that’s headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 to 15 percent”I wish us all the best :) —To be continued—
After the e-mail with you Lal, I wrote to y not and I also added this in.
To sum that up or in other words. How can we even start to compare any pleasure gained through sansara vs Nibbana? Anything else besides Nibbana is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. We shouldn’t even think about the pleasure gained in the Brahma worlds in the first place.
Have we forgotten what Lord Buddha taught? :D Putting an stop the rebirth process and attain Nibbana. Why should we even think/talk about how much time we spend in the Brahma worlds or in hell? If we understood Lord Buddha’s teachings, then we should follow his advice. “Make haste and attain Nibbana as soon as possible” Regardless I actually enjoy more years of pleasure in the Brahma realms or not, it’s such a trivia/deluded/incorrect thinking. I should be taking Lord Buddha’s advice to make haste and attain Nibbana as soon as possible, because any pleasure gained in sansara is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and can’t even be compared to Nibbana.
What are we currently learning/practicing/working towards? NIBBANA. Anything short of Magga Phala is almost a failure on our part.
This is how I would answer to myself and others if they ever have similar thought/thinking/idea as Dr. J Chakam and I once did
“I think this discussion has gone far enough.
If there is a critical issue to address here, please send me an email with a BRIEF description.
– If such a critical issue is there, I will post it and address it.”– If that’s the case, I would like to continue my discussion with y not. y not, please send me an e-mail at [email protected]
