November 28, 2020 at 2:21 am #32618Sotapanna anugamiParticipant
This is my complete understanding of any being after knowing about Nirodha Samapati, Please correct me if i am wrong according to Buddha Dhamma. Here ‘Energy’ word is used, it could be seen as synonymous with ‘Sudhastaka’ if someone is uncomfortable to deal with ‘Energy’, it’s an abstract word anyways. I would suggest to read it to the end atleast once, because some things are explained in entirety, later.
So, Any being exists as Rupa loka and Nama loka, at death these cease to exist and new Rupa and Nama loka is created by the kammic energy due to Kamma Bija due to the Sankhara done previously. And in an Arahant avijjasava is removed, so in PS Tanha Paccaya Upadana step, he has no Asavas left for Upadana to arise, and at Parinibbana, no bhava in 31 realms will be grasped. Now, then an Arahant cultivates all arupavachara Jhanas and get to Nirodha Samapati, which is same as Parinibbana but the Kamaja Kaya still exist, and then at Parinibbana no new Bhava is grasped so No new Kamaja Kaya is created due to Kamma bija because Asavas for them is removed.
So any being is like a fire; flames and wood cannot be individually said as Fire but collectively, it is a fire. In same way a Karaja, utuja, cittaja, and kamaja kaya cannot be said individually as a human but collectively its called a human. The problem is that this collection is subjected to suffering and these Kaya exists due to their corresponding causes, the intial cause was Asavas, and it’s removal will not create any of them at cuti patīsandhi moment and one will be free from suffering and existence, Existence is suffering because it has dukha dukha, one is striving to convert into other, it cannot remain constant or stable, inhaled breath wants to fuse into exhaled breath and vice-versa every single moment; sitting one way wants to become other changing the posture and this is a never ending process. Thats why all beings suffer from Dukha dukha every single moment. And thus existence anywhere is suffering, existence is itself suffering. Death is just a transition,before is existence after is existene. But As Lal sir said there is nothing as annihilation of an being because there was no self to start with, it was a permutation of energy in a certain way and is subjected to suffer. Now, after Parinibbana, this permutation of energy does not exist, energy can be arranged in any way, in a certain way it is said to be a being, when this certain way is distorted,changed this new arrangement is not said as a being.
We can say ourselves arrangement of energy in a certain way, but it’s nature is that It SUFFERS. If arrangement is changed, then there would be no suffering, that’s what happen in Nirodha Samapati(No cittaja Kaya), arrangement is changed, this new arrangement is not subjected to suffer. Similarly, in Nibbana, THIS PARTICULAR arrangement of 4 Kayas does not exist, so, it is also not subjected to suffer. Now, then what exists? This doesn’t matter, The only thing which matters is that Nibbāna is Permuntation or existence or non-existence which is not subjected to suffering like permuntation of energy in 31 realms of existence. And also Nibbana is not of this world.
-Dukkha dukha, tendency to change and suffer is taken from Venerable Waharakha Thero’s desana. And on this site Dukkha dukha is said as Physical pain, i think it goes hand-in-hand with tendency to change and suffer, when body get’s distorted. Please correct me if i am misleading, Venerable Thero’s Desana
November 28, 2020 at 9:50 am #32619cubibobiParticipant
You said about dukkha dukkha:
“… all beings suffer from Dukha dukha every single moment.”
My understanding is that it is always dukkha in the long run (until magga phala), and the most intense dukkha is in the apāyā.
The apāyā may be where dukkha is every single moment. In the kama loka from the human realm up, there is plenty of āmisa sukha to be had, and this is why we’re bound. Lal has many posts on āmisa sukha vs nirāmisa sukha.
In the brahma loka, beings just enjoy jhanic pleasures for the duration of the bhava.
Thank you for posting the desana of Waharaka Thero.
November 28, 2020 at 11:13 am #32620LalKeymaster
Sotapanna Anugami wrote: “Dukkha dukha, tendency to change and suffer is taken from Venerable Waharakha Thero’s desana.”
– Waharaka Thero’s desanas are sometimes not translated correctly. The English translation can depend on the translator. I have emphasized that in the thread that has several of Waharaka desana translated. P.S. See my comment on June 13, 2020 at 6:58 am at “Waharaka Thero English Subs Discourse”
– That is why I translated one of them. But it takes too much time.
– So, I want to emphasize that SOME parts of the Waharaka desanas may not be correctly translated.
The three types of dukkha can be summarized as follows:
– Dukkha dukkha is mainly kamma vipaka that manifest in the physical body: injuries, sicknesses, body aches/pains, etc.
– Sankhara dukkha is the suffering associated with one’s efforts to acquire more sensory pleasures. One has to work hard to make a living and to acquire “things’ that we perceive to provide happiness.
– Those things that we acquire breakdown and break apart. Furthermore, our bodies also start degrading at old age and die. Both those lead to distress and that is the viparinama dukkha.
Those are the main ideas but can be described in more detail.
– See, for example, “Introduction – What is Suffering?“
November 28, 2020 at 10:40 pm #32624Sotapanna anugamiParticipant
Thank you Mr.Lang and Lal sir for clearing my misunderstanding.
… all beings suffer from Dukha dukha every single moment.”
Yes, it should not be Dukkha dukkha, but it could be our inability to maintain our current Bhava(any state of mind or body) for long, which is of anicca nature and will lead to dukha if we get attached to that state or bhava.
But we will only get helpless if we have craving for that bhava in the first place. And thus, we can choose not crave for it and see its drawbacks, and thus by removing asavas, we can avoid much of the suffering caused by that craving. and eventually remove all future suffering by attaining Nibbana.
-And I think having nicca nature of Bhava will cause Vipareenama dukha.
November 29, 2020 at 11:27 am #32626TripleGemStudentParticipant
The way I see dukkha dukkha is the first dukkha comes from Anicca -> dukkha or “Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti” from the P.S. As long as I’m anywhere in the 31 realms of existence, I would still consider myself in the whole mass of suffering or dukkha
The second dukkha comes from what Lal had mentioned kamma vipaka, body pains, illnesses, etc . . . or something simple such as being hungry, being too cold, etc . . .
Why this makes sense to me is because Lal mentions that there’s very little dukkha dukkha in the higher realms while there’s more dukkha dukkha in the lower realms. If one is in the highest realms, I believe they would have very little or next to none dukkha kamma vipaka’s. But even if that’s the case, the sukha that one is enjoying in the higher realms is still considered as Anicca therefore it will still lead to dukkha and as well one is still in Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti or whole mass of suffering.
In the lowest realms any relief from dukkha would be anicca, as well one is in Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti or whole mass of suffering. The second dukkha that comes from kamma vipaka would be the most prevalent there. The opposite of being in the higher realms.
Because it’s dukkha dukkha, not dukha dukha, both the dukkha dukkha can be removed or put an end to but attaining Nibbana. When one attains Nibbana, one is no longer in a world that’s anicca or Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti or whole mass of suffering. Thereby removing the first dukkha. As well when one attains Nibbana, one is no longer subject to dukkha that comes from kamma vipaka, thereby removing the second dukkha.
This is what makes sense to me so far, if anyone has any advice/opinions/feedback please advise. I’m looking to improve my understanding/knowing/seeing of the Buddha Dhamma and to make sure my understanding/knowing/seeing of the Buddha Dhamma remains consistent with the Buddha Dhamma taught by Lord Buddha. That’s why it’s important that we have Buddha Dhamma friends, to help us see/know/understand certain things in regards to the Buddha Dhamma that we didn’t know or thought about or able to see ourselves.
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